As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Magic Hat wrote:It amazes me how the realists a) get the better name and b) seem unwilling to admit the rose tinters can criticize a player so anyone they like is blind defence. It's a bit like claiming the "realists" will never ever ever praise certain players even if they get a hatrick, save a penalty and discovered a way to end world hunger. Sure, it feels like that sometimes but it isn't true.
I do think pre conceived notions can affect judgement. We have seen fan favs lose form utterly but get away with it and it took Clichy about two years of bad performances before most admitted there was a problem. A less popular player can find he plays well and makes one mistake so is condemned as useless.
I think the second dm role we have is a bit of a curse. Remember how many thought Gilberto was useless when he first came to the club? I'm not saying either are close to Gilberto but talking about type of player here. PV4's contributions were obvious, he was powerful he got stuck in, he roved forward. Gilberto's were not so obvious, sitting in front of the defence, intercepting and keeping the ball so it would took awhile for fans to realise it. Song is the more defensive PV4 like player, Cesc is the creator which is generally going to catch the eye. The guy alongside, usually Denilson or Diaby, ends up with the job of supporting Song by being more mobile, intercepting and harassing, pushing upfield more but generally playing the safe pass to the more skilful players in space. A needed job perhaps but not one that catches the eye
It is amazing how Denilson manages to have one of our best interception, tackling and passing ratio's yet is condemned as being sloppy in possession and not a good tackler. Clearly playing ball to team mate is a sloppy pass and by tackling, there is a new definition Sure, stats can be made to say a lot but not sure how "wins a lot of tackles" can be manipulated into anything other then wins a lot of tackles. Taking issue with his positioning is fair enough if that is something you see needs work on, though I have felt Song (not against Liverpool but in other games) has been given an easy ride for some of his positioning of late.
There are issues with Denilson but he doesn't always get his due here in my opinion
Fair points.
Gilberto was a very erratic passer of the ball, but as you say his game was the support role, tracking and harrassing and he was excellent at that. I feel Denilson is not mobile enough, he often struggles to get up and down box to box.
As for tackling stats. Again, they only quantify it, not qualify it. They include things like when an oppo player over runs the ball and bumps into the "tackler" - a mistake by the oppo but the "tackler" gets a tackle stat out of it by doing nothing (yes, a very simple example but true).
Also where are the stats with regard to bad or missed tackles? If a player in the centre of the pitch is seeing a lot of the ball (standard in that area) and he makes 5 tackles but messes up 10 attempted tackles all you read is he made 5 tackles - he must be great, right? No mention of the 10 missed tackles and maybe 4 of those led to a goal? Now we have a player that isn't so hot huh? These simplified examples demonstrate that quantative stats cannot qualify football as there is no variable or constant qualifiers.
Another simplified example; I'd imagine Eboue's running with the ball or yardage stats are impressive. Yet there is never an end product from those runs. He either runs out of pitch (ala Tony Daly) or he loses possession cheaply or fires it a mile wide. Yet another player may only get a few touches of the ball. But he scores with one and sets up a goal with the other. His yardage stats, passing stats, tackling stats may all be poor but he did more with those couple of touches than Eboue did with all his running and "dribbling".
Football is a qualitative thing in all but scoreline. That is the only relevent quantative stat I'll accept.
Could sum it up there.
Nice argument MH, but as DB10 says, there are things which impact the stats which cannot be quantified. For example, how do you measure quntatively"intelligent" runs, making space, or the pyschological impact of a player? As much as taking a "tackling" stats tells you nothing about anything going on around that tackle.
Magic Hat wrote:It amazes me how the realists a) get the better name and b) seem unwilling to admit the rose tinters can criticize a player so anyone they like is blind defence. It's a bit like claiming the "realists" will never ever ever praise certain players even if they get a hatrick, save a penalty and discovered a way to end world hunger. Sure, it feels like that sometimes but it isn't true.
I do think pre conceived notions can affect judgement. We have seen fan favs lose form utterly but get away with it and it took Clichy about two years of bad performances before most admitted there was a problem. A less popular player can find he plays well and makes one mistake so is condemned as useless.
I think the second dm role we have is a bit of a curse. Remember how many thought Gilberto was useless when he first came to the club? I'm not saying either are close to Gilberto but talking about type of player here. PV4's contributions were obvious, he was powerful he got stuck in, he roved forward. Gilberto's were not so obvious, sitting in front of the defence, intercepting and keeping the ball so it would took awhile for fans to realise it. Song is the more defensive PV4 like player, Cesc is the creator which is generally going to catch the eye. The guy alongside, usually Denilson or Diaby, ends up with the job of supporting Song by being more mobile, intercepting and harassing, pushing upfield more but generally playing the safe pass to the more skilful players in space. A needed job perhaps but not one that catches the eye
It is amazing how Denilson manages to have one of our best interception, tackling and passing ratio's yet is condemned as being sloppy in possession and not a good tackler. Clearly playing ball to team mate is a sloppy pass and by tackling, there is a new definition Sure, stats can be made to say a lot but not sure how "wins a lot of tackles" can be manipulated into anything other then wins a lot of tackles. Taking issue with his positioning is fair enough if that is something you see needs work on, though I have felt Song (not against Liverpool but in other games) has been given an easy ride for some of his positioning of late.
There are issues with Denilson but he doesn't always get his due here in my opinion
Fair points.
Gilberto was a very erratic passer of the ball, but as you say his game was the support role, tracking and harrassing and he was excellent at that. I feel Denilson is not mobile enough, he often struggles to get up and down box to box.
As for tackling stats. Again, they only quantify it, not qualify it. They include things like when an oppo player over runs the ball and bumps into the "tackler" - a mistake by the oppo but the "tackler" gets a tackle stat out of it by doing nothing (yes, a very simple example but true).
Also where are the stats with regard to bad or missed tackles? If a player in the centre of the pitch is seeing a lot of the ball (standard in that area) and he makes 5 tackles but messes up 10 attempted tackles all you read is he made 5 tackles - he must be great, right? No mention of the 10 missed tackles and maybe 4 of those led to a goal? Now we have a player that isn't so hot huh? These simplified examples demonstrate that quantative stats cannot qualify football as there is no variable or constant qualifiers.
Another simplified example; I'd imagine Eboue's running with the ball or yardage stats are impressive. Yet there is never an end product from those runs. He either runs out of pitch (ala Tony Daly) or he loses possession cheaply or fires it a mile wide. Yet another player may only get a few touches of the ball. But he scores with one and sets up a goal with the other. His yardage stats, passing stats, tackling stats may all be poor but he did more with those couple of touches than Eboue did with all his running and "dribbling".
Football is a qualitative thing in all but scoreline. That is the only relevent quantative stat I'll accept.
Could sum it up there.
Nice argument MH, but as DB10 says, there are things which impact the stats which cannot be quantified. For example, how do you measure quntatively"intelligent" runs, making space, or the pyschological impact of a player? As much as taking a "tackling" stats tells you nothing about anything going on around that tackle.
I can see the mobility thing as well, sometimes I wish he would just sit back in the big games, not cross the half way line when we attack. In "easy"games, he isn't the type of player I would have but so far, turning it into a 1 dm and 2 attacking mid-fielders hasn't worked
I think hardred mentioned the percentage of tackles which would include the missed tackles? In fairness to Denilson, Gallas meant some horrendous tackles near and in our own box and yet I thought the French cb was superb yesterday
I also agree with the Eboue example. Eboue is brilliant at those counter attacking runs that see him burst through the midfield and put a defence under pressure but it means nothing if he can't pass or shoot which wastes the entire point of him doing that. The difference between him and Denilson is that intercepting and tackling is an important part of the game, he has those basics for the dm role. Will he make it? Don't know, I think he has had a pretty good season but that there is a lot he needs to work on.
Sure, stats can be made to say a lot but not sure how "wins a lot of tackles" can be manipulated into anything other then wins a lot of tackles. Taking issue with his positioning is fair enough if that is something you see needs work on, though I have felt Song (not against Liverpool but in other games) has been given an easy ride for some of his positioning of late.
