ARE SOME OF US GOING A BIT OTT?

[paperclip]

I agree with Percy completely. How anyone can watch what happened in real time, see the speed that it happened at, and then say it was deliberate is beyond me.

[flash gunner]

The only thing about the tackle was if Shawcross' intentions was to get the ball what the fuck was he planning to do by kicking so hard, it was such an almighty kick it would have gone out of the stadium!!!!!! I think he intended to kick Ramsey or any Arenal player in the way after mis controlling it but i accept he didnt intend to break his leg but in such a reckless tackle a bad injury was a possibility

Good point too. He was reckless, no doubt about it. And that is the problem with the prevailing culture. Players can tend to be reckless, which can lead to serious (if unintended) injury.

The problem with compartmentalising everything is you then have to define it. What is reckless?

I agree that the "tackle" was very forceful and aggresive but again by what standards do you measure this by?

Yes, Shawcross's actions were a contributing factor I totally agree but there is no way on this earth that there was any intent towards Ramsey.

And that is the key, intent.

I think the tackle was over the top, as i said before what did he plan to do to the ball? I think recklessness is the important thing in judging a tackle by and intent can only be known by the player involved

[skipper]

No, I don't think I'm OTT.

Shawcross is a thug. He wanted to hurt Ramsey.

Here is a food for a thought; what if Shawcross reacted the way he did (tears and slobbering) because he thought he fcuked up his England call up? What if it had to do nothing with remorse he felt over possibly ending Ramsey's career?

As long as we follow the official "it was an accident" line, it will keep happening to us.

[Percy Dalton]

How much are you getting paid to sensationalize things Percy?

My services are free!

I was going to come on here and write something on Saturday night but I thought everyone was still far to raw over the incident and it was best to hold my tongue.

[paperclip]

You think in the split second leading up to the challenge he was planning to do something to the ball?
To me, he saw a loose ball and commited to trying to win it, nothing more.

[Percy Dalton]

No, I don't think I'm OTT.

Shawcross is a thug. He wanted to hurt Ramsey.

There is a food for a thought. What if Shawcross reacted the way he did (tears and slobbering) because he thought he fcuked up his England call up? What if it had to do nothing with remorse he felt over possibly ending Ramsey's career?

As long as we follow the official "it was an accident" line, it will keep happening to us.

Oh for fucks sake this is exactly the unbalnced view I am talking about.

So Shawcross has just broken a kids leg, seen his ankle at right angles to his shin and was only distraught about the England squad he didn't know he was in at the time?

[brazilianGOONER]

The only thing about the tackle was if Shawcross' intentions was to get the ball what the fuck was he planning to do by kicking so hard, it was such an almighty kick it would have gone out of the stadium!!!!!! I think he intended to kick Ramsey or any Arenal player in the way after mis controlling it but i accept he didnt intend to break his leg but in such a reckless tackle a bad injury was a possibility

quoting arseblog, it does not matter his intent. if you go around speeding in your car it does not matter if you sincerely just wanted to get to your destination a little quicker, without wanting to run over the poor 10yo boy who was crossing the street. you have responsabilities, and any player who goes into a tackle like he did (and did more in the past, adebayor is an example) should receive more than a 3 match ban. song will be out for 2 matches for doing fuck all!! ramsey will be out for over a year and suffer niggling injuries for the rest of his carrer for doing nothing. and the fucker who went WAY over the top on that challenge will miss 3 games? and get called to the international squad??

fuck me, i hope brazil does not face england. i wouldn't enjoy seeing kaka having his leg broken by that cunt.

Yo seem to have a very different use for the word intent in Brazil then!

To have intent, you must be saying that Shawcross intentianally went into that tackle to hurt Aaron Ramsey as much as possible.

To me that is simply not the case.

Also, your analogy about cars doesn't hold water. If you drive to fast and run over someone the intent is not proven by the fact you was speeding. The speed you was doing is a factor but it no way does it prove that if you go 40 mph in a 30 mph zone did you want to kill someone.

you missed my point. the word here means exactly the same. intent does not matter. you are right, if i drive faster, it does not mean i want to kill anyoner. but if i do kill someone (without intent) i should still be punished for it, because i was irresponsible to drive faster, as i should know it increases the risk of killing someone.

if you tackle like he did, the chances of hurting someone are a LOT bigger. he didn't want to, but he may have destroyed aaron's entire career. fuck intent, it was a reckless tackle, and he should be out of the game for at least 6 months, so that he rethinks the way he tackles.

or do you want him to hurt someone else before?

[skipper]

No, I don't think I'm OTT.

Shawcross is a thug. He wanted to hurt Ramsey.

There is a food for a thought. What if Shawcross reacted the way he did (tears and slobbering) because he thought he fcuked up his England call up? What if it had to do nothing with remorse he felt over possibly ending Ramsey's career?

As long as we follow the official "it was an accident" line, it will keep happening to us.

Oh for fucks sake this is exactly the unbalnced view I am talking about.

So Shawcross has just broken a kids leg, seen his ankle at right angles to his shin and was only distraught about the England squad he didn't know he was in at the time?

Why? It's as credible as "Ryan is lovely lad, not a bad bone in his body, wouldn't hurt a fly" view.

And I'm quite sure he knew he was one "commited" game away from England's squad.

[mike]

The point is, i don't think many are saying that he intenionally set out to 'do' him it is a consequence of messages ringing in these players ears from their managers to 'get amongst them' and 'rough em up a bit' which can ultimatly lead to reckless tackles, leading to terrible injuries. 3 broken legs in 4 years tells the tale i'm afraid. All up North to inferior teams carried out by inferior english players! The proof is in the pudding.

[Gunnerz4life]

I dont think anyone here is saying that Shawcross went in the challenge trying to break Aaron's leg. To be honest, the only person who can tell whether he was trying to hurt him or not is Shawcross himself. But he is not a guy with a clean record as people seem to be saying in his defense (his ridiculous tackle on Adebayor when the ball was out of play and the tackle that seriously injured Jeffers comes to mind). The only thing that should make people give him the benefit of the doubt is the fact that its almost unimaginable to think a player wanting to hurt a fellow player in that way.

I dont feel sorry for Shawcross, I dont buy the "he will have to live with it" nonsense. How do we know he would even care about what he has done after his 3 game ban is over? There's only one victim in this and his name is not Ryan Shawcross. But at the same time I wont demonise him for that challenge. The challenge was reckless without a doubt, but thats the culture thats bred among footballers in England. If you're not good enough, go kick your opponent who is better since they dont like it up them. I have heard of lot of people saying the same thing about Ramsey as they did for Eduardo, they were a bit too quick for the defenders. Thats their fault, they were a bit too good for the clumsy English defenders. If thats the case, its the duty of the FA and the referees to protect these talents and not shorten there careers by leaving them vulnerable to such assaults.

[DB10GOONER]

No, I don't think I'm OTT.

Shawcross is a thug. He wanted to hurt Ramsey.

Here is a food for a thought; what if Shawcross reacted the way he did (tears and slobbering) because he thought he fcuked up his England call up? What if it had to do nothing with remorse he felt over possibly ending Ramsey's career?

As long as we follow the official "it was an accident" line, it will keep happening to us.

Maybe. But I doubt it. I've broken a player's leg before. And We had both been kicking lumps out of each other the whole game. We both went in for a 50/50 ball like idiots at pace and he pulled out at the last second. I was so caught up in making sure he knew he wasn't getting one over on me I just ploughed in. I caught him bad. To be honest I felt like puking when I saw what I'd done. I never intended to break his leg but I still did. I didn't even get booked but I was just out of that game from then on. My coach took me off. I was upset for days afterwards and felt like a cunt TBH.

Similarly the guy that broke my ankle a couple years ago was distraught when he saw it. He had gone in well OTT but I believe he didn't intend to break my ankle. He wanted to mark his territory, leave it a bit late, make me think twice about running at him again. It's reckless and foolish I accept but it is a part of a lot of players' games.

I happens. Players go in hard. I think 99% of them would feel genuinely remorseful after doing such a serious injury to a fellow player. Especially one like Ramsey - a decent lad, not mouthy or known for being a dirty player or an arrogant wanker.

[skipper]

No, I don't think I'm OTT.

Shawcross is a thug. He wanted to hurt Ramsey.

Here is a food for a thought; what if Shawcross reacted the way he did (tears and slobbering) because he thought he fcuked up his England call up? What if it had to do nothing with remorse he felt over possibly ending Ramsey's career?

As long as we follow the official "it was an accident" line, it will keep happening to us.

Maybe. But I doubt it. I've broken a player's leg before. And We had both been kicking lumps out of each other the whole game. We both went in for a 50/50 ball like idiots at pace and he pulled out at the last second. I was so caught up in making sure he knew he wasn't getting one over on me I just ploughed in. I caught him bad. To be honest I felt like puking when I saw what I'd done. I never intended to break his leg but I still did. I didn't even get booked but I was just out of that game from then on. My coach took me off. I was upset for days afterwards and felt like a cunt TBH.

Similarly the guy that broke my ankle a couple years ago was distraught when he saw it. He had gone in well OTT but I believe he didn't intend to break my ankle. He wanted to mark his territory, leave it a bit late, make me think twice about running at him again. It's reckless and foolish I accept but it is a part of a lot of players' games.

I happens. Players go in hard. I think 99% of them would feel genuinely remorseful after doing such a serious injury to a fellow player. Especially one like Ramsey - a decent lad, not mouthy or known for being a dirty player or an arrogant wanker.

Thanks for sharing this mate

Can I just ask you, regarding statements in bold...is that intention to hurt, or is it something else?

[Percy Dalton]

I simply think we are getting slightly to caught up in conspiracy theories.

It may well be that the three serious breaks were not coincidence but what I am saying is that you have to look at this in a rational manner in order to see why they happened.

I don't believe for one minute that it was because we were playing Northern teams but I do believe it has a lot to do with the speed of ours against others from all over the world.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Yes, Shawcross's actions were a contributing factor I totally agree but there is no way on this earth that there was any intent towards Ramsey.

And that is the key, intent.

That’s the thing for me though, the issue of whether or not there was any malicious intent in Shawcross’ challenge is actually clouding the issue. I don’t believe for a second he set out to break his leg & I also believe his tears afterwards were genuine. I actually think he’s a decent defender too.

But the fact remains that it was an uncontrolled, reckless challenge made with unnecessary force as part of an overall attempt to intimidate & stop us through fair means or foul. Even Pulis accepted the challenge itself was bad. And it’s this attitude and approach adopted by Stoke & numerous others that makes these sorts of challenges all the more frequent against us & as a result injuries like these all the more likely.

Thing is, each time the Bolton’s of this world have crossed the line of what’s within the rules of the game against us & then gone unpunished by the ref & had their approach condoned & even encouraged by the press/media etc the boundaries of what’s acceptable & what constitutes a foul (against us) gets pushed back a little bit further. Wenger complains & gets labelled a whinging Frenchman who wants to turn football into a non-contact sport by opposition managers, their pals in the pundit business & the (often) xenophobic press alike.

And as a result a general consensus builds up that we’re only complaining cos we’re too weak to stand up to strong but “fairâ€

[flash gunner]

Yes, Shawcross's actions were a contributing factor I totally agree but there is no way on this earth that there was any intent towards Ramsey.

And that is the key, intent.

That’s the thing for me though, the issue of whether or not there was any malicious intent in Shawcross’ challenge is actually clouding the issue. I don’t believe for a second he set out to break his leg & I also believe his tears afterwards were genuine. I actually think he’s a decent defender too.

But the fact remains that it was an uncontrolled, reckless challenge made with unnecessary force as part of an overall attempt to intimidate & stop us through fair means or foul. Even Pulis accepted the challenge itself was bad. And it’s this attitude and approach adopted by Stoke & numerous others that makes these sorts of challenges all the more frequent against us & as a result injuries like these all the more likely.

Thing is, each time the Bolton’s of this world have crossed the line of what’s within the rules of the game against us & then gone unpunished by the ref & had their approach condoned & even encouraged by the press/media etc the boundaries of what’s acceptable & what constitutes a foul (against us) gets pushed back a little bit further. Wenger complains & gets labelled a whinging Frenchman who wants to turn football into a non-contact sport by opposition managers, their pals in the pundit business & the (often) xenophobic press alike.

And as a result a general consensus builds up that we’re only complaining cos we’re too weak to stand up to strong but “fairâ€