Can you argue with a 4-0 away win? (14/9)

proudtosaythatname · Post by **proudtosaythatname** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:37 am

Sorry, I can't accept that. The logical follow on is that maybe if Sven had picked Jeffers Fumbling Frannie might have made it? Is that a pig I see up there? Theo must have had the talent there for first Sven and then 'Absolutely Fabio' to pick him...

Post by **gooner.ed** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:40 am

proudtosaythatname wrote:Sorry, I can't accept that. The logical follow on is that maybe if Sven had picked Jeffers Fumbling Frannie might have made it? Is that a pig I see up there? Theo must have had the talent there for first Sven and then 'Absolutely Fabio' to pick him...

jeffers was capped for england while on arsenal's books... could be sven is not as good a coach as fabio... won't indulge egos etc...

barnetgooner · Post by **barnetgooner** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:24 pm

gooner.ed wrote:
it's well known that wenger doesn't coach as such. he puts on exercises that allow the players to develop particular skills and play with each other in a particular way. in this respect, he develops players who have a raw talent that he can spot can be harnessed for the good of arsenal. i am not overall a wenger critic, but i express opinions on things i don't think he gets right. walcott was bought in january 2006. over two and a half years later, he is finally starting to look like the player that we had hoped for. why has it taken so long? he's had enough chances. i think a lot of it is down to a week with a different coach. if you want some real wenger haters, look elsewhere on this forum. i am a fan, but not blind to his weaknesses.

how did he do with francis jeffers for example, who cost not much less than theo seven years back?

Why has it taken "so long" for Theo to start looking like the player we'd hoped for!!? Because he was 17 when we bought him for a start, not everyone can be like Cesc and be top class at that age. It's not really as simple as giving him chances (though as I pointed out in the other thread, he's really done a lot of impressive stuff already in his career). He is still young, raw and inexperienced so don't expect a week with Capello to have transformed him; he might be marginal and ineffective against Kazakhstan like he was at Fulham!

When you say "it's well known that wenger doesn't coach as such. he puts on exercises that allow the players to develop particular skills and play with each other in a particular way", I honestly don't understand what you mean. What is 'coaching' if not making the players do exercises that help them to develop skills and play together in a particular way!? And
I thought Boro Primarac did most of the main coaching stuff (working on particular skills etc) on the training ground? maybe I'm wrong but I thought that was Quieroz did a similar thing at Man U....

And citing Francis Jeffers doesn't help your argument at all; he was, admittedly, a bad Wenger purchase and a waste of money but that doesn't happen often. He proved throughout his career with several clubs he just wasn't a particularly good player - you really think a week with Capello would have made him good!? In fact, name me one player who Wenger didn't take to his full potential and went to another club where another manager made him a lot better than he was at Arsenal....

Post by **gooner.ed** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:17 pm

barnetgooner wrote: What is 'coaching' if not making the players do exercises that help them to develop skills and play together in a particular way!? And
I thought Boro Primarac did most of the main coaching stuff (working on particular skills etc) on the training ground? maybe I'm wrong but I thought that was Quieroz did a similar thing at Man U....

coaching is - for example - specifically instructing a player to compete for the second ball when the centre back has failed to win an aerial challenge. doesn't seem to happen a lot these days. happened before because the players had been coached to do it by previous bosses.

as for the queiroz/primorac comparison, primorac is a yes man. queiroz actually enhances ferguson's abilities with coaching. wenger owes primorac for his whistle blowing in france (tapie scandal) - he isn't employed for his coaching abilities. job for life as long as wenger's working somewhere.

anyway, my views on theo's change of performance level are only an opinion. somehow, this has turned into a huge debate on wenger's abilities. let me state that no-one but wenger could have achieved what he has at arsenal over the last 12 years - by which i mean trophies at a time when money was so tight. but you know what - the man has faults. he isn't perfect. one of them was his refusal to strengthen his hand over the summer and leave arsenal's money in the bank.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:13 pm

Gooner.Ed

Two Considerations:

ONE:

I feel strongly that in many cases there simply is a "Tipping Point".

Things came together for Theo this week, and he has shown what he has got.

Capello may well be the final catalyst that brought a lot of things together that had been worked on already, but had not quite come to fruition.

One particular thing to consider is how Theo has been brought along physically.

He had a few niggling injuries when he first joined the club.

(Then he was put into a weird situation by going to the World Cup unnecessarily.)

Then he had a shoulder operation.

We also know Wenger has "rationed him" to try to avoid the over-playing that affected Fowler and Owen.

Under those conditions, it was always going to take Theo longer to break through than a Rooney who was naturally stockily built at a younger age.

He is still only 19.

Very few are asking why Randall or Simpson or Gibbs have not broken through yet.
It is taken as read that at 18 and 19 they are on the fringes of the squad, but working hard in the reserves to advance.

TWO:

Someone "had a word" with Theo.

Not a rollocking, but a straight to the point chat.

"Pull your socks up, be more pro-active in games, or you will be stuck out wide, barely see the ball, and Eboue will keep you out the team"

Simple point, but it hit home.

Post by **gooner.ed** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:58 am

well whatever has happened - if indeed anything did - i reckon we are seeing a different player since he went away on england duty for the andorra and croatia matches. he disappointed me in the early games of the season, and now i can see the argument for him to be an automatic starter. which is what i wanted. never thought it would happen, but am glad it did.

he needs to work on the defensive side of his game now. won't get into a debate about how that might happen

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:40 pm

gooner.ed wrote:well whatever has happened - if indeed anything did - i reckon we are seeing a different player since he went away on england duty for the andorra and croatia matches. he disappointed me in the early games of the season, and now i can see the argument for him to be an automatic starter. which is what i wanted. never thought it would happen, but am glad it did.

he needs to work on the defensive side of his game now. won't get into a debate about how that might happen

He can tackle though, forge the game last season but one where he came on as a sub and straight away tackled back and won the ball.

Sammy Mooner · Post by **Sammy Mooner** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:28 pm

Everyone who makes it has a time when it just all goes right for them. With Theo it has been a confidence thing in my opinion. If Theo wasn't doing it in training he would not have been in our team and he would not have been in the England line-up. He's shown plenty of glimpses of what was to come in matches but has not previously put the sum of all the parts together. Except with the under 21's where he looked the part from day one.

Add that to the fact that he had to be retrained at Arsenal to take on players in a way that didn't just mean kicking the ball past the full back and running faster, as he was at Southampton. He's had to learn about tight marking, and being kicked, and being wound up and being shoved around physically. But he's now stronger so it is easier for him to cope with the tougher aspects now.

Also, and I've said this before many times, Theo came to football late. Kids start at 7 or 8 and by the age of 12 top quality players are doing things instinctively. Theo came to football at about age 11 so a lot of stuff didn't come naturally to him. Which is maybe good news because if he progresses from now on at the same rate he has up until now he will be one serious handful for opponents.