Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[goonersid]

Gone a bit quiet in here.

A few wins changes nothing for me Nutty. I dont think Arteta has the experience to take the club back to where we belong. Emery had a 22 game unbeaten run. Do I think he was the right man for the job? No.

I can't help but feel this temporary good league run will be just that - temporary - and Arteta will persist with poor players and stupid decisions and we will go on another run of terrible results.

Would love to be proved wrong though.

I admit it was click bait, I will let you lot carry on until the end of the season then review. Has Arteta made some mistakes, hell yeah. Are there managers out there that could do better, probably. But the thing is in 2021 where Arsenal belong is a lot lower than a lot of Gooners have got used to in years gone by. That's down to the owner more than anyone else.

Preaching to the converted there mate! I said the same long before even Wenger got the chop.

I liked Arteta as a player. There was a two season spell where he was our most consistent player, and was quite an intelligent DM without being Hollywood in the role.

But my concern with him as a manager has always been his lack of experience. I do get the feeling he may develop into a good - maybe even great - manager but I also think that would be 10 years down the road, and we are too big a club to be his learning curve.

I think 10 years is a bit harsh, if he is to become a great manager, then I would expect to see evidence and rewards after a couple of seasons.

[SteveO 35]

Domestic Cups were the only way to save the season.
He’d play best team in these competitions.
I think he’s “arrogant” to snob the Cups
No bright future at the moment for us

Absolute bollocks!
Domestic cups are the way to keep shit managers in jobs!

Moving on from the domestic cups which have gone now.....

Where do you stand on the Europa then Sid? Say we finish 8th and win the Europa League......is that a good thing because of the prize itself and CL football? Or not so good because it keeps him employed and covers over the bang average/shite league form?

Personally I'd never say no to any trophy, even though I'm certain that last season's FA Cup win kept him in the job this long. If we'd finished 8th last season and lost that final......then slipped to 15th this year......I'm 90% certain they would have pulled the trigger. However, despite my grave reservations about him as a manager, I couldn't ever say 'no' to any of the cups

[goonersid]

Domestic Cups were the only way to save the season.
He’d play best team in these competitions.
I think he’s “arrogant” to snob the Cups
No bright future at the moment for us

Absolute bollocks!
Domestic cups are the way to keep shit managers in jobs!

Moving on from the domestic cups which have gone now.....

Where do you stand on the Europa then Sid? Say we finish 8th and win the Europa League......is that a good thing because of the prize itself and CL football? Or not so good because it keeps him employed and covers over the bang average/shite league form?

Personally I'd never say no to any trophy, even though I'm certain that last season's FA Cup win kept him in the job this long. If we'd finished 8th last season and lost that final......then slipped to 15th this year......I'm 90% certain they would have pulled the trigger. However, despite my grave reservations about him as a manager, I couldn't ever say 'no' to any of the cups

Personally, I think if we finished 8th, that would mean weaker squads have finished above us, that for me is failure to perform over the course of the season. Whereby, I would want Arteta sacked.(but i think he'd still get more time)
If we were to win the Elge, then, cup football is papering over the real issues.
I don't agree they'd have sacked him if we'd lost the cup final then had our "slow start", because there were too many problems behind the scenes that still needed resolved.
Arteta has sorted as many of those that could reasonably be expected in the current window, he now has little excuse if we under perform.
I am slowly regaining some confidence in Arteta, however I don't want to be sitting on the fence going into next season and whilst it's nice to win a cup, I'm happy to forsake one this season unless backed up by a decent finish in the league ( not an emery 5th when we should have been top 4 )

[GoonerMuzz]

This is a tough call to be honest, simply put he should have been sacked when we were languishing in 16th however he wasn't.

Now IF we did end up top 6 the question of whether he should be sacked becomes skewed. Whether we like it or not in comparison to where we were earlier in the season it would be a marked improvement and by hook or by crook he would have managed to turn things round and to get the squad performing nearer to where it should be therefore over the period he has potentially learned from his mistakes and improved his managment skills.

Throw in as a possibility of winning the Europa or even reaching the final this season and you cannot honestly justify sacking him much as i might want to..... There are teams in the Europa this season who we could meet who are on paper better than those when Emery took us to the final so potentially our run to get there could be harder and subsequently our performance could have been better.

Basically it is all academic until what happens happens but with the hypotheticals posted by both Steve and Sid, if any other supporters were calling for their manager to be sacked having achieved those 'improvements' we'd be laughing our tits off at them and saying they were spoiled brats

I'll reiterate what i've said before, he should never have been appointed, he should have been sacked in November but if he managed to achieve the above then i'm not sure sacking him would be justifiable at the end of the season. We need to open our eyes and stop looking at ourselves with Rose tinted glasses, we are not the Arsenal of the 90's and early 2000's and our overall squad is really poor as is our manager therefore our expectations need to be realistic..... that will not be popular i know but that is the reality of the Kroenke's Arsenal and the sooner the *word censored* fuck off the better

[Clummo99]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

[augie]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

On a personal level I compare to them to what is out there now, and as I continually say, there are two (maybe three) better teams on paper than we have and I dont care how bad/average other fans say we are - I always said about latter wenger years that it wasnt the lack of a challenge for the big trophies that pissed me off, but more down to the fact that he wasnt getting all he could from the players he had at his disposable, and he should have recruited better with the funds he had. In my opinion the situation is very similar with arteta and imo he hasnt turned our season around due to any great change on his behalf, but more by fluke as his old favourites were injured or suspended and he had no choice but to change up the team. Regardless of how it happened the reality is that we are now on a decent run but we shouldnt lose sight of the fact that arteta has had a generous run of fixtures of late, and how he deals with the tough run of games coming up well tell us more about where we are as a team and as a club

[Clummo99]

All good and fair points mate. I can't say I disagree with any of them.

My point exactly (and GM's point if I understand correctly) is that we are what we are now and NOT what we were then. It's like comparing to the Chapman teams of the 30's. Different eras, different times, different football, different world.

Any thinking that we should always be that good is foolish. Football is cyclical and we can all be fairly confident that our time will come around again. History backs this up, let's just hope the wait isn't too long.

[augie]

All good and fair points mate. I can't say I disagree with any of them.

My point exactly (and GM's point if I understand correctly) is that we are what we are now and NOT what we were then. It's like comparing to the Chapman teams of the 30's. Different eras, different times, different football, different world.

Any thinking that we should always be that good is foolish. Football is cyclical and we can all be fairly confident that our time will come around again. History backs this up, let's just hope the wait isn't too long.

I agree with all bar the highlighted part - sad reality (but reality all the same), is that money dominates every level of football now in one guise or another, and under this ownership we will never spend enough to get us back to that top table I fear. Thing is though, that someone like kroenke should bankroll a massive rebuilt in one season to get us back there (or nearly there at least) cos then all it requires is a top up each season - the way we are being run right now is that every year we need to sign at least 4 players every single season so constant spending isnt getting us there

[Clummo99]

All good and fair points mate. I can't say I disagree with any of them.

My point exactly (and GM's point if I understand correctly) is that we are what we are now and NOT what we were then. It's like comparing to the Chapman teams of the 30's. Different eras, different times, different football, different world.

Any thinking that we should always be that good is foolish. Football is cyclical and we can all be fairly confident that our time will come around again. History backs this up, let's just hope the wait isn't too long.

I agree with all bar the highlighted part - sad reality (but reality all the same), is that money dominates every level of football now in one guise or another, and under this ownership we will never spend enough to get us back to that top table I fear. Thing is though, that someone like kroenke should bankroll a massive rebuilt in one season to get us back there (or nearly there at least) cos then all it requires is a top up each season - the way we are being run right now is that every year we need to sign at least 4 players every single season so constant spending isnt getting us there

But that exactly backs up my point of football running in cycles. Arsenal are a great proposition and there are surely many wealthy people out there that aspire to owning such a club. Kronke won't be around forever and any prospective new owner surely wouldn't be as much of a c.unt as the current bloke!

[SteveO 35]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

[Clummo99]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

I honestly don't get your logic or reasoning. You quote my post but then rant on referring to nothing that I actually said. By all means counter my points but don't quote my post if your reply has little to do with what I said.

[SteveO 35]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

I honestly don't get your logic or reasoning. You quote my post but then rant on referring to nothing that I actually said. By all means counter my points but don't quote my post if your reply has little to do with what I said.

You said that too many people compare our team to that of 20 odd years ago, so actually I was agreeing with that point and then extending that argument to say that whilst I agree with that, I do think there's great danger in allowing the standards to keep on dropping. Not quite sure what's so hard to understand about that

[Clummo99]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

I honestly don't get your logic or reasoning. You quote my post but then rant on referring to nothing that I actually said. By all means counter my points but don't quote my post if your reply has little to do with what I said.

You said that too many people compare our team to that of 20 odd years ago, so actually I was agreeing with that point and then extending that argument to say that whilst I agree with that, I do think there's great danger in allowing the standards to keep on dropping. Not quite sure what's so hard to understand about that

I think you said a little bit more than that but anyway...whatever.

[Redarmy]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

I honestly don't get your logic or reasoning. You quote my post but then rant on referring to nothing that I actually said. By all means counter my points but don't quote my post if your reply has little to do with what I said.

You said that too many people compare our team to that of 20 odd years ago, so actually I was agreeing with that point and then extending that argument to say that whilst I agree with that, I do think there's great danger in allowing the standards to keep on dropping. Not quite sure what's so hard to understand about that

I think you said a little bit more than that but anyway...whatever.

Your dad was spot on Clummo....what we witnessed in those times was truly incredible

[goonersid]

Your last paragraph is absolutely spot on GM. Too many people seem to compare the current team to that of 20 odd years ago. The players we have now are mostly 3 or 4 levels below the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires etc. and Wenger was in his prime. They were so exceptional individually and as a team that they simply cannot be used as a yardstick.

After one particular goal in the Invincible's year my Dad turned to me and said "It ain't ever gonna get better than this so enjoy it."

Sadly his prophecy so far has been true.

And yet 2 years ago and at the start of last season it was OK to compare the team to that of 20 years ago? When we finished 5th two years ago that was abject failure......but roll the clock forward 2 years and 8th would be absolutely fine?

Just don't get the logic at all

I think anyone with half a brain understands that the Invincibles was a once in a lifetime gift from the gods, and anyone who thinks we would return to those dizzy heights (or should be expected too) should really go and start supporting Man City. However, should we be doing better than Leicester? Why should Spurs be a better team? Why Everton?

The drop in standards needs to be arrested somewhere down the line. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting we should be on some self appointed pedestal with Manchester City. However, there's also no reason why over the past decade Liverpool should have outstripped us, or Spurs, or Leicester. Their owners all have bigger ambitions, all made bold managerial appointments that transformed them when they were underperfoming. None of those clubs had any commercial advantage over us......we had more than a decade of CL football behind us, a stadium all but paid for, and supposedly a wealth of new commercial deals that were going to fire us upwards

We have an owner that has presided over a decade of failure - endless extensions to Wenger's deals meaning he was 10 years past his sell by date. Emery, wrong choice. Freddie allowed to carry on doing 3 jobs for a month while we fucked about, and then Arteta. A sequence of terrible signings, awful board room appointments etc etc

The Arsenal may never be Invincibles again.....but I'll be fucked if we should accept being a 'cup team' who fuck about in 8th place

Stevo! Emery wasn't sacked because we finished 5th in the league and were humiliated by the chavs un the elge final!!
He was sacked because the following season, he had totally lost the dressing room, Ozil was taking the piss out of him, we were weekly whipping boys, he was becoming an embarassment, we were a laughing stock plummetting down the table and Emery was never ever ever going to turn it around!
He left a bigger mess behind him than Wenger!
I'm not saying Arteta will lead us to glory, but at least he has had the balls to deal with Ozil, Guendopey and co!
There are encouraging signs, small I grant you, but signs nonetheless that we are getting stronger!
It's always been said that the first thing that needs fixed is a poor defence, we where a defensive mess under Emery and he never looked like he could fix it. Arteta has at least stopped us shipping goals and for the first time in years, I don't dread big games, fearing a 4,5,6 or even 8 goal drubbing.
The next few weeks are crucial for both Arteta and the club, if our current league form continues, then we can get a top 4 finish, unthinkable a couple of months ago.
If we return to the performances from early season? Then he can fuck off, but I'm going to wait and see what happens.