I’ll give Arsenal one more season (19/7)

[Eboue Can't Defend]

You obviously misunderstood the point I was making. The writer of the article claimed that if the atmosphere didn't improve, he wouldn't come back!! Now what kind of true fan would say or do such a thing?

How about a fan whose pockets are no longer deep enough? After all once the scrum for the tickets has receeded many of the tickets left over are upwards of £45, a lot of money to be told to sit still and be quiet, as if you returned to the fucking infant school.

I mean should one's love of the Arsenal override the ability to pay for the roof over your head, or your kids new shoes, or the insurance on the car that your misses wants to lug the shopping from Sainbury's?

Or do you expect a 'true' fan to be living a life of celibacy rent-free at his mother's in order to pay for the admission?

Cuz,

Did you read my very first post on this subject in it's entirety? Is this just a wind-up or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm really not sure anymore!!

In this particular instance, we are not talking about someone being priced out of coming, but of the main article writer's claim that he wouldn't come - not because he couldn't afford it - but BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF ATMOSPHERE AT THE GROUND!!

That is why my initial post questioned whether or not that was a good enough reason for him to stop coming. It's fair enough if you can't afford to come because of prices. But to say you won't come because of the atmosphere??

I'm not going to repeat earlier points here, but 'prices being too high' is not something anyone is going to argue with! Nor the fact that the atmosphere could and should be better. You're pushing on an open door with those points.

I also have friends - gooners since the late sixties - who no longer can afford to go for the reasons you mention above. At the same time I have friends that earn feck-all yet make whatever sacrifice they need to in order to afford their season ticket or just to get to the ocassional match. Indeed, I'm one of those people and my pockets - like the Spud's trophy cabinet - are habitually empty!! It sometimes comes down to different priorities as well as neccessity.

And finally, what is so wrong about living a life of celibacy whilst staying at your mum's rent free? U.F.G highly recommends it!!

[Cus Geezer]

Did you read my very first post on this subject in it's entirety? Is this just a wind-up or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm really not sure anymore!!

In this particular instance, we are not talking about someone being priced out of coming, but of the main article writer's claim that he wouldn't come - not because he couldn't afford it - but BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF ATMOSPHERE AT THE GROUND!!

That is why my initial post questioned whether or not that was a good enough reason for him to stop coming. It's fair enough if you can't afford to come because of prices. But to say you won't come because of the atmosphere??

Why do you believe the two can't be related?

After all, poor atmosphere £15-20 = fair game, it's not gonna break us, I could put up with the fascist stewards and library conditions for that price.

Great atmosphere, really letting it all out and singing along, enjoying myself without some fascist trying to kick us out for it. Costs £45 = A fair whack but worth every penny.

Shit atmosphere, fascist stewards, people egging the stewards to boot me out just for singing. And all for £45 upward, oh and that's not taking into account the hassel actually getting the tickets, having to disappear from your workplace at 9.30 and spend nearly half an hour on hold eating up your mobile phone credit, plus Ticketmaster (I honestly believe) deliberatley cutting you off mid call while trying to carry out the transaction to get more money from you recalling.

And on top of that the possibly of watching every Arsenal game next season on ART Sports within an atmosphere of little restraint. Let's be honest it wouldn't take a fairweather Arsenal fan to consider giving it a miss.

I mean fucking hell am I really not the only one to see the possibly that the two could be connected?

Maybe the author of the article could return and clarify this?

Do you know what Eboue if I looked at things with cold rationality and listened to the screams of my wallet I'd be joining the author of this article virtually reserving my place in the twelve pins on match day, my pride is just not willing to hand my club over to dispassionate *word censored* like bookanengineer and his merchant banker friends.

[Eboue Can't Defend]

Cus,

Now if the author of the article had argued his case along the lines that you just did, I wouldn't have felt the need to write a response in the first place!

I really think that we are on the same page with regards this matter. It's just that you are taking out your ire on bookanengineer and me on the writer of the 'One More Season' article, who I also took to be a johnny-come-lately, because it seemed he was only interested in attending Arsenal to have a 'good time' at the game, and not out of his love for the club. However, I am willing to hold my hands up and apologise if I am wrong about him.

I agree that the change in prices and the expansion of the fan base will have had a detrimental effect on the atmosphere. No-one amongst us real supporters like the fact that a few thousand people in attendence at each home game don't give a stuff about the result in general or Arsenal in particular, and are only there on a corporate jolly. Meanwhile some genuine gooners friends of ours no longer attend because of the price rises or unavailability of tickets. And the likes of me and you are in danger of joining them if ticket prices continue to go up.

However, the unpalatable truth is that the new stadium is only an economically viable proposition at the moment because of the income generated by the likes of these 'event-loving' people. Otherwise, you and I would be paying even more for our tickets - as if we don't pay enough as it is. So I see them as a necessary evil - at least until the debt's paid off - then I'd shoot the fecking lot of them!!

Like you I also hate the fact that so-called Arsenal fans are reporting fellow gooners to stewards for standing and singing. It seems the club stewards have carte blanche to hassle Arsenal supporters, yet allow the opposition fans to do whatever they want without consequence. I wonder if that is under strict orders from the club, or whether it's because they'll get less aggro from our mob than from the opposition supporters so it's easier to carry off?

Personally, I would prefer it if the singing section was made much larger and the whole of the North End were open-seated to allow like-minded people to sit/stand/sing/snore near each other.

Yet another easy way to help generate a better atmosphere would be to reallocate the family enclosure next to the main home end and allow a new 'clock-end' to be born, with singers and opposition-baters giving out stick face to face to our rivals, like we did at Highbury. That, by itself, would almost guarantee an improved noise level.

However that is not going to happen now because the club screwed up with the original allocation and positioning of certain fans sections and they won't be allowed to change it by the local authorities and police.

There is only one way that I see that we can get around this throwing out of singing Arsenal fans malarky, and that is for all of us true gooners to stand up and start shouting the eqivalent of 'I'm Spartacus!' whenever the stewards begin moving in to do their dastardly deeds! Let's see if they can or even dare to attempt to throw all of us out!

I'm willing to be Kirk Douglas! Who else is with me??

[Eboue Can't Defend]

I was lucky enough to be going to games since the late 70's and not all of us were hooligans or scum as I've read one idiot describe us.

If this is aimed at me, then you can go fuck yourself! You want to comment on a posting then make sure you read and understand it first...

MK Gould, just been re-reading some of the posts on this thread and came across the above contribution from you. I have to say, I'm shocked. That isn't the normal nice and friendly on-line gooner welcome we give to newcomers!! At least wait until his second post before issuing invitations to go forth and multiple!!

Anyway, on behalf of myself and (I'm sure) MK Gould - a belated welcome to the debating chamber Tel. As you probably know by now, we don't always agree on everything, but you can be guaranteed stimulating reading and comedy at it's finest this side of a Chubby Brown gig!! Hope that despite your rough baptism at the hands of MK Gould, you enjoy yourself on here.

[tel]

I was lucky enough to be going to games since the late 70's and not all of us were hooligans or scum as I've read one idiot describe us.

If this is aimed at me, then you can go fuck yourself! You want to comment on a posting then make sure you read and understand it first.

A significant MINORITY of fans going to matches in the 70's were violent arsehole thugs. I should know. I was one of them! Like many impresssionable youngsters at the time I was more of a "wannabe", following away fans back to London mainline stations, posturing, wearing high laced DM's etc. But the real hard core have - fortunately - largely stopped attending matches. Its probably as a result of a great many things - CCTV, better stewarding/policing etc etc, but I think a big reason is cost. Are you really going to have a go at opposition fans and risk getting kicked out after paying £50 to get in? And are you even going to join a membership scheme in the first place.

My point is that reduced prices may bring some of the arseholes back. Ask fans of lower league clubs where prices are much cheaper & where a great many arseholes still reside!

I've also been going since the 70's so I'm aware of the type of fans we and most other clubs had back then. Many lads whom I used to go with back in the 80's have been priced out of going regularly and are horrified at the lack of atmosphere and passion displayed by the majority on their rare visits to games. Most of the hooligans have been priced out but even if prices dropped we'd still have the membership schemes and many still wouldn't be able to get tickets. Even if they could get into ground the CCTV and the over zealous stewards would let them away with nothing and to be honest if they wanted a pop at the away fans they could still do so without even going to the game. I can't say I noticed an increased threat at the CC games although the Spurs game had the usual edge to it.

My biggest worry of all is where is the next generation of Gooners coming from?? Who can afford to take their kids week in week out as I'm sure many of us were by our Dads?? We will have a stadium full of Traders and Bankers who are only there because they were the only ones able to afford it within 10 years at this rate. Either way the club if anything will increase it's prices so I don't expect anything to change for a number of years if ever and they will get the atmosphere they deserve.

[Cus Geezer]

I wouldn't go over the top on the cost and hooliganism relationship.

I mean ICF stands for 'Inter City Firm', they could afford the expense of the train rather than slumming it on the coach. I think that its been widely noted that a few of the 'barrow boys' as opposed to 'Harrow boys' who were coming through the ranks of City traders in the Thatcher years still stuck to their East end roots and mixed it with the Cas Pennants of this world.

Also the trouble at the England v Argentina game in Mexico 86. How many on the dole in 1986 could afford a trip to Mexico City?

Who ever thinks people earning a good wage are incapable of wankerish behaviour wants to hang around Liverpool Street at closing time.

[Cus Geezer]

it seemed he was only interested in attending Arsenal to have a 'good time' at the game, and not out of his love for the club. However, I am willing to hold my hands up and apologise if I am wrong about him.

I would have thought that in any other era one's love of the Arsenal emanated through having a 'good time' at the game. Let's not forget the roots of football's popularity in the early part of the last century comes from many having to work the half day saturday and come 3PM the football ground was the only place that one would have had the time or money to spend.

I can't imagine a bunch of menial workers in the 30s and 40s would have hung around long if their few precious hours of enjoyment on a Saturday was ruined by fascist stewards and people on day release from the theatre were trying to hush them up.

Look I don't care if people turn up and don't want to sing and don't want their concentration spoiled, but they're now telling US what to do, they're telling US what is the norm at a football game. They're not here to be assimilated into the norms of Football Culture, they're here to impose themselves and their cultural ways and norms onto us as if they have some kind of superiority to us.

This particularly sticks in the gut.

Let's go back to 1985 and see what this class of person thought about Football in general, as quoted by the Times:

'A slum game in slum stadiums watched by SLUM PEOPLE'

A quick generalization of thousands of people across the country based in nothing but snobbish bigotry. They had zero time for it, but hey like bits of lime stuck in a beer bottle or a flat in Hoxton, polish the turd a little, push up the prices, push out the dirty oikes and hey presto it's the newist fabbist craze.

[MK Gould]

My biggest worry of all is where is the next generation of Gooners coming from??

Ok, I admit it. I apologise. Maybe I was being a tad oversensitive and maybe my Cost = Hooligan link was a little overplayed. CCTV, and changing social factors, are far bigger reasons! And your point about next generation is also my biggest worry.

In the 70's we developed a love and understanding of what it means to be a gooner by going to a match. No membership, no sold out signs and very few all ticket matches. You could pick and choose where you stood and you paid very little for the pleasure. I'm not sure exactly how todays cost equates with the 70's, but suffice to say that my only income then was from delivering the Citizen (although that increased when I was promoted to being the depot!!), lived in a rented council house and had a 50 mile round trip by public transport from Essex to Highbury, yet cost was never an issue. It must have been bloody cheap thats all I can say! And not just me, most of the kids in school were active supporters. Mainly Spurs, a few gooners and West Ham plus a scattering of Chelsea. And we often went to see each others teams too.

My kids are lucky as I came up trumps on the season ticket waiting list so they at least get to go. But the cost is crippling, so I do have to sell on some games to friends (which does at least mean that their kids get the same advantage). But even then they'll get a very different view of being a gooner than mine. Cosy little seat in the Family enclosure versus East Side schoolboys, graduating to back of North Bank, Clock End etc. Its a very different "education"!

The advent of Sky does at least guarantee a whole new fan base who are quite happy to watch most games on the TV - and attend when the chance comes up. But that means that their appreciation is based more on the success of the style of football played rather than any deep understanding of goonerdom. Will their support survive a "Terry Neil" type era. Will they be able to fondly reminise about a Terry Mancini or John Matthews? Will they understand that what happens on the pitch is only a tiny part of the matchday experience????

I don't think we should be too pessimistic though. The law of supply & demand says that when the prawn sarnies decide that football isn't sexy any more then that is when Arsenal will reduce prices - as many other clubs have already been forced to do. And maybe the pricing policy for Carling Cup games and the pre-season tournament show that Arsenal FC do recognise that they need to nurture an interest in a very broad base, as we may have to call on them in the future.

It does mean though that there is a huge responsibility on older gooners to pass on the traditions while its not too late. Which is why you'll see a guy fast approaching 50 quite happily starting chants in the Family section despite the odd disapproving look! Its also why I think the anthem & RedAction are great ideas. Yes, we didn't need them in the past. But we certainly do now!

Oh, almost forgot to say. Tel, welcome to the forum my friend!!!

[Ben-gooner14]

What's the atmoshere like in the family inclosure because i would guess it would be a little more subjude as you will have families with smaller children.

[gooner.ed]

family enclosure atmosphere? more industrial language than other parts of the ground due to the number of young teenagers showing off - some of them with adults, some just with their mates. if you bring your kids up to believe that swearing is a no-no, as i have done, it's a tricky situation when you attend a game with them there. obviously there's no point in admonishing the swearers as that's just a red rag to a bull. fair old bit of chanting/singing there though. quite impressed with the south end for that.

[MK Gould]

I sit in the predominantly season ticket holder part of the Family Enclosure, so not much swearing. Its quite funny when a chant starts up eslewhere which involves a swear word as my kids look at me with a knowing smile - but are well aware that they can't join in. My kids have a good healthy knowledge of swear words. And a good healthy knowledge of when its wholly inapproriate to use them!

Remember as well that the Family Enclosure is well all concession ticket holders sit. So we do get a fair number of Senior Citizens.....

[Ben-gooner14]

When i wemt to cardiff with my cousin he didn't really mind me singing chants which involved swearing he just wanted me to have a good time. The first bit would of been a lot different if I had gone with my mum lol.

[MK Gould]

When i wemt to cardiff with my cousin he didn't really mind me singing chants which involved swearing he just wanted me to have a good time. The first bit would of been a lot different if I had gone with my mum lol.

Your cousin was spot on. Going to a match shouldn't be like going to school or the theatre. Its a rare chance to let your hair down and let off some steam. Its difficult in our seats at the Grove, but I've no problem in my kids joining in with chants away from home. I'm sure it won't do them any long term harm!

By the way, I've never shied away from explaining to my kids what each swear word actually means - and why some are much more offensive than others. Hopefully this will guide them as to which words should be avoided at all costs.

[All_Arsenal_1886]

When i take my 5 year old little brother fans swear around him but he knows its not right so he doesn't repeat it, my mother wouldn't be happy if she knew, but what she don't knowcan't anger her
so far my brother hasn't repeated anything said in the stands but if im honest its probs only a matter of time, as long as its only at a match i wont be that botherd by it just as long as he don't do it on the street

[MK Gould]

When i take my 5 year old little brother fans swear around him but he knows its not right so he doesn't repeat it, my mother wouldn't be happy if she knew, but what she don't knowcan't anger her

And I bet he has remembered every single word! Good lad for being sensible enough - even at 5 - to know not to repeat it to your mum.

I was stupid enough to have once said the "C" word to my mum.....never again!!! And I still remember it, 30 odd years later!