IDIOTS

[gus ceasar is a legend]

I am saying no more on this subject....it's too touchy!

All I will say is I never think of religion when I use the Y word and have never abused someone for their chosen faith!

To be honest I am suprised about of the amount of objection there is to the word!

How does the word **** compare with the way Sacha Baren Cohen (Ali G/Borat) abuses his own religin I wonger though? That is a genuine question to our Jewish friends amongst us.

[Galasso]

Well said DanielD (though I have no idea what celebrating the silvester is).

A Jewish Gooner colleague of mine read the debate on this thread the other day. He said he (like all Jews he knows) finds the use of "****" etc offensive. He also said that, when he was a kid in the 80s, he and his brother seriously worried about getting beaten up at games by fellow Arsenal fans for being Jewish. They didn't think the abuse was a joke and did think it was targeted at them, as Jews, not just Spurs fans. Is that what Arsenal fans intend to do, intimidate children who go to Arsenal games to support Arsenal? Of course not, but that's the effect.

I know most Arsenal fans don't consciously use the language to abuse Jews, and it all stems from (mostly non-Jewish) Spurs fans' own use of "****", but we can't ignore the effect our thoughtless use of language has. I hope over time that we all come to realise that this just isn't on. As has been said, many white people in the UK in the 60s and 70s thought it was ok to use terms like "coon", "coloured" and "Paki", but that changed. I can only hope that those who still think it's ok to use racist language about Jews (and others) learn to stop doing so in the same way.

I imagine silvester is New Year's celebration (DanielD?)

As DanielD pointed out, if people still want to use offensive language even after knowing it's background, then that's a problem - mainly for them in relation to Arsenal's duty.

However, Cus did end his excellent piece on this issue by saying that he was concerned about what took place in that stadium - and people were free to practice there ignorance out of earshot. Now I know that Cus can't change the world (although I bet he would have a go! )but I feel that if people want the use of these terms stopped at Arsenal, then judging by the posts on here, without it being extended to other clubs then it just not going to stop.

The original article is about these chants at Arsenal, the guys are offended by these terms from other Arsenal fans. On here, most people who want to carry on using them cite the sp**s reasoining. So, why not get something joint going between both clubs and then maybe we will see, in the end, these terms petering out.

It may not change wider society (because I sure as hell know people who would never use the word nigger inside a football stadium but use it freely outside), but it might change things in the stadium - if that is all we are concerned with.

[Cus Geezer]

How does the word **** compare with the way Sacha Baren Cohen (Ali G/Borat) abuses his own religin I wonger though? That is a genuine question to our Jewish friends amongst us.

Well Sacha Baron Cohen does it in the character of a Central Asian Muslim. It's Alf Garnett style humour, you're not supposed to be laughing with the character and his racism you're supposed to be laughing at it.

Muslims probably have more of a claim of racism against Cohen than Jews do.

but I feel that if people want the use of these terms stopped at Arsenal, then judging by the posts on here, without it being extended to other clubs then it just not going to stop.

Well if Arsenal crack down on it then it will stop at Arsenal, which I think is the primary source of the claimant's bugbear - they have to sit within earshot of it evry fortnight.

And as I said earlier - judicial precedent is going to be a big thing here. If it is established as a point of law that '****!' and '****' are deemed to be racist terms then they would treated as seriously as the words 'nigger' and 'pakis' are, other clubs will act as they will not want similar law suits brought against them.

[Galasso]

And then you have to ask why those terms such as nigger and paki are seen to be treated more seriously than terms such as **** or yiddo which have been sung or voiced, in whatever context, at virtually every game Arsenal has played for as long as I can remember.

[Cus Geezer]

And then you have to ask why those terms such as nigger and paki are seen to be treated more seriously than terms such as **** or yiddo which have been sung or voiced, in whatever context, at virtually every game Arsenal has played for as long as I can remember.

Well there's plenty of explainations as to why it is so. Firstly Jews are white, without skull caps and traditional dress they look indistinguishable to whites. Much of anti-racism thinks in white/non-white terms. Because of this Jews can melt into the melting pot a lot easier (think Alf Garnett), blacks can't therefore issues of racism would be pushed with more gusto.

A lot of anti-racism is pushed because of the large number of high profile balck players - it's not a challenge to name any famous black players. Famous Jewish players however are a little harder - unless their Israeli then it's obvious.

Also - and I think you're right here - Spurs fans in adopting the word have trivialized it's use.

[gus ceasar is a legend]

No Cus I was referring to anti-semetic songs song by Cohen such as "Throe the Jew Down the Well"!

Please don't have the audacity to tell me what an how to laugh at something!

[U.F.G Anfield '89]

Well Sacha Baron Cohen does it in the character of a Central Asian Muslim. It's Alf Garnett style humour, you're not supposed to be laughing with the character and his racism you're supposed to be laughing at it.

Actually, as is said in the movie, Borat is Kazak, he follows the Hawk.

If anyone has a complaint against him then it's the people from former eastern bloc states who he portrays as backwards and racist, however considering things such as the alarming rise of Neo-Nazi-ism in these countries in recent years, this could well be considered fair comment.

[Cus Geezer]

No Cus I was referring to anti-semetic songs song by Cohen such as "Throe the Jew Down the Well"!

Please don't have the audacity to tell me what an how to laugh at something!

I didn't have the fucking audacity to tell you what to laugh at, it's Cohen's intention that the audience laugh at Borat's irrational hatred of Jews, not Jews. As was 'Throw the Jew Down The Well'.

If that point was lost on you then go back to posting threads about tits as it seems about your level.

[Cus Geezer]

Well Sacha Baron Cohen does it in the character of a Central Asian Muslim. It's Alf Garnett style humour, you're not supposed to be laughing with the character and his racism you're supposed to be laughing at it.

Actually, as is said in the movie, Borat is Kazak

Well yeah that's in Central Asia

[gus ceasar is a legend]

I asked a genuine question asking how forms of insult compared!

I rather think that your level has just been lowered to insults...precisely the thing you spend your time moaning about from your soap box!

You seem to be a very bitter and judgemental person Cus! Maybe this aint quite the place for you if we are so sub-standard due to our racist comments and childish tit jokes!

Try the Panorama forum instead and please do not try to insult me.....even more so as insluting behaviour towards people seems to be something you are very passionate about.......when it suits!

[U.F.G Anfield '89]

i know that, in the movie the guy at the rodeo asks him if he's a muslim, he replies "no i am kazak, we follow the hawk."

[Cus Geezer]

i know that, in the movie the guy at the rodeo asks him if he's a muslim, he replies "no i am kazak, we follow the hawk."

Kazakhstan is a predominantly Muslim country though, so it has an inherent connotation that there would be casual anti-semetism there for that reason alone.

I think that particular reply about following the hawk is aimed at Small town Middle America's lack of knowledge of the outside world - you could tell them any old shit about a place like Kazakhstan and they'd believe it.

[Hagbard 23]

Well Sacha Baron Cohen does it in the character of a Central Asian Muslim. It's Alf Garnett style humour, you're not supposed to be laughing with the character and his racism you're supposed to be laughing at it.

So what you're saying is, its racist if a European says these things, but its funny if a Jew , (Sacha Baron-Cohen) says it?

You are as confused as Borat mate.

I have nothing against Israeli/Jewish people. I apologised for my earlier remarks which may have caused offence.
When I use the term **** or **** (thanks TS) I refer to the Tottenham scum.

Jesus, there are far too many knee-jerk liberals spouting off round here.

SHALOM

[gus ceasar is a legend]

No reply about how you can complain about insults but throw them around yourself I see!

[Cus Geezer]

So what you're saying is, its racist if a European says these things, but its funny if a Jew , (Sacha Baron-Cohen) says it?

You are as confused as Borat mate.

No when a Jew creates an anti-semetic character it's called taking the piss out of your oppressors

No reply about how you can complain about insults but throw them around yourself I see!

you know the only comment you've made on this thread I liked was this one

I am saying no more on this subject

The content of your comments could block lavatories they're so full of shit.

We've done this thread to death now and I don't believe that the likes of Hagbard and Gus have given an even remotely credible argument.

I've got nothing more to add as far as I'm concerned because as the old saying goes 'never wrestle with a chimney sweep because you can never come out of it clean'.