As I said, I will not go into any political debates on here, based on the fact that this war continues, and people are getting killed on both sides.
Let me just say this, for those of you that say Israel is killing so many civilians.
Some of you (Pro-Arabic guys, mostly), may say it's ridiculous, but the fact that so many civilians are hurt is mostly Hamas' fault. If you think they care about their civilians, half as much as any normal country, you're wrong.
They hide missiles and shoot them from Schools. There are reports that their leaders are in Shifa hospital hiding. They're using their civilians as a human shield. That's a fact. There are thousands of examples like the last two.
What can Israel do, let them shoot missiles at us until they have no more, or wait until they get ones that can reach Tel Aviv?
Again though, for the sake of respect to the casualties in this war, please lock this thread.
To DanielD
and of the course the UN school that was bombed and the red cross drivers were all hamas as well were theyQuartz Gooner wrote:Chippy.Chippy wrote:Olg It started this thread out of concern for DD and his family and asked for it not to be political. DD then says things like, Israel is prepared unlike the last time, we had no choice, and lets bring peace to the south. All relatively innocuous unless you realise that this is a euphemism for killing hundreds of innocent people.
I do not believe hundreds of innocent people have been killed in Gaza.
There have of course been civilian casualties on both sides, but a lot of those "civilians" in Gaza are Hamas fighters, who do not wear regular military uniform.
close the barriers and keep them pinned down so then it becomes a turkey shoot is israels answer to everything isnt it,
im not coming back onto this thread again because im sick of what israel are doing ( again ) and will more then likely say something i regret
Let me just say man, you talk shit and you know it. No one intelligent enough believes word that zionists (yes zionists, not jews) are saying.QuartzGooner wrote:Thing is, this whole comment shows just how far apart we are on this subject.MM99 wrote:what digger was trying to say was that there appears to be a different rule for those who are on side with the americans and another for those who arent. he wasnt actually saying it was genocide. he was just making the point that if it had happened to an ally of america it would be portrayed that way in the media.
I see it reported in the media as a "massacre" and "Israeli aggression" etc, with a fairly strong anti Israel bias in the media. I consider the media reporting to be better than it has in the past on the Middle East, but still showing an anti Israel bias.
I believe the Israeli military action to be a justified response to Hamas aggression.
Not a nice business at all, and one in which innocents have died, and of course living conditions in Gaza during this conflict are very hard.
Yet it is a war, one in which I am on one side of the conflict, as opposed to many on this website who are observers of the conflict.
Therefore I take a certain stance, and defend my position, fully aware that it is not the trendy thing to do in "liberal" Western Europe.
Anyway, I leave things up to the mods.
The thread started in good faith and for reasons of concern for DanielD's welfare.
If the mods feel this thread has subsequently gone too far off course, then lock it.
295 killed PALESTINIAN children in last two weeks (and that's just before last night Israeli air raides)...how do you sleep at night I wonder? Dreaming of biblical Israel?
And of course DanielD is ok, he was fuckin logged on, wasn't he?
As for 'courages people who live down south', as stated by DanielD:
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ittle.html
...and also...
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519
...if you are remotely interested in THE TRUTH...
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519
...if you are remotely interested in THE TRUTH...
Ah, Israeli - Palestinian politics!
Riveting stuff!
Anyone heard the song Aenema by Tool??? It talks about the San Andreas fault breaking off and dropping Hollywood and everything associated with it into the ocean.
To be honest, if something similar happened in Gaza and the surrounding areas, I think a lot of people would be very thankful indeed.
Riveting stuff!
Anyone heard the song Aenema by Tool??? It talks about the San Andreas fault breaking off and dropping Hollywood and everything associated with it into the ocean.
To be honest, if something similar happened in Gaza and the surrounding areas, I think a lot of people would be very thankful indeed.
The Israeli military may have committed war crimes in Gaza, the UN's most senior human rights official said tonight, as Israeli troops pressed on with their increasingly deadly offensive in defiance of a UN security council resolution demanding a ceasefire.
Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, singled out the killing this week of up to 30 Palestinians in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, when Israel shelled a house where its troops had told about 110 civilians to take shelter.
Pillay, a former international criminal court judge from South Africa, told the BBC the incident "appears to have all the elements of war crimes". She called for "credible, independent and transparent" investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law.
OCHA said the incident took place on 4 January, a day after Israel began its ground offensive in Gaza. According to testimonies gathered by the UN, Israeli soldiers evacuated about 110 Palestinians to a single-storey house in Zeitoun. The evacuees were instructed to stay indoors for their safety but 24 hours later the Israeli army shelled the house. About half the Palestinians sheltering in the house were children, OCHA said. The report also complains that the Israeli Defence Force prevented medical teams from entering the area to evacuate the wounded.
I'm not a prolific poster, but there is hell of a lot of crap being spouted on here by very ignorant people; possibly the most offensive one suggesting that Quartz is somehow responsible for the death of innocent people.
Time for more Jewish Arsenal supporters to stand up and be counted methinks.
Get real people. How do you think Britain, America, France or anyone else would react if rockets were raining down on its civilians for years.
Take a look at a map of the Middle East - you'll see that the Arab countries could solve the Palestinian problem in an instant if they wished to, but how much more convenient to keep them in their present situation as a means of attacking Israel.
Amazing how so many people support self-determination for all peoples....except for the Jews.
Amazing how many people go out of their way to stress how they are anti-Zionist but not antisemitic. How many of you actually understand what Zionism is or what it actually means?
No doubt a lot of the same people fail to understand why use of the "Y" word in referring to the clowns at WHL and their supporters is so damn offensive to Jewish people.
Thank God for Quartz Gooner - a ship of sanity and calm in an ocean of ignorance. The schwarma and Maccabi's are on me at the next game mate!
A better man than me put a lot of this better than I ever could:
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
Time for more Jewish Arsenal supporters to stand up and be counted methinks.
Get real people. How do you think Britain, America, France or anyone else would react if rockets were raining down on its civilians for years.
Take a look at a map of the Middle East - you'll see that the Arab countries could solve the Palestinian problem in an instant if they wished to, but how much more convenient to keep them in their present situation as a means of attacking Israel.
Amazing how so many people support self-determination for all peoples....except for the Jews.
Amazing how many people go out of their way to stress how they are anti-Zionist but not antisemitic. How many of you actually understand what Zionism is or what it actually means?
No doubt a lot of the same people fail to understand why use of the "Y" word in referring to the clowns at WHL and their supporters is so damn offensive to Jewish people.
Thank God for Quartz Gooner - a ship of sanity and calm in an ocean of ignorance. The schwarma and Maccabi's are on me at the next game mate!
A better man than me put a lot of this better than I ever could:
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
Simon
I am disgusted that you play the anti semite card here. I am not anti semitic. I have deliberately quoted throughout Jewish or neutral commentators because this is often the lazy and insulting excuse used by supporters of the current Israeli position.
I would be against any regime that kills people indiscriminately, including our own and the the US disgraceful behaviour. You should perhaps ask yourself how you can support a regime that
1 Believes killing nearly 1000 Palestinians (a third being children) as a proportionate response.
2 Has members who talk of a Shoah for the Palestinians and putting them on a diet (a euphemism for starving them)
3 Set up what is effectively a punishment camp in Gaza
4 Constantly steals Palestinian territory for settlements
etc etc
Do you really believe that what Israel is doing is going to lead to a lasting peace. Isn't it far more likely to radicalise and motivate a whole new generation of young Arabs.
I am disgusted that you play the anti semite card here. I am not anti semitic. I have deliberately quoted throughout Jewish or neutral commentators because this is often the lazy and insulting excuse used by supporters of the current Israeli position.
I would be against any regime that kills people indiscriminately, including our own and the the US disgraceful behaviour. You should perhaps ask yourself how you can support a regime that
1 Believes killing nearly 1000 Palestinians (a third being children) as a proportionate response.
2 Has members who talk of a Shoah for the Palestinians and putting them on a diet (a euphemism for starving them)
3 Set up what is effectively a punishment camp in Gaza
4 Constantly steals Palestinian territory for settlements
etc etc
Do you really believe that what Israel is doing is going to lead to a lasting peace. Isn't it far more likely to radicalise and motivate a whole new generation of young Arabs.
Chippy
I am not playing any card. Nor do I support any "regime" or government.
My disgust would be at your one-sided condemnation of Israel's actions in trying to protect its very existence and that fact that you have no similar condemnation for the terrorists of Hamas who are responsible for this state of affairs.
I mourn any loss of life of innocent civilians - Palestinian or Israeli, but I note you make no mention of the Israeli victims. I shed no tears for the dead Hamas terrorists who targeted innocent men, women and children that you include in your figures.
Israel has given land for peace in the past. I see no equivalent gesture from Arab countries either to give up part of their lands as part of a state of Palestine or to compensate the hundreds of thousands of Jews they persecuted and threw out of their countries (my own family included).
Getting back to the point of the original thread - Daniel I hope you and your family are doing OK in Tel Aviv.
Now perhaps we can get back to the point of this forum and talk about football. At least that's something where we all share at least some common ground.
I am not playing any card. Nor do I support any "regime" or government.
My disgust would be at your one-sided condemnation of Israel's actions in trying to protect its very existence and that fact that you have no similar condemnation for the terrorists of Hamas who are responsible for this state of affairs.
I mourn any loss of life of innocent civilians - Palestinian or Israeli, but I note you make no mention of the Israeli victims. I shed no tears for the dead Hamas terrorists who targeted innocent men, women and children that you include in your figures.
Israel has given land for peace in the past. I see no equivalent gesture from Arab countries either to give up part of their lands as part of a state of Palestine or to compensate the hundreds of thousands of Jews they persecuted and threw out of their countries (my own family included).
Getting back to the point of the original thread - Daniel I hope you and your family are doing OK in Tel Aviv.
Now perhaps we can get back to the point of this forum and talk about football. At least that's something where we all share at least some common ground.
-
Cus Geezer
- Posts: 1869
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:09 pm
I suppose it's because both had a large contribution in the creation and settlement of Jews in the state of Israel.enjibenji wrote:Mike graham on talk sport made a very good point the other night.Why do the us and Britain feel that they should be going out keep peace. Its nothing to fucking to with them...
Israel has a large amount of armoury too compared with the rest of the area, as an ally it can keep any would be recalcitrant Arab states in place - a 'policeman' state if you will, like Iraq and previously Iran were prior to changes in regime/stance of the dictator.
-
Cus Geezer
- Posts: 1869
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:09 pm
What media are you talking about?QuartzGooner wrote: I see it reported in the media as a "massacre" and "Israeli aggression" etc, with a fairly strong anti Israel bias in the media. I consider the media reporting to be better than it has in the past on the Middle East, but still showing an anti Israel bias.
If it involves this guy....
or this guy.....
....it's almost always pro-Israel
[/quote]
-
olgitgooner
- Posts: 7431
- Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:39 am
- Location: Brexitland
-
Cus Geezer
- Posts: 1869
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:09 pm
What fucking bollocks you talk!When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it
Zionism is a political ideology, the Jews are a race of people. Zionism and Judaism are not one and the same thing.
Is someone who criticises Communism a racist because the vast majority of those presently under Communist rule Chinese and therefore hate all 'slitty eyed gooks'?
Rather convienient how everyone who criticises Israel happens to be anti-semetic isn't it?
