The 'I told you so' EU referendum - Officially the Worst Thread Ever

[Jock Gooner]

A bit of topic, but was listening to a podcast where they were explianing that the 2008 banking crisis was the "Last big cash grab" from the western people. Most of the wealth is already in the hands of only a few people, most of the west has less than £2k savings, so thier homes were targeted, there was money tied up in them, so they went after them. There is now a similar derivative scheme in US based on Cars and Car loans aimed at reselling them as A rated debt packages

Have a watch of the film The Big Short and that will explain exactly what happened in 2008. The investment banks can't help themselves when it comes to making money. There has already been talk of similar financial products to the 2008 mortgage bonds being touted around the markets. Shower of wan.kers

Haven't seen that film but if they ignored the major role Bill Cheesy Grin Clinton played in causing it then it ain't worth watching.

Interesting aside.... did you know the oft ridiculed and much maligned George W Bush prevented the crash being far far worse than it was?

I was aware but he was also blamed for it too He continued to slacken financial regulation which was a direction taken under Clinton. He was criticised for having Treasury secretaries that lacked any Wall Street nous which turned out to be a big failing. He was aware of the potential issues with the home lending industry but didn't manage to get congress to back him to sort them out so he also contributed to allowing the housing bubble / mortgage bond debacle to grow and burst. Probably the least he could do was to prevent it being worse than it was

Watch the film though it's very good - Christian Bale, Ryan Gosling, Steve Carell and Brad Pitt. The author of the book Michael Lewis really knows his financial stuff. He wrote Liars Poker which is about 80s Wall Street if you're interested in finance and he wrote the Moneyball book - if you saw the Brad Pitt, Jonah Hill movie. He's a clever bloke.

[DB10GOONER]

what did "dubya" do to help ?

His quick action diverted a depression.

Firstly, the recession was caused by the Clinton administration whose 1995 credit loosening policy started the housing credit bubble.

Clinton signed into law more financial deregulation legislation than any other president. He deregulated the risky derivatives market (Commodity Futures Modernization Act), gutted state regulation of banks leading to a wave of banking mergers, which led in no small part to the global financial crisis of 2008 and the "too-big-to-fail" ethos, with the US federal government obligated to bail out multinational banks. The Columbia Journalism Review publicly stated; “The bottom line is: Bill Clinton was responsible for more damaging financial deregulation—and thus, for the [2008] financial crisis—than any other president.” http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/bill_clint ... cans_m.php

Clinton basically gutted America’s manufacturing base by promoting and passing the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA, in 1993. This caused the permanent loss of 700,000 manufacturing jobs in industrial states such as California, Texas and Michigan. It gave corporate managers an excuse to cut wages and benefits, threatening otherwise to move to Mexico. Selling U.S. farm products in Mexico dislocated millions of Mexican workers and their families, which was a major cause in the dramatic increase in undocumented workers flowing into the US labour market.

Bush inherited this horror show of a recession.  And whilst he gets rightly criticised for his tax cuts that contributed to the recession initially getting worse, his administration’s response was rapid and smart at a critical juncture. With banks about to melt down, the Bush Treasury Department began buying up risky mortgage bonds, taking them out of banks’ hands and assuring investors around the world that whatever happened, US banks would be able to pay their debts. This generated confidence and prevented the recession becoming a depression.

[A11M11]

This is no more than confirmation bias in my eyes

A direct quote from Juncker's state of the union speech september 2017.


Incidentally the word compulsory was used in the context of joining the Euro , the quote on the army was " good to go" by 2025.

[Gunner Rob]

This is no more than confirmation bias in my eyes

A direct quote from Juncker's state of the union speech september 2017.


Incidentally the word compulsory was used in the context of joining the Euro , the quote on the army was " good to go" by 2025.

I shall ignore your comments on the EU army, as you have obviously convinced yourself that this will happen

With regards to joining the Euro, currently the power that the UK has in the EU means that as you may have noticed this country does not need to join the Euro and has the British pound as its currency. This is because the UK is a sovereign state and does not have to abide by all the laws and regulations of the EU.

If the UK decides to leave the UK and then re enter in a few years time (very likely as there is a huge majority of the younger generation who favour closer ties with the EU) it is unlikely to have quite so much power and the Euro may well be imposed on the UK.

vote Brexit - vote for the Euro....

[nut flush gooner]

This is no more than confirmation bias in my eyes

A direct quote from Juncker's state of the union speech september 2017.


Incidentally the word compulsory was used in the context of joining the Euro , the quote on the army was " good to go" by 2025.

Its confirmation bias, because what you have done is taken a statement and added to it. Juncker never said that conscription would be compulsory. His idea in 2015 gained no traction whatsoever.

As I said previously there are several countries where the population would push back at any government trying to enrol citizens into a European Army. The same goes for Euro membership, if they ever tried to enforce the currency on a member state that rejected it, then that would be adequate reason to leave, more so than some of the stuff you have come out with.

This is the thing about debating leaving the EU with people like you. Every negative is cherry picked, and any positive is not even acknowledged. It's classic head in the sand.

[A11M11]

Before you spill all your prams contents perhaps you would like to read the quotes properly !

I will reiterate :- the word compulsory was used in the context of joining the Euro , the quote on the army was " good to go" by 2025.

You said "" His idea in 2015 gained no traction whatsoever ""

I refer you to quotes from Macron :- During his key speech at Sorbonne University last September, Macron proposed a European military “intervention force” that would protect the continent by taking action in hotspots around the globe.

Merkel voices support for Macron's proposed European defence force 3rd June 2018. ( Daily Telegraph. )

Ex EU President and Merkel challenger rejects NATO spending in favour of European ARMY Martin Schultz

Guy Verhofstadt- The EU army is already being talked about.

There is a lot of writing on this particular wall , we already know that Juncker wants it and sure as eggs are eggs it's coming in one form or another, these people are the leaders of the E.U and if they want it , they will get it.

[Bradywasking]

Bit of a random question here but here goes, I haven't any real interest in golf but the Ryder Cup is on and Europe play under the EU Flag. After Brexit can British players play for Europe in the Ryder Cup? This may have been covered before on this thread or elsewhere .

[nut flush gooner]

Before you spill all your prams contents perhaps you would like to read the quotes properly !

I will reiterate :- the word compulsory was used in the context of joining the Euro , the quote on the army was " good to go" by 2025.

You said "" His idea in 2015 gained no traction whatsoever ""

I refer you to quotes from Macron :- During his key speech at Sorbonne University last September, Macron proposed a European military “intervention force” that would protect the continent by taking action in hotspots around the globe.

Merkel voices support for Macron's proposed European defence force 3rd June 2018. ( Daily Telegraph. )

Ex EU President and Merkel challenger rejects NATO spending in favour of European ARMY Martin Schultz

Guy Verhofstadt- The EU army is already being talked about.

There is a lot of writing on this particular wall , we already know that Juncker wants it and sure as eggs are eggs it's coming in one form or another, these people are the leaders of the E.U and if they want it , they will get it.

Again you are taking words out of their context.

"Good to go" doesn't mean every man that can walk will be conscripted into a European army. Have you actually been following European Politics over the last few years, because if you have you will have seen Italy, France, Netherlands and recently Sweden push back against some of the principles the EU stand for. It hasn't got to the stage where they are requesting referendums on membership but even Juncker knows his ideology will never be adopted by the main European nations.

Merkel is significantly weaker than she was a few years ago, Macron's popularity has waned since he was elected. There has been a worrying emergence of right-wing extremism in both Sweden and the Netherlands. That's before you even start looking at countries like Austria or the Former Soviet states. And tell me where does he talk about compulsory conscription?

There already is an international army of allies anyway, it's called NATO. Do you like the thought of Donald Trump dragging us into a war with Russia or Iran because he got out of bed the wrong side one day? Yet if Juncker was pushing for the same action you have a problem with it?

To me, you can't argue about leaving the EU on an economic level because you know it will hurt us, but immigration and now the European Army is fair game.

[nut flush gooner]

Bit of a random question here but here goes, I haven't any real interest in golf but the Ryder Cup is on and Europe play under the EU Flag. After Brexit can British players play for Europe in the Ryder Cup? This may have been covered before on this thread or elsewhere .

I think historically the Ryder Cup started as Great Britain vs USA (then Ireland and Europe joined us), so it would be a bit stupid of the Europeans to exclude us on the basis that we are leaving the EU. I really don't think politics comes into this.

[Jock Gooner]

Bit of a random question here but here goes, I haven't any real interest in golf but the Ryder Cup is on and Europe play under the EU Flag. After Brexit can British players play for Europe in the Ryder Cup? This may have been covered before on this thread or elsewhere .

I think historically the Ryder Cup started as Great Britain vs USA (then Ireland and Europe joined us), so it would be a bit stupid of the Europeans to exclude us on the basis that we are leaving the EU. I really don't think politics comes into this.

Absolutely, it's Europe v USA. The EU is just a political club not a continent - I think we are still part of Europe even after we leave the politicians little EU gang

[Gunner Rob]

Bit of a random question here but here goes, I haven't any real interest in golf but the Ryder Cup is on and Europe play under the EU Flag. After Brexit can British players play for Europe in the Ryder Cup? This may have been covered before on this thread or elsewhere .

hope you enjoyed the great EUROPEAN victory today!

must have been hard for Brexiteers seeing the EU flag being waved though - funny how the EU is always portrayed as the enemy in the right wing media.

it is about time that the UK was seen as part of the EU and the whole Brexit debate was not about "us" and "them"

[A11M11]

Is that the best you've got Rob , Of course I was pleased to see the European team win the Ryder Cup , but that's what it was . A team made up of players from individual European countries . No doubt the e.u spent some more of it's cash on sponsoring the team , rather like the Russians always adopt their sporting teams . Afterall it's great publicity.
Incidentally I don't want to leave Europe , I love the diversity of the different countries that I have spent time in . I just want to leave the political union that is doing everything it can to destroy the differences that made it so good.

Anyway Nut Flush it seems that Santa Claus is coming to town a little early :- https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/22/ge ... s-command/. And the population of remainers are not waking up quick enough to see what's happening under their noses.
""It will never happen"" La-la-la-la-la.

[Gunner Rob]

Brexiteers really do need to wake up to the the fact that you are not going to get your fantasy Brexit (whatever that is, seems to be different for most of you) Theresa May has repeatedly said that what is on offer is the "Chequers deal" and that's it. Trouble is this deal is almost certainly going to be rejected by the EU.

So it is looking likely that we are heading for a no deal Brexit, but this is almost certaibly going to be rejected by Parliament.
This leaves Parliament with the option of giving the public a final vote on what they want - either a no deal Brexit or to stay in the EU.
That choice should be a no brainer (apart from a few deluded individuals).

Hopefully by this time next year we can all be more optimistic about the future direction of the EU, with the UK at the heart of it

[AkneyGooner]

A bit of topic, but was listening to a podcast where they were explianing that the 2008 banking crisis was the "Last big cash grab" from the western people. Most of the wealth is already in the hands of only a few people, most of the west has less than £2k savings, so thier homes were targeted, there was money tied up in them, so they went after them. There is now a similar derivative scheme in US based on Cars and Car loans aimed at reselling them as A rated debt packages

Have a watch of the film The Big Short and that will explain exactly what happened in 2008. The investment banks can't help themselves when it comes to making money. There has already been talk of similar financial products to the 2008 mortgage bonds being touted around the markets. Shower of wan.kers

Haven't seen that film but if they ignored the major role Bill Cheesy Grin Clinton played in causing it then it ain't worth watching.

Interesting aside.... did you know the oft ridiculed and much maligned George W Bush prevented the crash being far far worse than it was?

I knew of the Clinton's involvement, I didn't realise that dubya did that though, the Clinton's are responsible for the broken economy the US has now, the how the democratic party put her up was a joke. The Clinton's put half the country out of work , and for me was the real rise of the lobbying taking money from every lobbying group , that's why as much as they are looked down on and abused by certain people, Unions are important, they are in effect the lobby group for the working class.

[DB10GOONER]

I'll just repeat there will never be a compulsory EU Army. That is just silly propaganda. There may be a more proactive voluntary multinational EU peacekeeping force along the lines of the NATO model but it will be incentivised, never compulsory.

Tbh though some form of coordinated EU military cooperation will be a good thing given the real threat of Islamic terror cells in our general population. An exchange of expertise and technology is vital to combat those scumbags.

An example. The Oirish police version of your Special Branch is currently monitoring 4 or 5 cells of ISIS fundraisers in Dublin. These are mostly just regular plod with some training in responding to gang shootings and bank robberies but no tactical training or anti terror training. They carry sidearms and have access to MP5 and Uzi type SMGs but no ballistic shields or proper room breaching equipment or indeed training in CQB.

If the ISIS money men were to launch a terror attack in Dublin we are terribly unprepared for it.

In this modern age of Islamic terror a coordinated highly mobile and well trained response is vital.