Play off for 4th

donaldo · Post by **donaldo** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Its nearly as stupid an idea as giving a CL spot to the FA cup winners

safcftm · Post by **safcftm** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:56 pm

donaldo wrote:Its nearly as stupid an idea as giving a CL spot to the FA cup winners

quality idea that is- generally its one of the "big 4" that win it anyway so would hardly ever be any different to the teams put forward into the CL now, but would make all teams have a dream of getting into the CL and would make all teams respect the competition.

Im fucking sick of football nowadays- look at villa last season, in with a good chance of winning the UEFA Cup they field a weakened side because they want to concentrate on the race to finish 4th. Fucking 4th? Teams are happy to accept going out of something they could actually win just so they can finish fucking 4th? I always liked it when football was about trying to actually win something, not celebrating because you can (not in villas case since they still didnt manage it) finish in a position that even the fucking olympics dont give you a medal for. If i could see sunderland either finish 4th or win the FA Cup (neither being very fucking likely of course), it'd be FA Cup every time for me because i would rather see my side actually win something than see them simply get a big cash windfall that will go into the directors or the overpaid, heartless mercenary footballers pockets or be wasted on shit like tore andre flo for 8 fucking million- give me a cup triumph any day

The FA Cup winners are at least champions of something, imo if you can win that you are more deserving of a place in the CL than a side like liverpool that has thrown fuck loads of money at its squad and still finishes fourth.

The FA Cup would be great if teams all fielded full strength sides and all desperately wanted to win and this would help ensure it happens. Like I said, it would almost always be won by one of the teams in the top 3, at which point the 4th placed side in the league would get the place, or the 4th place side would win it and so get in anyway. But it would provide a great lift to our cup competition and would mean that all clubs would at least have a shot at getting CL football

marcengels · Post by **marcengels** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:44 pm

safcftm wrote:
donaldo wrote:Its nearly as stupid an idea as giving a CL spot to the FA cup winners
quality idea that is- generally its one of the "big 4" that win it anyway so would hardly ever be any different to the teams put forward into the CL now, but would make all teams have a dream of getting into the CL and would make all teams respect the competition.

Im fucking sick of football nowadays- look at villa last season, in with a good chance of winning the UEFA Cup they field a weakened side because they want to concentrate on the race to finish 4th. Fucking 4th? Teams are happy to accept going out of something they could actually win just so they can finish fucking 4th? I always liked it when football was about trying to actually win something, not celebrating because you can (not in villas case since they still didnt manage it) finish in a position that even the fucking olympics dont give you a medal for. If i could see sunderland either finish 4th or win the FA Cup (neither being very fucking likely of course), it'd be FA Cup every time for me because i would rather see my side actually win something than see them simply get a big cash windfall that will go into the directors or the overpaid, heartless mercenary footballers pockets or be wasted on shit like tore andre flo for 8 fucking million- give me a cup triumph any day

The FA Cup winners are at least champions of something, imo if you can win that you are more deserving of a place in the CL than a side like liverpool that has thrown fuck loads of money at its squad and still finishes fourth.

The FA Cup would be great if teams all fielded full strength sides and all desperately wanted to win and this would help ensure it happens. Like I said, it would almost always be won by one of the teams in the top 3, at which point the 4th placed side in the league would get the place, or the 4th place side would win it and so get in anyway. But it would provide a great lift to our cup competition and would mean that all clubs would at least have a shot at getting CL football

Agree and disagree

Agree that more repsect should be given to winning something. But the FA cup is random, and at the end should be worthy of being worth won on its own rather than a CL place at the end.

You should have to earn your top table european spot through good management. Too much shit is thrown around lumping the "big 4" in together. Look at the amount on money the likes of Villa and spurs have pissed away over the years. We have built ourselves up (unlike Chelsea) and deserve to be up there because we had sensible consistent management. It's up to the other clubs to look at their own clubs and stop moaning.

You can win the FA cup through a very lucky, mostly home (chelsea) drawa so is worth of what is used to provide, the cup winner cup. The UEFA was stronger due to the quality of 2nd place down teams, and the European Cup the pinnacle.

safcftm · Post by **safcftm** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:52 pm

marcengels wrote: Agree and disagree

Agree that more repsect should be given to winning something. But the FA cup is random, and at the end should be worthy of being worth won on its own rather than a CL place at the end.

You should have to earn your top table european spot through good management. Too much shit is thrown around lumping the "big 4" in together. Look at the amount on money the likes of Villa and spurs have pissed away over the years. We have built ourselves up (unlike Chelsea) and deserve to be up there because we had sensible consistent management. It's up to the other clubs to look at their own clubs and stop moaning.

You can win the FA cup through a very lucky, mostly home (chelsea) drawa so is worth of what is used to provide, the cup winner cup. The UEFA was stronger due to the quality of 2nd place down teams, and the European Cup the pinnacle.

I fully agree with your point re. the arsenal, it is sensible management that has kept them up in the top 4 and they certainly dont throw money around like the other 3, and like other clubs ie spurs and villa (i think even SAFC have a higher net spend since winning promotion than the arsenal) and, as a result, arsenal do deserve to be in the CL

My concern, and why i want to see FA Cup winners get in, is that imo before long arsenals good management wont be enough to get the top 4. Man City will spend enough to force their way in, Chelsea do the same, then other clubs will be bought by rich billionaires, and all the sensible management in the world wont stop only the wealthiest clubs from getting the top 4 places. I can see the CL spots becoming nothing more than a cock measuring contest for some rich americans/ arabs/ russians etc, and that doesnt interest me at all. I would rather see some way of making it a bit more "random" regarding who qualifies in one of the places, otherwise 4 wealthy bastards will just end up monololising the places

Time will tell, and hopefully before long rules will be introduced to counter the threat of all the money and success simply going to the club with the richest billionaire (something like making sure that wages are less than a certain percentage of turnover, or limiting how much debt clubs are allowed to go into whilst still being allowed to compete in the top league) but i am worried that this wont be the case, and the PL will just happily see the same rich clubs qualify year in year out whilst those that are ran properly that dont have billionaire owners end up with no chance.

NBM · Post by **NBM** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:08 pm

Agreed with the re-valuing FA cup point, however imagine if it had been a CL place on offer to the winner when we beat Southampton, they would have played in a CL qualifier. Great for them, but they would have been well out of their depth. It's just pissing a CL spot up the wall and lowering the league's co-efficient at the same time.

Red107 · Post by **Red107** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:14 pm

NBM wrote:Agreed with the re-valuing FA cup point, however imagine if it had been a CL place on offer to the winner when we beat Southampton, they would have played in a CL qualifier. Great for them, but they would have been well out of their depth. It's just pissing a CL spot up the wall and lowering the league's co-efficient at the same time.

Damn straight.

safcftm · Post by **safcftm** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:15 pm

NBM wrote:Agreed with the re-valuing FA cup point, however imagine if it had been a CL place on offer to the winner when we beat Southampton, they would have played in a CL qualifier. Great for them, but they would have been well out of their depth. It's just pissing a CL spot up the wall and lowering the league's co-efficient at the same time.

for this very reason, i would say that the FA Cup winner gets a CL place but that if the FA Cup is won by one of the top 3 teams (ie someone who has already qualified for the CL), the 4th CL place goes to the team that finished 4th in the league, rather than the FA Cup runners up (this already happens in the league cup- the winners get a uefa cup place, but if a CL side or team that qualifies for the UEFA cup through their league position wins the tournament, the place goes to the next side in the league, rather than going to the league cup runners up, so theres no reason why this couldnt happen in the FA Cup)

This is why i think generally it wouldnt affect the 4 entrants- how often in the last 15 years has the FA Cup been won by a side that finished outside the top 4? Very, very rarely- so it could re-invigorate the competition without suddenly leading to us entering shite sides into the CL and having our coefficient affected.

Post by **flash gunner** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:24 pm

Ive got mixed feeleings about the FA cup winners getting a European cup place the cup has lost its glory and id love to see it taken seriously again like it was during the 70's and 80's but the thought of sp*rs getting in the champions league after a run of easy home draws against 2 division teams fills me with dread

marcengels · Post by **marcengels** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:34 pm

safcftm wrote:
I fully agree with your point re. the arsenal, it is sensible management that has kept them up in the top 4 and they certainly dont throw money around like the other 3, and like other clubs ie spurs and villa (i think even SAFC have a higher net spend since winning promotion than the arsenal) and, as a result, arsenal do deserve to be in the CL

My concern, and why i want to see FA Cup winners get in, is that imo before long arsenals good management wont be enough to get the top 4. Man City will spend enough to force their way in, Chelsea do the same, then other clubs will be bought by rich billionaires, and all the sensible management in the world wont stop only the wealthiest clubs from getting the top 4 places. I can see the CL spots becoming nothing more than a cock measuring contest for some rich americans/ arabs/ russians etc, and that doesnt interest me at all. I would rather see some way of making it a bit more "random" regarding who qualifies in one of the places, otherwise 4 wealthy bastards will just end up monololising the places

Time will tell, and hopefully before long rules will be introduced to counter the threat of all the money and success simply going to the club with the richest billionaire (something like making sure that wages are less than a certain percentage of turnover, or limiting how much debt clubs are allowed to go into whilst still being allowed to compete in the top league) but i am worried that this wont be the case, and the PL will just happily see the same rich clubs qualify year in year out whilst those that are ran properly that dont have billionaire owners end up with no chance.

I see your rationale behind that safc, but I think the boat has sailed the financial side of football. What I do not like presently is clubs that I have mentioned whose ownership and fans moan about a closed shop, when over the years they have had similar opportunities to the ones we have had and not taken them. The commentators who say that they would like to see spurs or villa break into the top four, are the same who say that clubs should be run sensibly and consistently - exactly the thing these clubs have not been!

The concentration of European football power now within big cities in big European markets is testament to the way that these clubs want football to be. A European super League? I wouldn't want it but wouldn't bet against it.

SteveO 35 · Post by **SteveO 35** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:50 pm

It will give the board and Goon In Charge a great excuse to lower the bar even more and aim for 7th every year

Post by **SPUDMASHER** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:54 pm

SteveO 35 wrote:It will give the board and Goon In Charge a great excuse to lower the bar even more and aim for 7th every year

ain't that the fucking truth

SteveO 35 · Post by **SteveO 35** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:57 pm

SPUDMASHER wrote:
SteveO 35 wrote:It will give the board and Goon In Charge a great excuse to lower the bar even more and aim for 7th every year
ain't that the fucking truth

Reality I'm afraid Spud - when it was top 2 we were the most regular 2nd place finishers, then extended to 4th place which we've made our own.....just natural regression I'm afraid

As much as Wenger is horrified at the idea now I look forward to his counter arguments when it happens to us i.e. that we finish in the places between 5th and 7th

Post by **I Hate Hleb** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 pm

Play-off for 4th Champions League place? That's got to be the worst idea since Sami's parents decided to try the rhythm method as their contraception of choice!!!

And look how badly that turned out!!

Post by **flash gunner** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:27 pm

At least we will stand a chance of making the final of this. Nice day out for all of us

NBM · Post by **NBM** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:00 pm

Good Mirror article on the playoff idea:

Why Wenger's idea of a relegation play-off is no crazier than the Champions League proposal

By John Cross

Here's a plan to make the Premier League more interesting.

Arsene Wenger came up with it the other day when a few of us journos were chatting with him at the airport before the flight to Porto.

The Arsenal manager suggests that there should be a play-off so as to keep the league alive and buzzing with something to play for right until the end of the season.

Not surprisingly though, Wenger doesn't think it should be at the top of the table between the teams that finish in fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh for the fourth and final Champions League spot.

Wenger believes the play-off should be between the teams in 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th as to who should get the third and final relegation slot.

Last year, that would have been between Blackburn, Sunderland, Hull and Newcastle. The year before would've been Reading, Fulham, Bolton and Sunderland. 06/07 was Sheffield United, Wigan, Fulham and West Ham.

But this is where it gets interesting. In 05/06 it would have been between Birmingham, Portsmouth, Aston Villa and Manchester City.

Still interested now? Let's see how Randy Lerner would fancy that. Or, for that matter Sheikh Mansour.

It would take 14 clubs to vote in favour to change the current Champions League process. Will they get that through? Probably. Think about it. Who would vote against it? Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. No-one else.

You could argue it shakes up the league, makes it more interesting. Apart from the fact when you've played 38 games, you generally deserve to be where you've finished. There can be some big, big gaps between fourth and seventh place.

Furthermore, if a team from seventh got in, did badly, that would damage our coefficient rating. We've only got four places because the Premier League clubs have a good record in Europe.

We could lose that fourth Champions League place in no time. Then, Richard Scudamore wouldn't look so clever, would he?

You can earn Â£30million in Champions League revenue. You stand to lose Â£30million if you get relegated. So, if clubs think play-offs for fourth place are clever why not do it at the other end, too?

Bet the voting wouldn't be quite as strong then. All the talk about needing to keep the league interesting may disappear and be replaced with deserving to end up where you finish after 38 games.

Imagine that, finishing 15th and get relegated? No chance.

Sorry, the play-off for the fourth Champions League slot is a joke, a non-starter and can reward clubs not for consistency and good business sense but luck and boom and bust.

Think of it this way. A club gambles, spends beyond its means on wages and transfers. If it finishes seventh, then it may fluke it into the Champions League.

If it finishes eighth then it may go out of business. Just think Leeds and Portsmouth. What a joke. The Premier League would effectively be encouraging clubs to gamble and potentially go out of business.

Yeah, they're really encouraging clubs to be run well, sensibly and consistently.

Wenger has finished in the Champions League places in each of the full seasons he has taken charge of since arriving just after the start of the 96/97 campaign.

If that was rewarded with a trophy, Wenger would be the most successful manager in English football history.

It isn't. As a result, Wenger is under pressure to win some silverware this season and fans say he should be winning the FA and League Cup. Agreed.

But what is more lucrative? And if the FA Cup offered the fourth Champions League spot do fans really not think that Arsenal would go for it more rather than rest players?

The Champions League place is a better prize to Arsenal as a football club than the FA Cup in terms of finance. And finance is what it's all about in the Premier League. Just ask those clubs fighting relegation.

Sadly, you just don't get a trophy for qualifying for the Champions League.