The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[Chippy]

You got me worried Chippy , 20 years

If Xhaka does well for us, would you drop that number for Kosovans and Albanians your majesty?

I think Kosovo and Albania will join much quicker than Turkey as they have reasonable governments.

[Chippy]

It's not really the undemocratic nature of the EU or the principle of parliamentary sovereignty that bothers me.

It's that the EU - naturally - looks out for the EU's interests. Other than the tiny minority of staunch Eurosceptics in the EP, expecting any of the EU institutions to want to reign in or check the EU's powers is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. The EU is a supra-national body who can largely define the scope of its own powers, and is naturally packed wth Europhiles so it's hardly surprising that people on both sides of the debate agree that there has been serious mission creep.

The fundamental issue for me really is the European Union expansion post-2000. An economic union with a handful of similar countries meant that it was easier for the EU to please everyone with decisions as the countries had similar goals, needs etc. Now the member state socio-economic demographic is so diverse that they are inevitably going to piss countries off with every major decision - because what's good for Germany, France etc isn't likely to be good for the much smaller and less competitive eastern economies.

Likewise freedom of movement is a wonderful thing in the right economic union and has done a lot of good in Europe - but it has also led to so many welfare tourists to the rich north and undoubtedly on the flip side a severe brain drain from the less competitive economies.

I also don't have much regard for Germany lecturing from on high as self-appointed head of the EU. Just as im sure just about every other country is sick of the UK's endless rhetoric and what they perceive to be throwing toys out of the pram. I don't blame the EU one bit for not allowing more substantial reforms - the reality is that we are 1 of 28 members and shouldn't be able to dictate fundamental changes without mass support. We just have to accept that we have negligible control over the destiny of the EU and this referendum is about whether or not the EU as is is worth being a part of still.

Ah,that old chestnut. Absolutely not true and the Leave campaign know but they are lying non stop now.

In February 2014, 7.7% of working-age individuals receiving 'key out-of-work benefits' were non-UK nationals at the time that they registered for a national insurance number (NiNo). The largest categories were jobseekers' allowance and incapacity benefits. The DWP figures do not include housing benefit, which is paid to working people as well as those out of work.

People born outside of the UK (including—like the DWP data—those who subsequently became citizens) made up 16.2% of the working-age population in the first three months of 2014, according to Migration Observatory analysis of the Labour Force Survey. This suggests that the foreign born are underrepresented among out-of-work benefits recipients.

https://fullfact.org/economy/migration- ... -benefits/



But it's not about immigration. http://action.voteleavetakecontrol.org/immigration

[Chippy]

And thereby hangs the tale .The E.U is a power hungry control freak . The powers Germany and France along with the business houses of the U.K require growth and the best way to get that is to tie in customers to make sure that they buy the products they need from the places you want them to, and increasing the customer base is a sure way to achieve that.
. Every debate seems to become hijacked by immigration which plays into the hands of those that wish to silently force the changes they personally want. Politicians have been doing this for years .Put up a kite to capture headlines whilst something possibly unpopular creeps through under the radar. The E.U are past masters at giving something headlinable with their left hand whilst taking twice as much unnoticed with their right. This referendum is simple , it's not about cheap flights or lower roaming charges , neither is it about how many E.U nationals prop up the NHS. It's about self governing and having the right to vote out a government that we don't want . Something my parent's families and many others died for.
As for the wooly minded politicos arguing that we should remain to force change on it's policies from within , well good luck with that . We couldn't get any significant changes when there were only 6 members , so there is even less chance of them achieving it as our voting capacity diminishes .
Leave now and start this country up again.

At the 2015 election 64% of those that voted did not want a Tory government. The government was elected by 24% of the electorate. We have not had a government voted for by the majority of voters since 1955. We have an absolutely corrupt second chamber and an unelected head of state. The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

[northbank123]

Ah right so as well as this famous net economic benefit, immigrants are less than half as likely to claim key benefits?

Astounding that we're not seeing unparalleled economic growth from all of this super-immigration!

As for benefit tourism, even Mrs EU Angela Merkel has spoken at length about it being an issue for Germany which they should tackle. The reality is that the entire British public and political establishment was waiting on tenterhooks for the EU renegotiations outcome because the vast majority of people along the political spectrum and on both sides of the divide perceive completely unchecked EU immigration to be an issue.

[Red Snapper]

And thereby hangs the tale .The E.U is a power hungry control freak . The powers Germany and France along with the business houses of the U.K require growth and the best way to get that is to tie in customers to make sure that they buy the products they need from the places you want them to, and increasing the customer base is a sure way to achieve that.
. Every debate seems to become hijacked by immigration which plays into the hands of those that wish to silently force the changes they personally want. Politicians have been doing this for years .Put up a kite to capture headlines whilst something possibly unpopular creeps through under the radar. The E.U are past masters at giving something headlinable with their left hand whilst taking twice as much unnoticed with their right. This referendum is simple , it's not about cheap flights or lower roaming charges , neither is it about how many E.U nationals prop up the NHS. It's about self governing and having the right to vote out a government that we don't want . Something my parent's families and many others died for.
As for the wooly minded politicos arguing that we should remain to force change on it's policies from within , well good luck with that . We couldn't get any significant changes when there were only 6 members , so there is even less chance of them achieving it as our voting capacity diminishes .
Leave now and start this country up again.

At the 2015 election 64% of those that voted did not want a Tory government. The government was elected by 24% of the electorate. We have not had a government voted for by the majority of voters since 1955. We have an absolutely corrupt second chamber and an unelected head of state. The EU is far more democratic than the UK.

Exactly so why do we need to import and pay for another one? I was kind of agreeing with you until the last sentence of your post which made me fall off the chair laughing.
Was it Churchill who suggested that our way of electing a government was the worst one apart from all the others?

[Nos89]

It's recently occurred to me that by leaving the EU we pass on all the powers to our own state, this government to write the bill of rights, human rights bill and set trade deals for our agricultural and industrial businesses.
Voting out won't change the government we currently have, unless an emergency election is called, and I can't see that happening. So, Cameron and Osbourne can set the agenda to their liking. So, anyone think things will be better overnight is very much mistaken.

[nut flush gooner]

Nut Flush I didn't say that there was no cross-border provision of services. And I didn't say that London's financial services industry wasn't bigger than Germany and France.

In fact my whole point is that London is miles bigger and better - and that if financial services industry was opened up as much as the manufacturing industry then it would damage France and Germany economically as it would be even easier for London to compete in continental Europe.

I'm struggling to see your point tbh. Our financial services industry directly competes with every country in the world not just Europe, so we are not just talking Frankfurt it's Singapore, Hong Kong, New York and Tokyo. Being detached from Europe is to the detriment of Financial Services, I think I have made this point on several occasions with valid reasons so I am not going to repeat myself.

Britain doesn't do manufacturing any more because it cannot compete on price and quality. That's as a result of the rise of China and countries such as Germany and Japan either producing quality products/and or well priced products. We cannot do either and should accept that without government subsidies we cannot and should not try to compete.

We have a developed economy that thrives on services, technology and tourism. Embrace it and move on rather than live in the dark ages.

[northbank123]

It's recently occurred to me that by leaving the EU we pass on all the powers to our own state, this government to write the bill of rights, human rights bill and set trade deals for our agricultural and industrial businesses.
Voting out won't change the government we currently have, unless an emergency election is called, and I can't see that happening. So, Cameron and Osbourne can set the agenda to their liking. So, anyone think things will be better overnight is very much mistaken.

Absolutely correct that our own governments will have more legislative scope.

Although not on human rights - our human rights law comes from the ECHR which is absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Even though the European Court of Human Rights makes the EU's ECJ look positively timid with its outrageous overreaching and extension of its own jurisdiction, I can't see any UK government formally withdrawing from the ECHR as it would be political suicide given that even Turkey and Russia have signed up to (in theory) observe it and respect human rights.

Likewise for all the complaining about the loss of employment laws granted by the EU, most of ours are actually domestic and the ones derived from EU law have been implemented in domestic legislation so would have to be repealed.

[northbank123]

Nut Flush my observation was that - as central driver of EU policy - Germany has far more of a vested interest in ensuring completely effective freedom of goods as it serves their strong manufacturing industry than free movement of financial services which would open their financial industry up to even more competition from the stronger London financial sector.

[Red Snapper]

Two questions that need clarifying by the remain camp.

1. If we weren't already members, would you vote to join the EU?

2. Would you invest a great deal of your own money in any corporation that has failed to have it's accounts approved for nearly two decades?

[casgooner]

My random thoughts on the Brexit debate:-
Queen is a nominal figurehead and doesn't make any decisions.
We do elect MEPs but they don't get to vote on or pass any laws, they do as they are told and just rubber stamp them.
If you think our Government is corrupt, look at the heads of the EU. They don't have their finances checked by anyone, they don't have to account for anyone when they bill their expenses claim.
The President of Europe wasn't elected, when will that position become fully active without anyone voting for the post holder?
We can't do anything that will help our own citizens. Cameron wanted to reduce fuel tax for drivers in the Highlands, and was told he couldn’t the tax has to be the same everywhere!
We wanted to not tax Tampons, yes Tampons, but we were told we couldn't as everywhere else in Europe taxed Tampons, so tax stays.
We can't have anything revised or planned unless 28 other countries agree it. Countries which have very different needs to ours.
Europe is too big and bureaucratic and it will only get worse.

I'm voting leave!!!!

[Chippy]

Two questions that need clarifying by the remain camp.

1. If we weren't already members, would you vote to join the EU?

Of course. It would be crazy not to.

2. Would you invest a great deal of your own money in any corporation that has failed to have it's accounts approved for nearly two decades?

This is a lie constantly repeated by Brexiters

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/

[Chippy]

My random thoughts on the Brexit debate:-
Where to begin?
Queen is a nominal figurehead and doesn't make any decisions.
If you believe that you'll believe anything
We do elect MEPs but they don't get to vote on or pass any laws, they do as they are told and just rubber stamp them.
WTF? No law can be passed in the EU without going through the parliament. Where do you get this from?
If you think our Government is corrupt, look at the heads of the EU. They don't have their finances checked by anyone, they don't have to account for anyone when they bill their expenses claim.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/

A group of 34 peers meanwhile claimed a total of £130,000 despite never voting, and eight claimed £29,000 but neither spoke or voted.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/go ... rs-2014-15
The President of Europe wasn't elected, when will that position become fully active without anyone voting for the post holder?
He was elected by the parliament. In the same way the British PM is effectively elected by parliament
We can't do anything that will help our own citizens. Cameron wanted to reduce fuel tax for drivers in the Highlands,
and was told he couldn’t the tax has to be the same everywhere!
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rura ... reen-light
We wanted to not tax Tampons, yes Tampons, but we were told we couldn't as everywhere else in Europe taxed Tampons, so tax stays.
I'll give you that one
We can't have anything revised or planned unless 28 other countries agree it.
Not true. On most issues there is qualified majority voting, where big countries like the UK get slightly more than their fair share of votes. Only big issues like letting in a new country require unanimity. The UK has been on the winning side in 88% of votes in the Council of Ministers.
Countries which have very different needs to ours.
Europe is too big and bureaucratic and it will only get worse.

I'm voting leave!!!!

By all means vote leave, but at least do so for valid reasons or a purely emotional response, not because of a bunch of lies or half truths made up by the gutter press.

[northbank123]

I'm not an auditor or economist (or an AKB for that matter) but 4.4% seems worryingly high as a percentage of spending which shouldn't have been made? No real comparator mind.

Chippy you're putting people straight with cold, hard facts (quite rightly) - the like-minded response to your cynicism about the monarchy is that the Queen has never used her unbridled power to block approved legislation....

[OneBardGooner]

It looks like this could also be the end of Cameron - if we do leave - Lot's of Tory toadies coming out of the shadows to stick the boot in.


Oh what fun.