To DanielD

[enjibenji]

Olgit started this thread out of concern for DD and his family and asked for it not to be political. DD then says things like, Israel is prepared unlike the last time, we had no choice, and lets bring peace to the south. All relatively innocuous unless you realise that this is a euphemism for killing hundreds of innocent people.

Chippy.

I do not believe hundreds of innocent people have been killed in Gaza.

There have of course been civilian casualties on both sides, but a lot of those "civilians" in Gaza are Hamas fighters, who do not wear regular military uniform.

based on your knowledge is this, or just something you have read on the internet.

[QuartzGooner]

although im no expert by any means on the subject, theres certain protocol when in a war, ones that israel seems to ignore and unleash its full force on an army miniscule compared to its own, with no apparent compassion for the innocent people who die as a result of their over the top attacks.

That is simply not true.

Israel has acted ethicaly.

Gazans have been warned by phone calls and leaflets printed in Arabic, that Israel will take military action.

Missile attacks from the air are very accurate and are pinpoint on Hamas targets.

(Tank shells less so, and there has been some sad loss of civilian life too.)

Hamas do not wear bright red jackets and stand up in a field in Europe waving a flag to identify themselves.

They embed themselves in civilian areas, wearing regular clothing save for webbing jackets to hold ammunition.

Their arms stashes are in schools, their research and development facilities in the university.

Hamas has conducted a PR campaign to exagerate civilian casualties such as their old trick of using corpses again and again in front of the cameras, to make it look like new casualties have occured.


Israel has held a ceasefire from 1pm to 4pm each day to allow aid to get into Gaza, it has also taken Gaza civilian casualties into Israeli hospitals.


The Israeli military action is powerful yes, but I do not believe it is over the top.

What else is Israel to do?

There has been very little Israeli military action on Gaza fro eight years, whilst Hamas have launched thousand sof missiles at Israeli civilian areas with the intention of taking Israeli civilian life!

During this tie the Israeli civilian population in Gaza was withdrawn, and the Israeli military withdrew from Gaza too.

Yet Hamas and Islamic Jihad continued attacking.

Enough is enough, Israel had to act.

[Chippy]

Quartz, this guy was in the Israeli army and sees it differently to you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

I do understand your constant defence of Israel but please try to see why many Jews are comparing this to the Warsaw ghetto. You are allowing yourselves to become what you hate.

[MM99]

although im no expert by any means on the subject, theres certain protocol when in a war, ones that israel seems to ignore and unleash its full force on an army miniscule compared to its own, with no apparent compassion for the innocent people who die as a result of their over the top attacks.

That is simply not true.

Israel has acted ethicaly.

Gazans have been warned by phone calls and leaflets printed in Arabic, that Israel will take military action.

Missile attacks from the air are very accurate and are pinpoint on Hamas targets.

(Tank shells less so, and there has been some sad loss of civilian life too.)

Hamas do not wear bright red jackets and stand up in a field in Europe waving a flag to identify themselves.

They embed themselves in civilian areas, wearing regular clothing save for webbing jackets to hold ammunition.

Their arms stashes are in schools, their research and dvelopment facilites in the university.


Israel has held a ceasefire from 1pm to 4pm each day to allow aid to get into Gaza, it has also taken Gaza civilian casualties into Israeli hospitals.


The Israeli military action is powerful yes, but I do not believe it is over the top.

What else is Israel to do?

There has been very little Israeli military action on Gaza fro eight years, whilst Hamas have launched thousand sof missiles at Israeli civilian areas with the intention of taking Israeli civilian life!

During this tie the Israeli civilian population in Gaza was withdrawn, and the Israeli military withdrew from Gaza too.

Yet Hamas and Islamic Jihad continued attacking.

Enough is enough, Israel had to act.

and thats why "Navi Pellay, the UN's Human Rights Commissioner, has called for an independent investigation into whether war crimes had been committed came not a moment too soon" is the genral feeling amongst members of the UN?
last comment im gonna make on the subject, the jewish people shouldnt even be in that region and this is all the work of the zionist movement and AIPAC. hope thats not too contreversial.

[QuartzGooner]

Quartz, this guy was in the Israeli army and sees it differently to you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

I do understand your constant defence of Israel but please try to see why many Jews are comparing this to the Warsaw ghetto. You are allowing yourselves to become what you hate.

That is where I strongly disagree.

Whilst i woudl not at all say that Gaza is a nice place to live, and of course thigns must be doen to improve the facilities and opportunites for Palestinians in Gaza, and to a lesser degree the Wset Bank (where conditions are much better), there is No comparison between Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto.

That ghetto was a holding pen for Polish Jews prior to planned mass execution.

Gaza is in the middle of a conflict that at the moment is in an intense phase of military action, but is no holding pen for any planned mass execution of a civian poplation.

Conditions the will be terrible, but once this phase of military action ends the conditions will alleviate.

Yes, there are those who have served in the Israeli military who have different views to me, and those who have served who have similar to me.

I doubt you will find any more than a handful of nutters in the Israeli militarily who want to be in Gaza rather than being at home with their families.

It is just they feel they have to do something about the Hamas.

As for the whole wider Israel/Palestinian conflict, it will carry on and on with no diplomatic solution, as it is a conflict ingrained on the very nature of the centuries old conflicting identities of the peoples who live there.
As such, despite people wanting to be at home rather than in military action, there will always be flare ups when the conflict drags people in.

Hardline Islam wants to conquer the world by force.

Israeli Jews do not want to be conquered by Islam.

So it will go on and on.


The only peace will be when there is a messianic age.

[QuartzGooner]

last comment im gonna make on the subject, the jewish people shouldnt even be in that region and this is all the work of the zionist movement and AIPAC. hope thats not too contreversial.

Never mind your "last comment" status.


The region is our homeland!

It is our only homeland.

From where do you say we should not be there?

On what basis is that other than your scientific and demographic and historic ignorance?

We are a middle eastern people, with middle eastern DNA.

The majority of "European" Jews have middle eastern DNA, mixed with some European DNA from our thousand years spent in Europe, prior to which we were in the Middle East.

I mean, anti Semites seem to spend quite a lot of time pointing us out in the street, searching for people who "Look Jewish".

How so if we are the same genetically as you Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

Even Ethiopian origin Jews, have shared matriarchial mitochondrial DNA with Middle Eastern populations, in a higher ratio than in surrounding non Jewish Ethiopian populations.

Out of Israeli Jews, about half their families immigrated in the last 60 years from Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Aden, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

And a tiny amount have actually lived in the land of Israel continually for over 3000 years.

Is that enough, "In the region" for you?

Combined with the fact, that Palestinians, whilst sharing some population that have middle eastern DNA in the immediate region of Israel, just as we do, have massive amounts of DNA from the wider region too.

Their population was much smaller a 100 years ago, and was welled by mass Arabic and Near Eastern migration as workers sought jobs in the emerging Jewish state.

Many Palestinains are from Iraqi, Lebaese, Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Bosnian origin.


"Zionist Conspiracy"!

That is the stuff of anti Semites.

It is the very essence of Judaism that the land of Israel is the holy land to which we as Jews have a special connection.

You can say you do not want us there and it is your opinion, but do not dress it up in terms of "anti Zionism" or some such phrase, because what it actually is is anti Judaism.

[Chippy]

The only peace will be when there is a messianic age

Hmmm

Read the second letter

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... rs-gaza-uk

and another famous Jew unhappy with what is going on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ott-israel

[QuartzGooner]

The only peace will be when there is a messianic age

Hmmm

Read the second letter

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... rs-gaza-uk

and another famous Jew unhappy with what is going on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ott-israel

Just because some left Wing Guardian writers and readers are unhappy with it does not mean they speak for all Jews, or that their views are correct to any great degree.

They are rightly concerned with suffering civilians, but you have to question why they do not protest about about Hamas atrocities?

Such people in my experience have not come to terms with being Jewish and see it as shameful rather than an opportunity to express spirituality and refine moral character.

Something that all people regardless of ethnic origin should have among their goals in life.

[MM99]

last comment im gonna make on the subject, the jewish people shouldnt even be in that region and this is all the work of the zionist movement and AIPAC. hope thats not too contreversial.

Never mind your "last comment" status.


The region is our homeland!

It is our only homeland.

From where do you say we should not be there?

On what basis is that other than your scientific and demographic and historic ignorance?

We are a middle eastern people, with middle eastern DNA.

The majority of "European" Jews have middle eastern DNA, mixed with some European DNA from our thousand years spent in Europe, prior to which we were in the Middle East.

I mean, anti Semites seem to spend quite a lot of time pointing us out in the street, searching for people who "Look Jewish".

How so if we are the same genetically as you Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

Even Ethiopian origin Jews, have shared matriarchial mitochondrial DNA with Middle Eastern populations, in a higher ratio than in surrounding non Jewish Ethiopian populations.

Out of Israeli Jews, about half their families immigrated in the last 60 years from Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Aden, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

And a tiny amount have actually lived in the land of Israel continually for over 3000 years.

Is that enough, "In the region" for you?

Combined with the fact, that Palestinians, whilst sharing some population that have middle eastern DNA in the immediate region of Israel, just as we do, have massive amounts of DNA from the wider region too.

Their population was much smaller a 100 years ago, and was welled by mass Arabic and Near Eastern migration as workers sought jobs in the emerging Jewish state.

Many Palestinains are from Iraqi, Lebaese, Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Bosnian origin.


"Zionist Conspiracy"!

That is the stuff of anti Semites.

It is the very essence of Judaism that the land of Israel is the holy land to which we as Jews have a special connection.

You can say you do not want us there and it is your opinion, but do not dress it up in terms of "anti Zionism" or some such phrase, because what it actually is is anti Judaism.

yes you are, but that gives you no right to claim those lands for yoursleves, killing innocent people in the progress, just because you think a god made a special deal with you for you to have those lands.
end of WW2, jewish influence over america, creation of jewish state, AIPA, 'nuff said.

btw i apologise if i seem to come on too strong, its just those are my views and i certainly dont mean any harm to you by them.

[QuartzGooner]

last comment im gonna make on the subject, the jewish people shouldnt even be in that region and this is all the work of the zionist movement and AIPAC. hope thats not too contreversial.

Never mind your "last comment" status.


The region is our homeland!

It is our only homeland.

From where do you say we should not be there?

On what basis is that other than your scientific and demographic and historic ignorance?

We are a middle eastern people, with middle eastern DNA.

The majority of "European" Jews have middle eastern DNA, mixed with some European DNA from our thousand years spent in Europe, prior to which we were in the Middle East.

I mean, anti Semites seem to spend quite a lot of time pointing us out in the street, searching for people who "Look Jewish".

How so if we are the same genetically as you Anglo-Saxons and Celts?

Even Ethiopian origin Jews, have shared matriarchial mitochondrial DNA with Middle Eastern populations, in a higher ratio than in surrounding non Jewish Ethiopian populations.

Out of Israeli Jews, about half their families immigrated in the last 60 years from Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Aden, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

And a tiny amount have actually lived in the land of Israel continually for over 3000 years.

Is that enough, "In the region" for you?

Combined with the fact, that Palestinians, whilst sharing some population that have middle eastern DNA in the immediate region of Israel, just as we do, have massive amounts of DNA from the wider region too.

Their population was much smaller a 100 years ago, and was welled by mass Arabic and Near Eastern migration as workers sought jobs in the emerging Jewish state.

Many Palestinians are from Iraqi, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Bosnian origin.


"Zionist Conspiracy"!

That is the stuff of anti Semites.

It is the very essence of Judaism that the land of Israel is the holy land to which we as Jews have a special connection.

You can say you do not want us there and it is your opinion, but do not dress it up in terms of "anti Zionism" or some such phrase, because what it actually is is anti Judaism.

yes you do, but that gives you no right to claim those lands for yoursleves, killing innocent people in the progress, just because you think a god made a special deal with you for you to have those lands.
end of WW2, jewish influence over america, creation of jewish state, AIPA, 'nuff said.

btw i apologise if i seem to come on too strong, its just those are my views and i certainly dont mean any harm to you by them.

We do believe that G-D made a special promise for us to live in the land of Israel.

Whether you think it is right or not have that believe, it is what we believe.

Your view of "Jewish influence over America etc" is, and I am not being condescending here but I am being honest, rather narrow and limited to the immediate time frame of the 20th century.

We lived in Israel over 3000 years ago.

About 99.9% of us were exiled by the year 200 C.E, and since then have been trying to go back to our land.

That process of settling and living in the land is ingrained in all our liturgy, which stems back over 2000 years, and in some cases goes back over 5000 years.

As far back as the mid 19th century, the land was sparsely inhabited, and much was covered by malarial swamps.

I was not as if we walked into a ready made country and kicked out a population.

There never was a nation state called Palestine in the land of Israel.

There never has been a Palestinian currency or capital city in the land of Israel.

Most of the people who consider themselves Palestinians were only so as a result of their mass immigration from the late 1880's onwards.

Jews settled a land, and paid for the land that we settled, paying the owners of the land where applicable, and settling the majority rest of unclaimed unowned swamp land.

The Arabs that lived there were not forced to leave or even asked to leave, by the Jews.

Their own leaders told them to leave in 1948.

Some stayed and took up Israeli passports, others fled and became the basis for the population known as Palestinian.

The British Mandate known as Palestine that existed from the end of the Ottoman Empire, actually encompassed the country known today as Jordan.

It was designated a homeland for Jews and Arabs, yet the Jews were only given less than a quarter of the land by the UN.

There is already homeland for Palestinians, it is called Jordan.

[MM99]

well thats ridiculous, let us deal with facts and not beliefs, especially if youre going to be killing civillians and innocent people. imo simply believing you have a right to a land because you believe god promised it to you is bordering on lunacy if you want to justify the real killing of thousands of people.
correct me if im wrong but the jewish people illegally immigrated to the region of palestine, in violation of british restrictions, from 1934 to 1948. with jews then accounting for 33% of the population of palestine, which was previuously 11%. seems to me that the majority of the immigration happened after ww2 as opposed to the increase over a period of time that you suggest.

[MizzNaughty]

typical for it to get political on here
cant someone just close this thread? we know DanielD is okay, so isnt that enough? before people start ripping each others heads off again

[MM99]

typical for it to get political on here
cant someone just close this thread? we know DanielD is okay, so isnt that enough? before people start ripping each others heads off again

noones ripping anyones head of, whats wrong with some debating as long as it remains good mannered? makes a change from all the 'eboue/adebayor/bendtner is shit' topics constantly posted.

[MizzNaughty]

because it always turns ugly, like previous threads. i just think its best things stay arsenal related.

[QuartzGooner]

well thats ridiculous, let us deal with facts and not beliefs, especially if youre going to be killing civillians and innocent people. imo simply believing you have a right to a land because you believe god promised it to you is bordering on lunacy if you want to justify the real killing of thousands of people.
correct me if im wrong but the jewish people illegally immigrated to the region of palestine, in violation of british restrictions, from 1934 to 1948. with jews then accounting for 33% of the population of palestine, which was previuously 11%. seems to me that the majority of the immigration happened after ww2 as opposed to the increase over a period of time that you suggest.

The increase in Jewish immigration to the land of Israel started from the 1880s.

It is not about how many Jews arrived and when, as we were returning to our land!

There was massive Jewish immigration to British Mandate Palestine, yes, and most of it was illegal under British law.


Who were the British to stop Jews living in Israel? On whose authority?

Britain was given the authority in a mandate by the UN to administer the land, and to prevent outbreaks or violence between Jews and Arabs.

Yet despite a sizeable British military and police presence, the situation from 1927 onwards (Hebron massacre of Jews by Arabs), descended into warfare and civil chaos.

The British eventually realised this, withdrawing in 1948 (from India around that time too for similar reasons).



I am proud that Jews broke British immigration law then.

What was the alternative for us?

To live at sea?

To stay in Eastern Europe and be murdered by the Nazis?

The USA closed it's doors to any sizeable Jewish immigration from 1924 on, even turning back a Jewish refugee ship from which nearly all the inhabitants perished in the Holocaust.

The British were merely temporary custodians of the land, and by the mid 1940's it was clear their time was up.

Might be odd for some readers to see me write that, being British myself, and having had family who served in both world wars for the British military and a Jewish friend who is currently in the British army serving in Afghanistan, but for some of us the world of national identity and political allegiance is not always a smooth one



To you, the idea of G-D presenting us with a land is "ridiciulous".

That is your right to believe that.

To me though, it is a core belief, and more viable and valid than any U.N. mandate.



How does it justify killing thousands of people?

The killing of thousands of people is justified if it is because those people repeatedly attack you with the sole intention of destroying your entire nation.

They want to destroy us more than they want to live life themselves, so use suicide bombers!



They have had repeated opportunities to build an economically and politically viable nation state, yet prefer to wage war than to build that state.

Those who want peace amongst the Palestinians have been sold down the river by their bloodthirsty counterparts.

In 2000 they were a few months away from setting up as an independent state.
Postage stamps had been printed, an international phone code assigned, and rail, road, and air infrastructure improvements planned.

Yet they threw it away on the pretence of squabbling over tiny amounts of land.
Arafat had it in his grasp, and he threw it away.