Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[Gunner Rob]

Steveo - when you are in a hole probably best to stop digging.

to say that Saka is just as bad as Havertz is unbelievable.
ok he probably isnt playing his best right now but he is still capable of changing games and influencing things.
he practically scored both goals on Sunday, he is our top scorer in the league and scored in the Champions League last week.

Havertz could go the whole season and not achieve what Saka has achieved already this season.

[augie]

Steveo - when you are in a hole probably best to stop digging.

to say that Saka is just as bad as Havertz is unbelievable.
ok he probably isnt playing his best right now but he is still capable of changing games and influencing things.
he practically scored both goals on Sunday, he is our top scorer in the league and scored in the Champions League last week.

Havertz could go the whole season and not achieve what Saka has achieved already this season.

Tbf to SteveO, I think the point he was making was that in the game v the scum Havertz was no worse than saka and a number of other players, and on that point I am in full agreement with him. On the overall point of havertz though, I have no tolerance for the guy at all and it was one of the worst transfer decisions in recent years involving any club

[Retro Gunner]

I go back to my comparison with Wenger. Amongst many things, one of the biggest (rightful) criticisms of him (and one confirmed by players who played under him) is that tactically he was very limited. He had one style of play, paid no attention to the opposition we were faced with and by the time Maureen and a host of other modern coaches came along in the mid-late noughties, he was well and truly found out. We got consistently walloped away from home by Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Ure, City plus the likes of Bayern and Barca, and he still never had that "a-ha" moment where he thought....do you know what this doesn't work anymore.

What I will say for Arteta is that he's bold enough to try different things. He's getting slated now for rotating the keepers but many on here have been critical of Ramsdale. Havertz isn't half as bad as being made out on here. I couldn't give a flying fuck about how shit he was at Chelsea. So were Sterling and a whole host of other players who have had fantastic careers elsewhere. As is being proven again this season, that place is somewhere to go to ruin even the best of careers. Multiple managers, random rotated squad selection, no identity or team spirit - I bet if you sent Saka down there he'd turn to rat shit inside a year

I don't mind managers trying new things and accept the fact it won't always come off. I'd take that over a gormless, outdated, dinosaur who knew one way and one way only despite 8-2, 6-0, 6-3, 5-1 x 2 etc.

Well, it's all about opinions and you're perfectly entitled to rate Havertz. Some people rated Xhaka. In my opinion, Havertz is absolutely fucking useless and I've no idea what Arteta thinks he brings to the team, but maybe El Basque (copyright Augie) thinks he can unearth a talent that no one in this country has seen in the bloke.

What I don't get SteveO is the second sentence I've highlighted. We've got 3 years of evidence at Chelsea that he's crap, but you don't give a "flying fuck" about that because of the dysfunction at the club. I'll agree that it's been a mess...although they won the CL under Tuchel....but that doesn't mean that I can't look at a player and work out if he's any good or not. Just off the top of my head I can think of Rudiger, Kovacic, Rees James and maybe Chilwell that I'd have taken at the Arsenal, even though I'd only seen them playing in a chaotic period at Chelsea. I wouldn't have taken Havertz on a free, let alone for 65 million.

The point is a simple one mate - I can't stand Chelsea (or many other teams!) and a player's form for them means nothing to me. Patrick Vieira was a reject at AC Milan, Henry didn't cut it at Juventus, not many people on here (me included) wanted Zinchenko or Jesus....but as soon as they pull on that red and white shirt, I couldn't give a flying fuck at what they did at any other club. Lots of people wanted Caicedo on here - he's done fuck all at Chelsea, but I bet if we were offered him or Mudryk in a year's time and they did well for us, nobody would give a shit how they played for that rabble

I don't think Havertz is a world beater, but he's becoming a convenient scapegoat for when we don't play well. When he came on the other day he wasn't any worse than a number of players out there - players who have had far more chances in the Arsenal shirt. Granit Xhaka played 297 times for Arsenal. Havertz has played half a dozen games - there's no comparison really

The point doesn't make any sense mate. The times I hear this crap about Viera, Henry, Pires and even Bergkamp for fuck sake. Vieira was very young and spent a season at Milan where he wasn't played, so he was hardly a flop. Henry did struggle in his season at Juve, but was proven before that. He didn't get off to a flyer with us, but it was clear he had ability. I personally rated Pires from day one and anyone that had doubts about Dennis ought to follow a different sport.

The situation with Havertz is entirely different and nothing to do with scapegoating. He's been a complete flop at chelsea for 3 fucking seasons, not 3 weeks or 3 months. So because you hate Chelsea, you'd be prepared to buy a player from them regardless of form, or ability? Fuck me. You ought to apply for the Arsenal manager's job, because that seems bang in line with our approach to buying Chelsea rejects. Not giving a "flying fuck" about what a player has done at previous clubs isn't much of a buying strategy is it...what yardstick do you use? If all you do is wait and see how the bloke performs in a red and white shirt, then you ought to be pretty concerned about Havertz.

As for him being no worse than others on Sunday (debatable), who are we talking about, Vieira perhaps, because it's hard to think of another candidate that is consistently poor, which is exactly what Havertz has been in his half a dozen appearances. Being "no worse" than other poor performers is a pretty low bar and hardly a glowing recommendation and particularly when you're poor in every game. One thing I'll guarantee you is that we won't be talking about Havertz in the way we were talking about Paddy or Henry in 6 months or a years' time.

For what it's worth, I'll say it again, being not good enough isn't the fault of Havertz, just as it wasn't the fault of Xhaka, it's all lies at the door of the bloke that buys/picks them.

I've always considered you an excellent poster on here mate, but there's one hell of a blind spot going on with Havertz. Still, opinions and all that I suppose.

It's about giving him a chance. If I apply your similar logic about Henry being proven before Juve, the same can be said of Havertz from his time in Germany and with the national team. Apart from the Tuchel season - where the bloke scored the winning goal in the biggest club match on Earth - that club have been a joke and players we were supposedly eyeing up for 80-100m have gone there and proved it too. Koulibaly was everyone's wet dream too. Dozens and dozens of players fucked about between Lumpard, Potter, now Podgie. They are a joke and many many players beyond Havertz have proven to be class players at other clubs

I don't have a blind spot with Havertz. I didn't especially want us to sign him and I said I didn't know where we'd fit him into the team. But he's here now and what I won't do is condemn him after six games. You want a player who has been every bit as bad - Saka! Fucking dreadful again at the weekend and most games this season. Not playing confidently at all. Vieira of course. Nketiah and Jesus both absolutely fucking shite. Raya - everyone's new favourite after five minutes couldn't pass it accurately to someone if his life depended on it on Sunday. It was a bad day. We played shit. Havertz came into a shit situation - he didn't do much wrong and didn't do anything brilliantly. My point is that Saka and others had a far longer run out and were absolutely shit, so trying to blame Havertz is just scapegoating and blame deflecting

Simply, the difference between Henry and Havertz is that the German has been a complete flop for 3 years. No one is judging him on half a dozen games with the Arsenal, although the form has been as bad as we all expected. Chelsea may well have been through a tumultuous period, but there were plenty of players I'd have taken during that time, because it was clear they were talented...I already mentioned a few. Anyway, as I've also said, I'll guarantee you that Havertz won't do an Henry and come good. The poor sod looks lost on the pitch, almost as though he doesn't know where he fits in and what he ought to be doing. It's not just an early days thing, because he looked the same at the chavs. Some said when we signed him that he'd been played as a striker at Chelsea and that he's actually an attacking midfielder...that ain't looking too obvious is it? For the life of me, I can't work out what Arteta thought he saw in the bloke, it's the most baffling signing I can remember.

As for other players not performing on Sunday, I think Rob has answered that one above. It's daft to compare a player or players that had a bad game, or may even be off form, with a guy that has flopped for 3 seasons plus. There are others that aren't good enough, Eddie and Jorginho spring to mind, but we haven't just blown 65 million on them. You say that Havertz didn't do much wrong and didn't do anything brilliantly, but that's it really...he doesn't do anything. It's on Arteta, not the player.

Anyway, we're not going to agree on this and it will get tiresome for everyone else.

[the playing mantis]

Havertz wasn't so bad on sunday as he did fuck all. Hard to be bad if you hide. He fell over a couple of times lost some 60 40 challenges in his favour against smaller players muscling him off the ball, and played a couple of 5 yard passes sideways. Helped no end from your 65m impact sub...

Yes lots of others were poor but at least tried and or had some impact. Bar Eddie who was a disgrace. In all the previous games though havertz has been equally shite/invisible.

Havertz record at levekusen wasn't great. The original Clive was good in Germany apparently. So that's hardly a yardstick.

He's shite and a shocking spend of 65m especially given 3 years of crap before. Simply no justification in that fee regardless of how mad Chelsea have been.

Anyway I look forward to klive replacing the mighty abou (now that was a wasted talent due to thay northern thug) on steveos avatar!!

[Retro Gunner]

Havertz wasn't so bad on sunday as he did fuck all. Hard to be bad if you hide. He fell over a couple of times lost some 60 40 challenges in his favour against smaller players muscling him off the ball, and played a couple of 5 yard passes sideways. Helped no end from your 65m impact sub...

Yes lots of others were poor but at least tried and or had some impact. Bar Eddie who was a disgrace. In all the previous games though havertz has been equally shite/invisible.

Havertz record at levekusen wasn't great. The original Clive was good in Germany apparently. So that's hardly a yardstick.

He's shite and a shocking spend of 65m especially given 3 years of crap before. Simply no justification in that fee regardless of how mad Chelsea have been.

Anyway I look forward to klive replacing the mighty abou (now that was a wasted talent due to thay northern thug) on steveos avatar!!

Correct. I'm probably one of the few on here that agreed with SteveO on this. If he hadn't been injury plagued (as you say, a result of a needless spiteful challenge at the end of a game), then Diaby would have been a top player imo.

[Arsenal Till I Die]

Havertz wasn't so bad on sunday as he did fuck all. Hard to be bad if you hide. He fell over a couple of times lost some 60 40 challenges in his favour against smaller players muscling him off the ball, and played a couple of 5 yard passes sideways. Helped no end from your 65m impact sub...

Yes lots of others were poor but at least tried and or had some impact. Bar Eddie who was a disgrace. In all the previous games though havertz has been equally shite/invisible.

Havertz record at levekusen wasn't great. The original Clive was good in Germany apparently. So that's hardly a yardstick.

He's shite and a shocking spend of 65m especially given 3 years of crap before. Simply no justification in that fee regardless of how mad Chelsea have been.

Anyway I look forward to klive replacing the mighty abou (now that was a wasted talent due to thay northern thug) on steveos avatar!!

Correct. I'm probably one of the few on here that agreed with SteveO on this. If he hadn't been injury plagued (as you say, a result of a needless spiteful challenge at the end of a game), then Diaby would have been a top player imo.

And he’s fed up of being known as the man who ruined Diaby’s career. Diddums.

[OneBardGooner]

Havertz wasn't so bad on sunday as he did fuck all. Hard to be bad if you hide. He fell over a couple of times lost some 60 40 challenges in his favour against smaller players muscling him off the ball, and played a couple of 5 yard passes sideways. Helped no end from your 65m impact sub...

Yes lots of others were poor but at least tried and or had some impact. Bar Eddie who was a disgrace. In all the previous games though havertz has been equally shite/invisible.

Havertz record at levekusen wasn't great. The original Clive was good in Germany apparently. So that's hardly a yardstick.

He's shite and a shocking spend of 65m especially given 3 years of crap before. Simply no justification in that fee regardless of how mad Chelsea have been.

Anyway I look forward to klive replacing the mighty abou (now that was a wasted talent due to thay northern thug) on steveos avatar!!

Correct. I'm probably one of the few on here that agreed with SteveO on this. If he hadn't been injury plagued (as you say, a result of a needless spiteful challenge at the end of a game), then Diaby would have been a top player imo.

Not jumping on the Band Wagon, But I always thought he would have been a very good player player.... I still remember that 25yard screamer he scored against Derby when we beat them 5 - 1 or Nil(?) Diaby scored 2 that day I think, he was on fire.

That No MarkCUNT Dan Smith had only been on for 5 minutes or so, we were 3 nil up and he went in "Intending" to do damage, of course McDermott the uselessCuntof a ref only gave him a Yellow Card... That was the beginning of the End for Diaby.

[SteveO 35]

A grovelling apology to Unai please

This prick has wasted 400m and can't beat Lens, Sporting, Olympicos

The previous guy spent 40m and got us to a EL final and has now got the second best record in the PL bar City over the past year

Of course there were a few of us with hairs in funny places who realised how lucky we were to have him before the club made the worst decision ever in Nov 2019

[Arsenal Till I Die]

I’m still in the sack Arteta camp. It won’t happen, at ALL. I just wish we would.

[Gunner Rob]

For me Arteta has always been a “lucky” manager rather than a good one.
Maybe the Champions League is a step too far for him.

I’m not in the Arteta out camp but I am still struggling to get behind him.
If it all goes totally wrong this season we should probably make a change next summer.

[SteveO 35]

For me Arteta has always been a “lucky” manager rather than a good one.
Maybe the Champions League is a step too far for him.

I’m not in the Arteta out camp but I am still struggling to get behind him.
If it all goes totally wrong this season we should probably make a change next summer.

Mate, the Europa League was a step too far. Sporting Lisbon and Olympiacos had his number let alone...err the 15th best team in France

I want to know is there another manager in this seasons CL with a worse managerial record in Europe?

Whatever it is, he hasn't got it

He's shit. We're shit. Just worse off by 400m and still shit. Tonight's the end for me. He's 100% Wenger 08-17. A lightweight in a man's world

[the playing mantis]

For me Arteta has always been a “lucky” manager rather than a good one.
Maybe the Champions League is a step too far for him.

I’m not in the Arteta out camp but I am still struggling to get behind him.
If it all goes totally wrong this season we should probably make a change next summer.

No chance. We are with him as long as he want the job. He's considered elite for some reason. All the moronic fan boys who were all akbs for years as they like their club freebies, like legrove and arseblog defending his tinkering and his persistence with havertz as being oh so clever and seeing things other lesser football geniuses can't see when the reality is we have gone from looking a decent side last year who needed some quality additions and back up, to a team of strangers and a system that has made us less of a threat and yet its all some brilliant ruse to make us less predictable and any minute we will go bang.

It not that arteta is a arrogant fucker trying to be too clever with too many favorites, no clue about in hame management, and no clue about running players into the ground like saka.

I don't think arteta is clueless I think he's stubborn and egotistical like wenger and doubles down when everyone is criticising, see havertz, see no striker, see Eddie, see viera, see no esr, see changing our system this season and it not working. If he got rid of that trait he could be very good. He won't so he isn't.

The only hope in him leaving is barca or city coming in for him fooled by this undeserved elite badge the media have given him for coming 2nd last year.

[SteveO 35]

2nd place really was his "Brendan Rodgers moment" where the stars aligned, nobody expected it and we played off the cuff

Just like Brenda this c.unt is a one season wonder. Clueless. Last night ends the experiment. 400m quid and we are a mirror image of the shit Wenger left behind

[OneBardGooner]

[SteveO 35]

ONE UNAI EMERY....THERE'S ONLY ONE UNAI EMERY