LIVERPOOL AWAY

[Bendtners Drinking Buddy]

keep your hair on DB10!

The fact is less and less people are now on Songs back, because they can see he is clearly a good player. Arshavin, Cesc, Vermaelen, Sagna were all poor against Chelsea - are they poor players? Song has been arguably our best player this season, and fully deserves his place in the side - he is key to this Arsenal team, and brings more to the side on a consistent basis than Fabregas is at present. The fact is many people think Denilson was fine yesterday, and that Song was brilliant - you just cant accept the fact that people that do not agree with you are not "silly" - their opinon differs, and i stand by my comment, i cant see how anyone can say Denilson or Song were "poor" yesterday, or that they are "poor" players.

[MK Gould]

Having been at the game I've only just around to reading the thread. Brilliant stuff. Better even than watching the text commentary on the BBC site.... The utter despair of the 1st half....the uphoria in the 2nd....the tension in injury time. Well done guys.

Given that our last away trip resulted in eldest son being hit with a bottle and greedy *word censored* scoring in a 2-4 defeat, then I think they deserved this treat. And I've been up there many times (the first being the league cup semi final 1st leg in the late 1970's when we took circa 9,000) and never even seen us come away with as much as a draw, so to nick a win was brill.

Non-football highlight for me was the singing. "Thursday night, channel 5....", "Feed a scouser, let them know it's christmas time" and the Arshavin song that involves a bit of jumping up and down and is even better than "5 foot 4....". Oh, and the guy next to us getting kicked out for saying "Tranvestite *word censored*" just once too often

And getting a £2 discount for seats that were optimistically called "severly resitricted view". The only view from that back row was of the back of someones head and the underside of the seats above us ! Thank god we found a nice little spot to stand in nearer the front !!

For me, the only players who had a really poor game yesterday were Walcott (just needs a few games under his belt), Almunia (who flaps more than a bee) and Traore.....

[DB10GOONER]

you call them as I see them? So do I, incidentally.

I thought Denilson was our best central midfielder yesterday. and I don't know why everyone thinks that this is rose-tinting. On the whole our central midfield was poor, Cesc was infective and Song, in my opinion, had his worst game all season. He gave the ball away, his positioning was suspect at times and he hardly won any balls.

Denilson on the other hand did. His passing was good for the most part, he made plenty of interceptions and he won tackles. Actual stats back me up. Yep, stats. The things that are so useless. According to those Denilson made 7 interceptions compared to Song's 4, won 9 tackles and lost 2 compared to Song winning 1 and losing 2 and completed 49 of his 55 passes compared to Song completing 38 out of 49.

He kept the ball moving and he won the ball back. His foul on Mascherano for the free kick wasn't a foul imo.

I don't think Denilson was outstanding yesterday by any means, none of our players were. But he was decent and he put in a lot of work that allowed us to come back into the game. If you don't appreciate that work I can't help you. But don't declare others that do as stupid and don't for one second think that your opinion is worth more than that of others.

In the end it all comes down to one thing when calling them as you see them - my superior eyesight

I take it your reply was directed at me. Get your facts right before you get your knickers so twisted. Whom did I call "stupid"? And where did I say my "opinion was worth more than others" - even though you infer the same thing by your post!

And don't ever tell me what I can "dare" do, mate. You don't know me well enough for that.

I've told you before stats are useless to qualify football - they can only quantify it. This shows your apparent complete lack of understanding of the game in the real world.

ONE LAST TIME;

A player has a pass completion rate of 100%. But 99% of them are short lateral passes that achieve little or nothing. Does that somehow "prove" he is a great player? Does it fuck. Look up Roy Keane's stats. You'd swear he was the greatest midfield passer in the history of the game. He wasn't. He was a class DM that won the ball back and then kept it simple, mostly passing over 5 to 10 yards maximum. He very seldomly tried to split a defence with a great pass.

What were AA23's stats for yesterday? Who cares - he buried the ball in their net. That's what counts about him yesterday!

Stats cannot qualify performance. For example; interceptions. They count bad passes too, not just when a player has read the play and moved to intercept but when the oppo pass a shit ball straight to him.

I will now say that your reliance on stats is (if not stupid) then very silly. SO KINDLY STICK YOUR STATS UP YOUR ARSE. Rant over.

Have to run for train - will deal with you later, BDB....

[marcengels]

you should write a blog, or a fanzine, or something like that, hadareud. your posts are always the most intelligent ones, in my opinion, even though they are usually simple and right to the point.

but the fact that i just said i find your posts to be always brilliant probably just diminished the level of your status in here

write more often, mate!

..wonder why that is Branilson

[brazilianGOONER]

Stats cannot qualify performance. For example; interceptions. They count bad passes too, not just when a player has read the play and moved to intercept but when the oppo pass a shit ball straight to him.

db10, the funny thing is that denilson is the luckiest football player alive. he is always the number 1 interceptor in our team. last season he was number 1 interceptor in the LEAGUE.

maybe he's too ugly, people get scared of him and make wrong passes, directly TO HIM.

or maybe the ball is made out of steel, and he has magnets in his boots.

anyway, you HAVE to admit sometime, denilson is a brilliant interceptor of the ball. no, he is not capable of fabregas-esque brilliant passes that cut the defence in halves, but he is a decent (and very quick) passer of the ball and capable of great interceptions

[brazilianGOONER]

you should write a blog, or a fanzine, or something like that, hadareud. your posts are always the most intelligent ones, in my opinion, even though they are usually simple and right to the point.

but the fact that i just said i find your posts to be always brilliant probably just diminished the level of your status in here

write more often, mate!

..wonder why that is Branilson

i'm sure i'm not the only one who enjoys hadareud's posts.

and i'm not talking about swale and bdb as well

[I Hate Hleb]

IHH I think you need to PM BDB and get the name of his dealer, cos his shit is obviously far stronger than yours.

I'm too afraid to Chippy. The stuff BDB is on obviously fucks with your mind and makes you hallucinate!!

[I Hate Hleb]

As for hadareud, he's obviously a child of parents that actually were there in the 60's and is now paying the price!!!

[N1AFC]

Look up Roy Keane's stats.

Wow I just looked and it would seem he won *word censored* of the season every single year of his career....GO ROY (you horrible little *word censored*)!

I don't like him regardless of what he done!

[mike]

I must say that although my personal opinion is that Diaby & Denilson aren’t yet good enough for the arsenal and are highly frustrating, there are some on here that wouldn’t have a good word said about them regardless of how good a game they had!! I thought Denilson had a pretty solid game yesterday, not great, but good. Didn’t set the world alight but done his job & played his part in us coming away with all 3 points. The criticism him & Diaby face is almost identical to that what was being labelled at Song 12 months ago & now he’s an accepted permanent fixture in our starting 11….So who’s to say that these two wouldn’t have come on leaps & bounds by say next Christmas? Truth is, we just don’t know.

Yesterday, I actually thought Cesc & Nasri were for the most part, anonymous along with the usually poor Walcott & Almunia. Tommy V was fucking Immense!

Anyway, roll on 3 points on Wednesday to make it very big back to back away wins! Will be just as tough (if not tougher) than yesterday & I’m slightly concerned that the likes of Arshavin won’t fancy it as much at a cold Turf Moor! Really hope I’m wrong! Come on you Gunners…Dig in & fight!

[Magic Hat]

Felt Traore, like most of the defence, got sucked forward a little too much at times in first half but thought he defended well and he was more disciplined in the second, Liverpool couldn't get the better of him.

I felt Denilson was dreadful in the first half, it was a contest between him, Cesc and Almunia for worst Arsenal player on the pitch. Second half he improved and put in a decent defensive shift, helping prevent Liverpool from getting a shot on target. Would give him a 6 without stats, give him a 6.5 once taking in the stats

[SteveO 35]

Felt Traore, like most of the defence, got sucked forward a little too much at times in first half but thought he defended well and he was more disciplined in the second, Liverpool couldn't get the better of him.

I felt Denilson was dreadful in the first half, it was a contest between him, Cesc and Almunia for worst Arsenal player on the pitch. Second half he improved and put in a decent defensive shift, helping prevent Liverpool from getting a shot on target. Would give him a 6 without stats, give him a 6.5 once taking in the stats

I presume that verdict was given on the basis that we all forgot that Walcott was out there start with

In all seriousness - we did OK, but were aided by one own goal and an absolute cracker from AA23. The first half was so embarrassing it was untrue - I couldn't believe that we gave so much confidence to a team that was clearly light on it before the game began (and which was exposed in the 2nd half as soon as Johnson scored the own goal).

A lot of people have been raving about the performance but I honestly thought we played much better at Old Trafford and for large spells at Eastlands too. Even after we went 2-1 I thought we got sucked into defending deeper and deeper and benefitted from playing against a team who really lacked the sort of presence that normally disturbs us - Torres clearly isn't fit and the Mickeys are so desperate for short term success they are going to fuck the boy up in the injury department.

[DB10GOONER]

Stats cannot qualify performance. For example; interceptions. They count bad passes too, not just when a player has read the play and moved to intercept but when the oppo pass a shit ball straight to him.

db10, the funny thing is that denilson is the luckiest football player alive. he is always the number 1 interceptor in our team. last season he was number 1 interceptor in the LEAGUE.

maybe he's too ugly, people get scared of him and make wrong passes, directly TO HIM.

or maybe the ball is made out of steel, and he has magnets in his boots.

anyway, you HAVE to admit sometime, denilson is a brilliant interceptor of the ball. no, he is not capable of fabregas-esque brilliant passes that cut the defence in halves, but he is a decent (and very quick) passer of the ball and capable of great interceptions

Unlike MANY (most?) of the rosetinters on here I have no problem admitting when a player has had a good or great game. Absolutely no problem at all.

I've seen Denilson make some great interceptions and a great tackle or two, but unfortunately they are far outweighed by the amount of times I've seen him pass a ball 5 yards behind his intended target whilst under no pressure, or lose possession cheaply, or totally mis-time a tackle, or get caught out of position. You see, I can see the good and the bad - unlike alot of rosetinters who seem to watch a match, see a player make a couple of interceptions and then forget the mistakes.

I don't mean to be insulting here, but I think alot of the rosetinters are a bit like kids in the playground at school; they have to "defend" their team no matter what, maybe it feels like a personal attack on them when someone criticises their team, I dunno...

Personally I have no problem being pragmatic about football - I've been supporting The Arse long enough and playing the game long enough to have seen most things.

Someone brought up a point about Song earlier in this thread, about how he was getting the same criticism last year as Denilson and Diaby are now. Yes he was - because he was that poor at the time.

I've just never understood this childish thing of saying a player is great just because he wears the jersey. Sure, support him and cheer him on but let's not kid ourselves about a poor player!

At present Denilson is poor, Diaby is poor and Eboue is poor. Fans of other teams can see it too. They comment on the qualities of (for example) AA23, Cesc, RVP, Tommy V - admitting they are good players for the most part but then they comment on the like of Diaby, Denilson & Eboue and it's always "How do they get in the Arsenal team?"

Now I know the opinion of oppo fans dosn't prove anything but most people will give a grudging respect to a good player. I hate John Terry but there is no denying he is a quality centre half.

To finish - I'd love it if Denilson succeeded at Arsenal, it would mean we have another good player, and my priority is always the team and the club, NEVER the individual player. He seems like a good bloke - an honest decent type; he never moans at refs or dives about like Gerard. I respect him totally. But IMHO he is not good enough as a footballer to be in a team that wants to win the PL and/or the CL. Ditto Diaby.

Eboue is still just a diving, whining, cheating arsehole. He brings shame on the jersey. Nothing to do with his ability or lack thereof - he is just a disgrace and an embarrassment.

[Magic Hat]

It amazes me how the realists a) get the better name and b) seem unwilling to admit the rose tinters can criticize a player so anyone they like is blind defence. It's a bit like claiming the "realists" will never ever ever praise certain players even if they get a hatrick, save a penalty and discovered a way to end world hunger. Sure, it feels like that sometimes but it isn't true.

I do think pre conceived notions can affect judgement. We have seen fan favs lose form utterly but get away with it and it took Clichy about two years of bad performances before most admitted there was a problem. A less popular player can find he plays well and makes one mistake so is condemned as useless.

I think the second dm role we have is a bit of a curse. Remember how many thought Gilberto was useless when he first came to the club? I'm not saying either are close to Gilberto but talking about type of player here. PV4's contributions were obvious, he was powerful he got stuck in, he roved forward. Gilberto's were not so obvious, sitting in front of the defence, intercepting and keeping the ball so it would took awhile for fans to realise it. Song is the more defensive PV4 like player, Cesc is the creator which is generally going to catch the eye. The guy alongside, usually Denilson or Diaby, ends up with the job of supporting Song by being more mobile, intercepting and harassing, pushing upfield more but generally playing the safe pass to the more skilful players in space. A needed job perhaps but not one that catches the eye

It is amazing how Denilson manages to have one of our best interception, tackling and passing ratio's yet is condemned as being sloppy in possession and not a good tackler. Clearly playing ball to team mate is a sloppy pass and by tackling, there is a new definition Sure, stats can be made to say a lot but not sure how "wins a lot of tackles" can be manipulated into anything other then wins a lot of tackles. Taking issue with his positioning is fair enough if that is something you see needs work on, though I have felt Song (not against Liverpool but in other games) has been given an easy ride for some of his positioning of late.

There are issues with Denilson but he doesn't always get his due here in my opinion

[DB10GOONER]

It amazes me how the realists a) get the better name and b) seem unwilling to admit the rose tinters can criticize a player so anyone they like is blind defence. It's a bit like claiming the "realists" will never ever ever praise certain players even if they get a hatrick, save a penalty and discovered a way to end world hunger. Sure, it feels like that sometimes but it isn't true.

I do think pre conceived notions can affect judgement. We have seen fan favs lose form utterly but get away with it and it took Clichy about two years of bad performances before most admitted there was a problem. A less popular player can find he plays well and makes one mistake so is condemned as useless.

I think the second dm role we have is a bit of a curse. Remember how many thought Gilberto was useless when he first came to the club? I'm not saying either are close to Gilberto but talking about type of player here. PV4's contributions were obvious, he was powerful he got stuck in, he roved forward. Gilberto's were not so obvious, sitting in front of the defence, intercepting and keeping the ball so it would took awhile for fans to realise it. Song is the more defensive PV4 like player, Cesc is the creator which is generally going to catch the eye. The guy alongside, usually Denilson or Diaby, ends up with the job of supporting Song by being more mobile, intercepting and harassing, pushing upfield more but generally playing the safe pass to the more skilful players in space. A needed job perhaps but not one that catches the eye

It is amazing how Denilson manages to have one of our best interception, tackling and passing ratio's yet is condemned as being sloppy in possession and not a good tackler. Clearly playing ball to team mate is a sloppy pass and by tackling, there is a new definition Sure, stats can be made to say a lot but not sure how "wins a lot of tackles" can be manipulated into anything other then wins a lot of tackles. Taking issue with his positioning is fair enough if that is something you see needs work on, though I have felt Song (not against Liverpool but in other games) has been given an easy ride for some of his positioning of late.

There are issues with Denilson but he doesn't always get his due here in my opinion

Fair points.

Gilberto was a very erratic passer of the ball, but as you say his game was the support role, tracking and harrassing and he was excellent at that. I feel Denilson is not mobile enough, he often struggles to get up and down box to box.

As for tackling stats. Again, they only quantify it, not qualify it. They include things like when an oppo player over runs the ball and bumps into the "tackler" - a mistake by the oppo but the "tackler" gets a tackle stat out of it by doing nothing (yes, a very simple example but true).

Also where are the stats with regard to bad or missed tackles? If a player in the centre of the pitch is seeing a lot of the ball (standard in that area) and he makes 5 tackles but messes up 10 attempted tackles all you read is he made 5 tackles - he must be great, right? No mention of the 10 missed tackles and maybe 4 of those led to a goal? Now we have a player that isn't so hot huh? These simplified examples demonstrate that quantative stats cannot qualify football as there is no variable or constant qualifiers.

Another simplified example; I'd imagine Eboue's running with the ball or yardage stats are impressive. Yet there is never an end product from those runs. He either runs out of pitch (ala Tony Daly) or he loses possession cheaply or fires it a mile wide. Yet another player may only get a few touches of the ball. But he scores with one and sets up a goal with the other. His yardage stats, passing stats, tackling stats may all be poor but he did more with those couple of touches than Eboue did with all his running and "dribbling".

Football is a qualitative thing in all but scoreline. That is the only relevent quantative stat I'll accept.