NOT GOOD ENOUGH

Post by **REB** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:00 pm

been a arsenal fan a long time ts and will never settle for second best,
had years of it in the 70's80's and 90's and now we have money and the stadium i dont see why we cant push on and become the big club we all feel we should be

augie · Post by **augie** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:35 pm

I believe TS that the song for ade is just an easy song to sing more than a reflection of the fans confidence in his ability in much the same way that we sang songs about perry groves but with respect to perry he was hardly world class was he ?

I think most of us would have taken a top 2 finish at the start of the season and I, like yourself, had real concerns about holding onto a champs lge place. However now we find ourselves in with a shout of actually winning the league due to a mixture of improved performances, a lot of much needed and overdue luck and it shouldnt be ignored either that the shortcomings of some of our rivals has played a part in where we stand now too. However where I am, and I believe Rebel is, coming from is that all that is important is where we go from here. We have a strong nucleas here and have the necessary funds in place to bring in quality players(so I am told anyway

) but does wenger have the balls/mettle to do what is necessary to kick on from here ? Is he willing to pay the necessary money to bring in quality players that are ready right now to make a positive contribution to our efforts this season ? Is he willing to risk upsetting some of our "potential stars" by bringing in proven quality right now thus possibly hindering their chances of the 1st team but in doing so will send out a clear message to all the players that THIS is our time and not some mythical season somewhere in the future

?

Our history is littered with players that looked outstanding prospects as kids but failed to make it at our level since(graham barrett,lupoli,aliadaire to name just 3 recent players). Placing all our eggs in their possible basket is a big risk and where will it leave these plans if cesc decides to piss off back to spain in the summer ? I am not looking for widespread investment here but I do believe that if we are serious about challenging then we need a top quality keeper and an anelka,huntellar or striker of that ilk to provide the regualr supply of goals

Post by **T.S** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:50 pm

Well that's the point, Augie; I never said Ade was world class (quite the opposite, if you care to read other threads), but there is a difference between being world class and a fans favourite.

Anyway, discussing whether or not Ade is a fans favourite or not is irrelevant. Wenger obviously thinks Ade is an integral part of the future of this Club, as the way the team plays seems to be shaped around him.

And, as for us pushing on, I agree Reb. However, I think we've all been a bit spoiled by success recently, and I think this year is probably a year too early for us to be expecting to win the big prizes. A second place finish is definitely huge progress.

AFC 49'er · Post by **AFC 49'er** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:55 pm

Rebel normally I agree with most of your comments but quite frankly you are just whinging.

I tend to read most of the posts have a laugh and leave it or the usual suspects to keep the passion flowing, but you (and others) have really pissed me off over the past few days

Adebayor is doing a good job considering the rest of the team is playing average at moment - so lay off him

Eboue - yes he is irritating and he may not be everyone favorite but bloody hell at leas he has a work ethic which puts other more talented players to shame. Start watching the good he does instead of all this prejudice that is building up against him.

Almunia - what does this guy have to do to get some praise from this forum

It seems this forum has reduced into a, lets slag off our players site - It can be frustrating not winning but we have no devine right to win and its a given that teams raise their game against us

Another point money does not = success. Basically, if we threw Â£70m at 2 or 3 overpriced prima donas, will that ensure we pick up even 1 trophy - hell no - in fact they would most likely come with baggage and upset the team spirit.

I can only deduce that so many of you moaners out there want Mr Wenger to go, because you don't have faith in him - well I do

1974, 1975, 1976 - 3 of my earliest years as a gooner I try hard to forget but in a way I am glad I never will - It makes me appreciate just what a fantastic team we are priveliged to watch week in week out even when they are not at their best.

augie · Post by **augie** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:13 pm

So basically afc 49'er every player that is any good and will improve our team will come with baggage and disrupt the harmony of our team ??

Did DB10 disrupt the team when he was signed or did henry,overmars or kanu for that matter ? These players were big name players at that time but have all to varying degrees made positive contributions to the successes we have had under wenger. Can you honestly tell me that if you had your own business it would be more important to you that all your employees were happy together rather than hire some new employees that would increase the productivity and profitability of your business

This team & squad needs more quality players and even the rose tinted crew here all agree on that but wenger seems reluctant to do what is needed. I dont think there is even 1 member on this forum that wants wenger out but, in the same way we the fans criticise players for poor performances, so should wenger be treated the same.

PS Many of us have supported Arsenal through those dark depressing years but some of us have come out with different views as a result of those years - I am firmly in the camp that says that this is our chance to become a dominant force so that we never again drop back into those dark days and that if we stand still happy in the progress we have made since those years then very soon ambitious players like cesc will be off to clubs who want to do what is needed for success and are willing to do it

Bring Back Pires · Post by **Bring Back Pires** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:19 pm

Overmars did come with baggage. He spent at least an entire season arguing with Anelka, before leaving for Barcelona because he was too good for us.

As for Henry and Kanu, they had nothing going for them when they arrived, so they couldn't dare show any signs of an attitude.

Most people on this forum criticise Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Tottenham for spending big bucks in the summer, as it's resulted in little success. Why then turn the tables and demand that we spend likewise, when we're a point off the top?!

Post by **REB** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:00 pm

afc49er, the good thing about a forum and this one in particular is that people have opinions and can say free of censorship what they like ( within reason , no racist shit etc )
amd people will disagree which makes for good debate and sometimes also a good laugh,
i stand by my comments because its what i believe, as i said ive been a gooner now long enough to not want to go back to the bad days and want us to move on because i love this club and dont want us to be second best to anyone

i love arsene wenger for what he's done for our club and i hope he never leaves but to believe that arsene knows and is never wrong is just not right,
he makes mistakes like every manager does but there never was a doubt that he is still the man to take us forward,
as said it is a forum and we'l just have to agree to disagree and thats the fun of a forum theres just no right and wrong,

now thats enough of the long posts from me as im going back to talking about tits

Wayno · Post by **Wayno** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:22 pm

During the summer months I was worried that after losing Henry to Barca we would continue to go through a transitional period at Arsenal and any improvement on fourth place looked unlikely. Our squad looked weak in comparison to those of Manure, Chavski & the Scousers.

However the performances that we put in during the early part of this season were nothing short of breath taking and quietened the media frenzy which had predicted nothing but doom and gloom for our beloved team.

Chavski parted company with Mourinho & Manure stumbled out of the starting blocks, I started to believe that perhaps Wenger had pulled off a master stroke and that we were indeed in a position to push for the title.

Unfortunately due to a number of injuries and Wengers bizarre love affair with the 4-5-1 formation, we have not been able to maintain such high standards. In the past couple of months we have struggled to see off teams that true title contenders would have brushed aside and as a result we have seen us squander a healthy advantage in the league.

Admittedly we have enjoyed successes against both the Chavs & Spuds, but neither victory were convincing and some may say that against the Spuds we were fortunate not to have been beaten.

I am not writing Arsenal off for this season as I do believe that we can and will improve on our fourth place finishes from the past two seasons and that should be measured as a success.

I do also feel however, that unless we quickly see a return to the form that was on display at the start of the season, we will not finish within ten points of Manure.

Post by **DB10GOONER** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:13 am

Not much I can add to this thread (most areas have been well covered) but I would say that this may just be a blip in our form (and coming from a veteran of the underachieving 70's and the woeful 80's that's about as positive as I can manage).

I agree that 4-5-1 is too negative and stifling for us and I agree that we need to strengthen the squad (I said as much last May TBH) but we cannot write off the rest of the season based on three or four bad performances. Not yet, anyway.

The deciding factor will be how the team responds to those poor performances; whether they up their game or keep on in the same vein.

One worrying thing that no one on here has mentioned (that I'm aware of) is Cesc's recent dip in form. He was pretty subdued in the two games before pompey away and absolutely hopeless at pompey. I know criticizing Cesc is tantamount to lunacy in a lot of peoples eyes but his work rate and passing on Wednesday night was shockingly bad and he looked like he just wasn't arsed for most of the game... not good.

Hopefully it will turn out to be just a short bad patch because if we are to have any chance of pushing for the title we need him on form.

Trevheff · Post by **Trevheff** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:21 am

Firstly guys I love passionate debate like this as it shows we love our club.

We've now got money, and yes Arsene could go out and spend. Personally I'd like to see him strengthen 2/3 areas. However a few years ago, when the Ashburton Grove project was dreamed up Arsene had to plan for having little money to spend (compared to our main rivals) for a few seasons while we waited for the extra revenue to arrive. It was an enforced stratedgy which meant he had to blood youngsters and build on the cheap. He, and the coaching & scouting staff, have invested massive time and effort into finding and developing our current crop. It's bene painful at times for us fans, but it has produced probably the best group of young players our great club has ever seen. Admittedly not all will make it.

That project/stratedgy is on the verge of baring fruit in a big way IMO. It's the final part of the learning curve for these guys before they seriously challenge for the title. It just so happens that it coincides with the money finally arriving. So should Arsene now splash out and and turn his back on the players he has spent 4 years developing? That would be criminal in IMO.

Yes we are the Arsenal, no we shouldn't be happy with second place. But we have to recognise that we have gone through a period unprecedented in the clubs history with the stadium move and the knock on effects that has. I just thank God (and I'm not overly religous!) that we had a man like Arsene Wenger to guide us through that period.

Making big buys now might bring the title. But will it bring lasting success? Bringing players through, trusting them and teaching them the Arsenal way might mean we miss out this season. But for me it enhances our chances of dominating for a long period of time.

We have improved dramatically compared to last season. Has that come about from massive investment? No. It's come from Arsene allowing players time, allowing them to make mistakes but making sure they learn from them. If we make the same level improvement from this season to next, any team, Chelsea and Utd included, will do well to live with us.

Of course I want the title this year, but lets not consign 4/5 years of hard graft to the dustbin just becuase we suddenly have money. I honestly think Arsene thinks its a year too soon. I can't argue that buying a keeper, another striker and and maybe a centre back now could massively enhance our chances of being Champions this term. But I want 3, 4, 5 titles, not just one this season!! Allowing the current group to finishing their development for me is the best bet for prolonged success.

Our form has dipped. But show me any title winning side of the past 20 years who didn't have a dip in form at some stage in their season? Even the Invincibles had their dips. Our dip in form this season has seen us grind out home wins against Chelsea and Spurs. Saw us hold out despite a second half battering at Villa and grind a dull 0-0 away from home over Christmas. (Ok don't mention Boro in the same way Utd fans don't want to mention Bolton). We would have loved to have got those results last season when not playing well!!

Guys some times I think we need to wake up and smell the roses.

augie · Post by **augie** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:06 am

Trevheff we are not suggesting that we spend money now simply cos we have it but rather cos we NEED to. This squad is too light but in numbers and quality. For a start lets look at those who are at present classed as closest back up to the 1st team -

Lehman. Personally I would rather have him in goals than almunia but he is nowhere near a happy man and has probably accepted that he is finished at the club at this stage.

Gilberto. A good servant to the club over the last few years but clearly his legs are gone probably due to a combination of age and lack of games.

Senderos. A player that 2 seasons ago looked like he was the new TA6 but after being mauled by drogba repeatidly seems to be a shadow of that player and looks like he will not ever recover as a player at Arsenal. Has totally lost the faith of the fans which is sad really.

Eduardo/Bedtner/Theo. All 3 come into the bracket of potential good players but wenger obviously doesnt trust them as it stands so you have to ask where that leaves them as players and where it leaves the team when we need someone to step in and cover for yet another van persie injury

It has to be said that gilberto & lehman cannot be happy(understandibly so) with the lack of starts and when you also throw diarra into that mix then we have 3 possible jan departures straight away. Unlike many on this forum I dont actually hate eboue as a player(his histronics though are a different matter

) but clearly he is no winger and again to me it shows a lacking in the squad that he is being played there in the 1st place. That he & kolo are going awol for 6 weeks as well will only further weaken a small squad. So if anybody on this forum or anywhere else honestly feels that we have at present enough of a squad to win a league then they clearly are looking at a different picture than I am. What I/we want is just 2 or 3 key additions that can make the world of difference in the 2nd half of the season as we compete for titles. For the last few years we have been living on scraps cos we could not afford to buy when we need to but now we have cash then we MUST spend it when and where it is needed. As I stated above placing all your hopes on young players (that may or may not make it) when you appear reluctant to play them in the 1st place borders on unbelieveable and at best can only be described as risky - something a club of our stature should never need to do

proudtosaythatname · Post by **proudtosaythatname** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:57 am

I was a bit unhappy with Arsene's response to the Pompey draw - we must expect negativity from teams who think they can't beat us before they even get on the pitch. If Cesc had scored in the first attack things would have been very different. And whilst I agree with a lot of the criticism expressed here, especially concerning the frustratingly and continuously offside Adebayor - not lazy, just lacking a football brain - I still think many of you are too negative about our dip in form. We've done better than expected and for me the glass is still half full. Maybe we need one striker in Jan - I'm truly worried about RVP's injury problems - but apart from that Wenger has shown with the Carling Cup he aims to bring development to fruition. And I do like Almunia - especially after that pretty good penalty save. He's a team player, unlike Jens.

EdgeOfTown · Post by **EdgeOfTown** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:04 pm

Bring Back Pires wrote:I won't criticise Adebayor for ONLY scoring 10 goals. If we played typical 'route one' football and looked for him to be our only goal threat, then it would be a mildly disappointing tally.

But Wenger looks to get the whole team going forward - hence the above-par goal ratios of Pires and Ljungberg in recent years, and Fabregas this season. Therefore, with the emphasis not solely on Adebayor, his contributions to the rest of the team count just as much as the goals he's scored.

He is becoming slightly arrogant and lazy, but Henry and Kanu (respectively) were guilty of those crimes also, and that didn't stop them from becoming Arsenal legends. If his performance suffers because of it, then it's worth questioning - but at the moment, he's playing as well as can be expected in my view.

Out of the two Henry is the only legend and he did all the lazy/can't be bothered stuff when he'd MADE himself a legend..Adebayor's probably scored what, 50 goals for Arsenal..you earn the right to be lazy, even though its not acceptable from Henry, Akers, Adebayor, whoever.
Someone needs to take him to the side and have a word, he really isn't that good to be strutting about the pitch and hasn't done enough this season or previous.
Lets put it into perspective though, 4-5-1 is the reason we're no longer top. Not Adebayor, Rosicky or Eboue. We've dropped points against Boro, Newcastle, Pompey, Seville, Slavia using this formation and got Draws against Man U and Liverpool when at least against Man U, we could have played more to win the game than not to lose it.
We havent taken the game to teams and the way we're set up at the moment has got us back to the narrow, predictable football that hasn't won us anything the last few years. He's got 3 strikers, Eduardo cant even make the bench and I dont need to say anything about Bendtner, he should be starting every game at the moment..

I just hope I dont revisit this rant at the end of the season, but if we fall short, Wenger will have to justify playing a cautious and congested system, especially at home and against teams we should beat.

Trevheff · Post by **Trevheff** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:20 pm

Augie, I disagree re Gilberto. No he isn't happy (you'd question his attitude if he was) and no he doesn't have the legs of 20 year old, but his experience can still be vital for us this season. At Villa with 20 minutes to go we were rocking and being pulled all over the place. Gilberto came on and steadied the ship and showed exactly why he still has a part to play. Yes Diaby, Denilson and hopefully Diarra (toys back in the pram please) are the future. But I wouldn't be too comfortably at this stage with any of them coming on away from home with 10 minutes to go in a crucial game with inustructions to shore things up and just keep the ball. Not because they're not good enough but certainly qualities and the ability to apply them in difficult circumstances only comes with experience. That's what Gilberto gives us. He is still under contract so it's up to Arsene wheher he leaves in January. For me Arsene should tell him he's staying until the summer at least, like it or not. He may not be happy but Gilberto has shown he is a top professional and he'd still do his bit even if not happy.

Bendtner or Eduardo may not be fully ready now, but they will be if allowed to grow and develop. What message does it send them if we buy another striker to block their paths now? Why spend Â£8m on Eduardo only to give up on him after just 5 months? Wenger said from the start we would not see the best of Eduardo until after January. I do think we are short up front right now, but I think the likes of Bendtner and Eduardo (think Theo is still some way off) have the makings of top players. So buying now, IMO, would be counter productive for the future.

The daft thing is Augie I agree with most of what you're saying, but sometimes you have to take 1 step back to take 3 steps forward.

Magic Hat · Post by **Magic Hat** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:34 pm

We could use some additions to the side if the right players come up and if we sell players then possibly a replacement or two but after a decent, horrid defeat to Boro aside, December where we did better then I thought we would, I'm content. Yes 4-5-1 is frustrating but it seems Arsene was waiting for Dudu to be ready, now with double figures Ade, Dudu seeming to start finding his feet and Van Persie good when he is fit we can go 4-4-2, we just have to hope for Hleb and Cesc to return to form soon enough and we will give Man U a good chase.

Amusing thread