"Judge me in May".....OK Arsene, here goes

[Red Carpet]

I've expected not to be winning anything for the past 2/3 years whilst we committ into the staduim devlepment and payments. However, Wengers still made us 'fairly' competative iin this time.
Maybe that's we're his going wrong by giving us the glimer of hope!

Look at the squad and how much he's paid on it. Is it any wonder why he has to experiment and rely on youth, this was a plan set out age's ago ready for now.

Almunia - undisclosed fee (£2.5)
Sagna - £6.1m
Clichy - Free
Toure - £150,000
Gallas - +£5 million
Gibbs - Free
Eboue - Free(?)
Djourou -Free
Cesc - Free
Song - free
Diaby - £2m
Denilson - £3.4 m
Arshavin - £15m (?)
Nasri - £12.7 million
Rosicky £6M
RVP - £2.75
Walcott - £10M(?)
Vela - £550,000
Eduardo - £7.5 m
Adebayor - £7

Total spent - £75.65.
That's less then the squad of my fantasty football team.

Given what other clubs can do we really shouldn't be competiting. But we still there.
Look at the millions Chelsea have spent...Spurs have spent millions more then us with no success (baring the C/Cup)

Yes the gap is opening but it's temporary.

No no no Boomer.

This is the last I'm gonna say on the subject as clearly my point isn't getting through.

One season ago we had a squad capable of putting in a decent challenge. This squad should have been kept together and a sprinkling of talent added to it. The fact is more players left last summer than came in, whilst Adebayor was given incredible hulk type wages. Bleat about finances all you like but the fact we went from a win away from the title to being out by Novemeber has fuck all to do with the finances.

Our interest in silverware actually ended earlier last season than this season.
But lets not let fact get in the way of a good story.

[flash gunner]

I must admit it isnt in the spirit of the forum but i too am sick of talking about it just last thing to add is all this talk of being short of cash etc isnt fact as yet, let me explain

We dont know for sure that we have no money yes the stadium costs a lot but with extra revenue from it i thought we more than covered it. Now board members say we have the money to spend but reading between the lines maybe we havent but you cant base facts on reading between the lines. We dont know but if you go with facts ie a board member saying we have money to spend but Wenger wont spend it then (and i go back to the thread title) its time to judge and I dont think its good enough

[Red Carpet]

I must admit it isnt in the spirit of the forum but i too am sick of talking about it just last thing to add is all this talk of being short of cash etc isnt fact as yet, let me explain

We dont know for sure that we have no money yes the stadium costs a lot but with extra revenue from it i thought we more than covered it. Now board members say we have the money to spend but reading between the lines maybe we havent but you cant base facts on reading between the lines. We dont know but if you go with facts ie a board member saying we have money to spend but Wenger wont spend it then (and i go back to the thread title) its time to judge and I dont think its good enough

I do agree that the club send mixed messages about our financial predicament and that doesn't help.

[Boomer]

I've expected not to be winning anything for the past 2/3 years whilst we committ into the staduim devlepment and payments. However, Wengers still made us 'fairly' competative iin this time.
Maybe that's we're his going wrong by giving us the glimer of hope!

Look at the squad and how much he's paid on it. Is it any wonder why he has to experiment and rely on youth, this was a plan set out age's ago ready for now.

Almunia - undisclosed fee (£2.5)
Sagna - £6.1m
Clichy - Free
Toure - £150,000
Gallas - +£5 million
Gibbs - Free
Eboue - Free(?)
Djourou -Free
Cesc - Free
Song - free
Diaby - £2m
Denilson - £3.4 m
Arshavin - £15m (?)
Nasri - £12.7 million
Rosicky £6M
RVP - £2.75
Walcott - £10M(?)
Vela - £550,000
Eduardo - £7.5 m
Adebayor - £7

Total spent - £75.65.
That's less then the squad of my fantasty football team.

Given what other clubs can do we really shouldn't be competiting. But we still there.
Look at the millions Chelsea have spent...Spurs have spent millions more then us with no success (baring the C/Cup)

Yes the gap is opening but it's temporary.

No no no Boomer.

This is the last I'm gonna say on the subject as clearly my point isn't getting through.

One season ago we had a squad capable of putting in a decent challenge. This squad should have been kept together and a sprinkling of talent added to it. The fact is more players left last summer than came in, whilst Adebayor was given incredible hulk type wages. Bleat about finances all you like but the fact we went from a win away from the title to being out by Novemeber has fuck all to do with the finances.

Look who left and why. The only exception to this is Bert he didn't need to g. Others had forced Wengers hand.
However, it again beggs the question as to why?

I believe there is limited funds. That's not to say he couldn't buy as there I think he could have been replaced.

Look I'm on the Fence as to where Wenger is as far as I'm concerned. He's been brilliant and put as where we are but his works (and the boards to a degree) is not done.
He's made mistakes like leaving AA23 out and not addressing the needs of the team. Then he's always experimented hasn't he! We only look at the negatives.
Toure from midfield to Centre back worked, gambling on Overmars and Kanu (both with injuries) worked. Thiery to a striker was an okay move.
Maybe he though not to buy a Centre halve despite his comments end of last year. Djourou's really grown but with Gallas going we still need a strong centre half.
Also not to replace Flamini. (Biggest mistake IMO) The major reason as to why Cesc has been poor. Then he must have believed (like other players he's believed in) in Song as the man.

Also a factor from last year is RVP injuries. Great that he can now play but he can't partner with Ade. He's the wrong partner and vice versa. Ade scored 30 last year virtually on his own this year nothing. Also he now partly thinks he's the big 'I'am'. So big differences from last year.

Last season was the first without TH14 and we did really well as most thought go out the top 4.
Same with this year but we're still there. That's not an excuse as I personally want more but we're still there.
Potientially Chelsea and Liverpool could all (also) be in the same boat and be without Silverwear.

I think when Wengers contact is up he may not renew anyway

[Number 5]

Our interest in silverware actually ended earlier last season than this season.
But lets not let fact get in the way of a good story.

So what only your facts count?

Is it or is it not true had we beaten Man U at OT last year we would have had more points than them and won the title?

I know for a fact at the end of last season having come third in the PL, got to the QF's of the CL and knocked out in 4th(?) round FA Cup I was a damn sight more optimistic going into the summer than this season coming 4th PL and SF of CL and FA Cup than I will be this summer.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

So we are now comparing Spurs 2 carling Cup Final appearances with getting to the last 4 of the most prestigious and competitive competition in Europe are we ??.
I don't contradict myself at all actually, my point is that despite putting together a run that has been beyond every other club this season its still not enough. Only 1st is good enough, only winning the CL is good enough.
You cannot expect the club to meet those expectations given the situation they find themselves in. You chose to ignore the ground move, you chose to ignore the fact that we are the only club in the top for who do not run at a loss and a saddled with massive debt because you can't wait for a parade around Islington in an open top bus. We all want better for our clubs but it has to be measured against realism.

Ok I'll say it again, last season we were one win away from the Premier League title. That was achieved against the backdrop of all you say I am seeming to ignore. That is the realism I meaure my expectations against as it actually happened. It is a fact from last year. The squad from one year ago achieved all that I expected in a season. And that squad was dismantled and replaced by inferior players, not because of any of the restraints you suggest but because of Wenger. He let the players who left leave believing we had enough to replace and compete at a similar level. As has been proved this season he was unbelieveably wrong in this vision.

Don't worry about what I expect from the club because when we rock up in August I won't be expecting a challange for the PL or the CL. I will base my new expectations on the pathetic and abject performances the team put in this year, not the other constraints you mention.

Ladies & gentleman, the winner by undisputed knockout... Numberrr FIIIIIVE!

[Percy Dalton]

There are so many "supporters" on here who know frankly fuck all about the game and who think being a true fan means buying a shirt and defending Arsenal agaisnst any criticism.

Their arguements are weak and never backed with facts. Instead they spin phrases etc to suit and to try and show Arsenal in a better light.

If they are to be believed the league table has lied for several seasons now, we have a better sode than 2004 and the cabinet is bursting with trophies.

Cup runs beating the likes of Cardiff and Hull are viewed as a success and fourth is good enough in the league.

I cannot believe that people are making out semi final spots that lead to humbling defeats are seen as an acheivement. They are of course not but the spin to make them seem that way is quite extroadinary!

When you use Wenger's past successes to show how we have dropped from that yardstick you are told to stop living in the past but when you question Wenger you are reminded of all the things he has won. Double standard?

No wonder those who run our club are so cosy with our current position as so many of our "fans " are more than happy as long as the messiah is still at the helm.

Trophies mean nothing as we have Arsene and he knows!

[Skooner]

I’ve got so many thoughts on this but I will try and restrict to what I think are the most relevant:

No one thinks we have a divine right to win anything, what they do (or at least should) expect is a challenge, and for the players to strive for the best even if they don’t achieve it. Wenger consistently talks about desire and hunger from his players. It does not show on the pitch. When United beat us in the FA Cup semi final replay in 99, I could not have asked any more of the team. We lost, I was gutted but I could swallow the defeat as part of football. When we surrendered this season, I couldn’t stomach it. These players didn’t show any steel or fight for the battle. It looked to me like they simply didn’t care enough to match United for work rate. And that attitude comes from Wenger. If we went toe to toe and lost, you hold your hands and say fine, but we didn’t, we let them embarrass us. Wenger has bought technically gifted players but not mentally gifted ones.

The other main point is on the finances. Wenger needs to change his priorities. It is not his job to manage the clubs finances. He should go to the board every summer like every other manager and say “give me as much money as we can affordâ€

[Red Carpet]

So we are now comparing Spurs 2 carling Cup Final appearances with getting to the last 4 of the most prestigious and competitive competition in Europe are we ??.
I don't contradict myself at all actually, my point is that despite putting together a run that has been beyond every other club this season its still not enough. Only 1st is good enough, only winning the CL is good enough.
You cannot expect the club to meet those expectations given the situation they find themselves in. You chose to ignore the ground move, you chose to ignore the fact that we are the only club in the top for who do not run at a loss and a saddled with massive debt because you can't wait for a parade around Islington in an open top bus. We all want better for our clubs but it has to be measured against realism.

Ok I'll say it again, last season we were one win away from the Premier League title. That was achieved against the backdrop of all you say I am seeming to ignore. That is the realism I meaure my expectations against as it actually happened. It is a fact from last year. The squad from one year ago achieved all that I expected in a season. And that squad was dismantled and replaced by inferior players, not because of any of the restraints you suggest but because of Wenger. He let the players who left leave believing we had enough to replace and compete at a similar level. As has been proved this season he was unbelieveably wrong in this vision.

Don't worry about what I expect from the club because when we rock up in August I won't be expecting a challange for the PL or the CL. I will base my new expectations on the pathetic and abject performances the team put in this year, not the other constraints you mention.

Ladies & gentleman, the winner by undisputed knockout... Numberrr FIIIIIVE!

And since when did you become judge and jury !?!??

[StokeyGooner]

There are so many "suupportsers" on here who know frankly fuck all about the game and who think being a true fan means buying a shit and defending Arsenal agaisnst any criticism.

Their arguements are weak and never backed with facts. Instead they spin phrases etc to suit and to try and show Arsenal in a better light.

If they are to be believed the league table has lied for several seasons now, we have a better sode than 2004 and the cabinet is bursting with trophies.

Cup runs beating the likes of Cardiff and Hull are viewed as a success and fourth is good enough in the league.

I cannot believe that people are making out semi final spots that lead to humbling defeats are seen as an acheivement. They are of course not but the spin to make them seem that way is quite extroadinary!

When you use Wenger's past successes to show how we have dropped from that yardstick you are told to stop living in the past but when you question Wenger you are reminded of all the things he has won. Double standard?

No wonder those who run our club are so cosy with our current position as so many of our "fans " are more than happy as long as the messiah is still at the helm.

Trophies mean nothing as we have Arsene and he knows!

Alright come on own up. Which one of you suupportsers have been buying a shit? Cos he's right, you obviously know fuck all.

[Percy Dalton]

Fucking typo's

[Red Carpet]

[quote="Skooner"]I’ve got so many thoughts on this but I will try and restrict to what I think are the most relevant:

No one thinks we have a divine right to win anything, what they do (or at least should) expect is a challenge, and for the players to strive for the best even if they don’t achieve it. Wenger consistently talks about desire and hunger from his players. It does not show on the pitch. When United beat us in the FA Cup semi final replay in 99, I could not have asked any more of the team. We lost, I was gutted but I could swallow the defeat as part of football. When we surrendered this season, I couldn’t stomach it. These players didn’t show any steel or fight for the battle. It looked to me like they simply didn’t care enough to match United for work rate. And that attitude comes from Wenger. If we went toe to toe and lost, you hold your hands and say fine, but we didn’t, we let them embarrass us. Wenger has bought technically gifted players but not mentally gifted ones.

The other main point is on the finances. Wenger needs to change his priorities. It is not his job to manage the clubs finances. He should go to the board every summer like every other manager and say “give me as much money as we can affordâ€

[Number 5]

Ladies & gentleman, the winner by undisputed knockout... Numberrr FIIIIIVE!

And since when did you become judge and jury !?!??

If I were you mate I'd worry more about me, the executioner.

Seriously, it's been an extremely good debate Red Carpet, you fight your corner well, unlike Naz above.

[Red Carpet]

Ladies & gentleman, the winner by undisputed knockout... Numberrr FIIIIIVE!

And since when did you become judge and jury !?!??

If I were you mate I'd worry more about me, the executioner.

Seriously, it's been an extremely good debate Red Carpet, you fight your corner well, unlike Naz above.

Cheers mate ... its been fun. Beats discussing how many posts we've had !.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Ladies & gentleman, the winner by undisputed knockout... Numberrr FIIIIIVE!

And since when did you become judge and jury !?!??

Relax mate, no-one needs to be judge & jury to offer an opinion. Twas just my roundabout way of saying No.5 had hit the nail on the head, in my opinion.

For what it’s worth I don’t disagree with all of your points, I’ve argued a fair few of them myself in the past & still maintain that where the last 4 or 5 season are concerned up to & including last season I think Wenger’s done a better job than many on here give him credit for.

It’s in the last year or so where most of the major mistakes have had little or nothing to do with limited finances that I’ve started to grow seriously concerned. Especially as those errors in judgement have become increasingly frequent & ever more bizarre.