To DanielD

[Lethal]

Your jewish quartz ?

that i didnt no

[QuartzGooner]

1000 dead Palestinians - 13 dead israelis...river Euphrates here they come...

Just out of interest; are Jews allowed to kill on saturday?

We can kill on any day as long as it is in self defence, which the current military action is.


There are many more dead Palestinians than dead Israelis...but that was always going to be the case as Israel is using superior weaponry.

But that is not a sin.

So far half the Palestinoian deaths are confirmed as Hamas and Islamic Jihad military, the rest are believed to contain high number of Hamas and Islamic Jihad too but cannot be verified as many bodies remain under the rubble.

.

1 out of 2 aye? that's not bad going. Who "believes" the rest to contain a high number of Hamas? That's quite a good source, I wish i'd listened to him earlier woulda cleared up all misunderstandings. Nice Israel you done it again, may you all burn in hell

Done what again?

Defend itself?

Has to if attacked.

By thousands of missiles, targeting civilian areas,

[Chippy]

Quartz can you not even give a slight indication that killing about 300 children just might be the teensiest bit wrong. You cant write God but you can defend killing innocent women and children. Weird morals.

[QuartzGooner]

Quartz can you not even give a slight indication that killing about 300 children just might be the teensiest bit wrong. You cant write God but you can defend killing innocent women and children. Weird morals.

It is a horrible consequence of the military campaign.

Of course I would prefer if no one died.

But there are three fundamental things to be taken into account:


1) Jews/Israelis vs Arabs/Muslims is a war that will rumble on until the Messianic era.
It is a conflict of spiritual nations, two of Abraham's sons warring with each other.



2) Israel intentionally targets Hamas operatives, arms stores, tunnels, etc.
Never has intentionally targeted any civilians.

Has nothing to gain from targeting civilians, and is terrible for PR.

The civilian deaths are either because of aiming/information error by the Israelis, or because Hamas personnel have fired from buildings inhabited by civilians.
Israel will fire back at the source of fire.


Hamas and Islamic Jihad on the other hand fire their missiles into Israel with no attempt to avoid civilian targets.
They do not even make any attempt to avoid their fellow Muslims, at least one of whom was one of the casualties of this war on the Israeli side.

They glorify death, and seek "martyrdom".
Death is valued more than life.
To the extent they believe blowing themselves up in restaurants, buses and tube trains is a positive act.


3) Hamas has been armed, trained and advised by Iran.
It is not a group of kids with catapults, but a military force with machine guns, land mines, RPGs, mortars and missiles.
Iran is seeking it's own nucleur weapon and most of the rest of the world is trying to stop it.
This Gazan war is part of the Iran vs Rest of the World tension that has been building since the late seventies.


What alternative is there for Israel but to fight Hamas and Islamic Jihad?


The U.N?

Effective in Serbia, but have had little success in Darfur (genocide, rape and slavery still occuring), or Zimbabwe (chaos) or North Korea (a million people died in famine caused by government mismanagement, many masses of people in concentration camps and forced labour camps).


We have had pages of discussion and argument here but most political initiatives have failed for 60 years.

Talk of Israel going back to 1967 borders is a familiar call from some.

What would that achieve?
Hamas and Jihad would just carry on fighting, they do not care about those borders, they want all the land.

Then they would want all the Palestinians to be under their brand of fanatical Islam.

Proof?

Israel has not been in Gaza since 2005, yet the rocket attacks continue.

Israel has not been in Lebanon since 2000, yet the rocket attacks continued from Hezbollah in 2006. Much quieter since them, but Hezbollah has been re-armed.

When Hamas took over in Gaza, the first thing that happened was they fought the Palestinian Authority/Fatah!



The only way to dampen down the will of the Islamic radicals is to bombard them until they are severely weakened.
It may not crush them 100%, but can set them back for a period of relative calm.

Example one:

After losing four wars with Israel, Egypt and Jordan made peace in 1978.
They had enough, their will to fight was over.
The gains of peace outweighed the perils of war.

Example Two:

Look at what has happened in the North with Hezbollah.

They fought in 2006, but in this war they have launched less than ten missiles.

They know that any attack by them will result in a huge Israeli air campaign that will destroy most of Lebanon's infrastructure.

They cannot risk that so soon after the destruction of the last war.


Massive military action can therefore provide a deterrent against the terrorists, in this world order.

Spiritual action can bring about the lasting piece, which is a new world order that would result from a Messiah revealing himself and ushering in a heightened era of peace, technology and international co-operation.

A future world view and belief common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam (though of course with differences in the detail).

[RaM]

Massive military action can therefore provide a deterrent against the terrorists, in this world order.

Spiritual action can bring about the lasting piece, which is a new world order that would result from a Messiah revealing himself and ushering in a heightened era of peace, technology and international co-operation.

A future world view and belief common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam (though of course with differences in the detail).

Wait, wait, wait....

Maybe I'm not understanding this right, but in simple terms....


Temporary solutions (in the form of attacks like the current one) must continue indefinitely to create temporary (and never complete) periods of peace (which are always threatened by the potential for war anyway).

And no other solution need be looked at because, eventually, the messiah will arrive to make it all ok???

[DanielD]

I for once don't agree with Quartz, on some things.

I don't think Israel's Intelligence has let us down in this war.

The army is only targeting Hamas bases and Launching areas. The fact that they're near civilians, is because Hamas don't give a shit about them.

They Put their Arsenal ( ) in mosques and schools (not to mention the fact that they're booby-trapping them too) and in several other civilian-territories. They don't care about the women and children. Actually, I think they are somewhat happy, because they can show the world what have evil Israel has done to them, when they only show corpses of children.

We don't target civilians, this is Hamas at it's best.

I do hope for a cease-fire soon, and I do think it will last much longer, because if we close down all the smuggling tunnels, and the passages to Gaza will be under international supervision. Hamas won't be able to get new rockets to shoot on Israel, so they won't be able to.

I do hope the Palestinians have learned from their huge mistake when they elected Hamas. They only brought fear and terror to them.

[Simon]

The army is only targeting Hamas bases and Launching areas. The fact that they're near civilians, is because Hamas don't give a shit about them.

They Put their Arsenal ( ) in mosques and schools (not to mention the fact that they're booby-trapping them too) and in several other civilian-territories. They don't care about the women and children. Actually, I think they are somewhat happy, because they can show the world what have evil Israel has done to them, when they only show corpses of children.

We don't target civilians, this is Hamas at it's best.

I do hope for a cease-fire soon, and I do think it will last much longer, because if we close down all the smuggling tunnels, and the passages to Gaza will be under international supervision. Hamas won't be able to get new rockets to shoot on Israel, so they won't be able to.

I do hope the Palestinians have learned from their huge mistake when they elected Hamas. They only brought fear and terror to them.

Thanks for putting it into perspective, Daniel. It seems some people's blind hatred of Israel makes them fail to see what's really going on here. It's interesting that nobody except you, Quartz and I have any words of condemnation for the Hamas terrorists who have so cynically manipulated the Palestinians and deliberately put women and children in the line of fire and have no qualms whatsoever in deliberately murdering Israeli women and children.

Interesting too how Egypt is not exactly crazy about opening up its border with Gaza.

I think the Arab states delight in using Palestinians as a political football to attack Israel. Why are Palestinians kept in refugee camps in Lebanon and other Arab states and not given nationality of those countries?

My father's family was forced to leave Iraq and had their land, property and possessions stolen. My uncle was tortured so severely it left him paralysed and his body so weak that he died a young man. My family witnessed their friends hanged in the streets, for as they were Jewish they must have been "Zionist spies" ...yet nobody talks about compensating them or the hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab lands who were similarly dispossessed, persecuted, tortured or murdered. Neither is my son or I or indeed any of my family described as "Iraqi refugees". Nor would we describe ourselves as such - We are proud to be British citizens.

I never hear any of these issues brought up when talking about a "peace settlement" in the Middle East.

[Simon]

The sooner Israel is destroyed the better.

Nice Israel you done it again, may you all burn in hell

Goonarmy

As you seem to hate Israel so passionately why not put your money where your mouth is? I'm sure you'd love to volunteer on a suicide mission so you could blow up some Israeli women and children. I will personally pay for your explosives belt. I'm guessing you haven't done this before, so I'll also find you a nice big empty field or open space for you to practise first.

[skipper]

I for once don't agree with Quartz, on some things.

I don't think Israel's Intelligence has let us down in this war.

The army is only targeting Hamas bases and Launching areas. The fact that they're near civilians, is because Hamas don't give a shit about them.
They Put their Arsenal ( ) in mosques and schools (not to mention the fact that they're booby-trapping them too) and in several other civilian-territories. They don't care about the women and children. Actually, I think they are somewhat happy, because they can show the world what have evil Israel has done to them, when they only show corpses of children.

We don't target civilians, this is Hamas at it's best.

I do hope for a cease-fire soon, and I do think it will last much longer, because if we close down all the smuggling tunnels, and the passages to Gaza will be under international supervision. Hamas won't be able to get new rockets to shoot on Israel, so they won't be able to.

I do hope the Palestinians have learned from their huge mistake when they elected Hamas. They only brought fear and terror to them.

As I said at beginning, NO ONE believes a word of zionist propaganda anymore. So don't bother.

It's time to call Israel what it really is - A FASCIST STATE

[Simon]

Skipper

No doubt you think Hamas are a lovely cuddly liberation organisation. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

You clearly have no idea what fascism is. You should think yourself lucky you've never lived under fascism. However Jewish people do know exactly what fascism and National Socialism are all about.

That's why Israel will defend itself when faced with enemies who want to destroy it, especially when that enemy is Islamic fascists so fulsomely supported by people such as yourself who see nothing wrong with an organisation that calls for the annihilation of an entire country and its people, sends its children on suicide murder missions and cynically uses women and children as shields.

I still note that you have not once condemned Hamas for its deliberate murder of civilians or use of the people it claims to represent as human shields.

That pretty much tells me everything I need to know about you and where you're coming from.

You know what Skipper, there'll be peace in the Middle East when Hamas learn to love their children as much as the Israelis love their children. Until that day comes I mourn for every victim of this conflict irrespective of their nationality, religion or ethnic origin. How unlike you and your ilk who seek to demonise a democratic state and its people through blind prejudice and ignorance.

[RaM]

No side is innocent in this. Just my opinion.

Both sides are partially "in the wrong" - not just in this conflict, but from, as far as I know and have gleaned from this thread, the very beginning of their relations.

[SPUDMASHER]

Ok guys, I think this has run on quite well and on the large has been a sensible debate. There's been one or two comments that are near the mark though. I'm not going to lock the thread as I don't want this place to censor free thinking. I'm just going to ask everyone to leave it now and move on to other things.
It would appear that fault lies on both sides to varying degrees throughout history and whatever is said here isn't going to change it. Time to discuss something else.

[RaM]

WOOOHOOOO!!!!

I had the last word, and Spuddy agreed!


I win! I win! I win! I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!I win! I win! I win! I win!I win! I win!I win! I win! I win!








There you go, the sensibility of the thread has just been completely destroyed. Well done for getting that far though, congrats everyone.

[skipper]

Ok guys, I think this has run on quite well and on the large has been a sensible debate. There's been one or two comments that are near the mark though. I'm not going to lock the thread as I don't want this place to censor free thinking. I'm just going to ask everyone to leave it now and move on to other things.
It would appear that fault lies on both sides to varying degrees throughout history and whatever is said here isn't going to change it. Time to discuss something else.

Fair Enough, it's only 5 days left till evil monkey George Bush leaves effing White House and something tells me that's when Israel is going to stop this massacre...

So I'll leave you with thoughts from Noam Chomsky, who is American, Jewish, but above all - a human first:

http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N63/chomskytalk.html

(takes about 5 minutes to read)

“Supporters of Israel are in reality supporters of its moral degeneration,â€

[QuartzGooner]

Spuddy, I know you are not locking this thread yet, and whilst I understand why you want us to leave it, I feel obliged to answer those who have specifically mentioned my points.

RAM

Yes, I am saying that military action will provide temporary calmer periods followed by another flare up, ad infinitum, until a Messiah arrives.

DANIELD

There has not been 100% confirmed intelligence errors by the IDF . Yet, there have been some actions in this war that may have been in error.

I am of course a staunch supporter of Israel and this war, but I know that war by it's very nature can have mistakes, and there do appear to have been one or possibly two examples of "friendly fire" having happened.
Even with guided missiles being very acccurate these days, mistakes might happen with less modern types of weapon.

Though of course there have been instances where the IAF have stopped missions because they might cause civilian casualties, whereas Hamas have never stopped a mission because it might cause civilian casualties!


SIMON

100% in agreement.


SKIPPER

Do not believe Israel is a fascist state. Where is your proof?

The propaganda effort, and lies, are spread by Hamas.

Noam Chomsky? So what if he is born Jewish (and I am not sure that is the case anyway)? His opinions are not representative of most Jews and I very much disagree with his opinions.