Liverpool declared Toxic

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:39 pm

USMartin wrote: You are engaging in deliberate deception. You had every chance not to, every warning, yet you have chosen to go ahead and do so.

So someone has a different opinion to you, produces evidence and argument not to your liking, so you accuse them of lying.
About a subject that is out of the control of fans.

Really. Why would I lie?

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:10 am

QuartzGooner wrote:
USMartin wrote: You are engaging in deliberate deception. You had every chance not to, every warning, yet you have chosen to go ahead and do so.

So someone has a different opinion to you, produces evidence and argument not to your liking, so you accuse them of lying.
About a subject that is out of the control of fans.

No someone who deliberately wiithholds evidence that undermines that argument even after having that evidence pointed out to them, and deliberately continues withholding that evidence to clearly mis-lead others reading that opinion about its valid is lying and you are doing that..

QuartzGooner wrote:Really. Why would I lie?

Because preserving some image of the Board as being purely protective of the Club's best interests in all its actions is all-important to you. Your faith in the Board its actions motives being purely having Arsenal's best interests at the heart at all times being at risk if you come to any other conclusion about them, and maybe your own difficulty to honestlly believe that now but your inabuility to cope with that doubt you feel or others are enforcing. I think you genuinely are stuggling with a crisis of faith in the Board and fighting at all costs - including sacrificing your own credibility - to salvage that faith.

Or I could just say you could just be a stooge for the Board actually working on their behalf to undermine dissenting views arisng in the supporter base.

But I think its the former really. You strike me as a decent bloke and smart guy who just doesn't want to face some uncomfortable truths - or possible truths at any point. Even over the next fifty years. I think you are trying to convince yourself as much as me or anyone else of what you believe. But that is purely my opinion.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:55 am

No lies. You just do not agree with my argument, and respond by claiming I am a liar! Ridiculous.

No crisis of faith either.

Just a wish to see a goalkeeper and defensive midfielder, and a defensive coach.

We have the funds, but Wenger has chosen not to buy, or had deals that fail, and that concerns me.

But long term, am happy with the way things are run.

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:20 am

QuartzGooner wrote:No lies. You just do not agree with my argument, and respond by claiming I am a liar! Ridiculous.

No crisis of faith either.

Just a wish to see a goalkeeper and defensive midfielder, and a defensive coach.

We have the funds, but Wenger has chosen not to buy, or had deals that fail, and that concerns me.

But long term, am happy with the way things are run.

What's ridicuous is your attempt to deny you are deliberately making a mis-leading argument and delibeataely woth-holding facts that do not support it.

What's ridiculous is you lie about lying over and over because you lack the capacity to do anything else when confronted with these facts.

Your sole defense against this is "no its not" because you can't offer any other defence.
'
You should be ashamed of yourself and embarassed. I would not be proud to deliberately mis-lead fellow suuporters and deliberately withhold facts by choice that undermine my views. I would be too ashamed to do that.

I would be if I had to lie to make my points.

All you are doing now is moving your king in and out of check as long as you can to avoid conceding the match or getting in checkmate. Thing is its already checkmate now - you just have your ears covered.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:47 am

You are just trying to personally smear me.
Every point you have made has been countered by me.

But you just ignore that, and say I deliberately mislead fellow fans!

Fair play for trying a petition but the minimal amount of genuine signatures shows how little people care for your arguments.

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:11 am

QuartzGooner wrote:You are just trying to personally smear me.
Every point you have made has been countered by me.

But you just ignore that, and say I deliberately mislead fellow fans!

Fair play for trying a petition but the minimal amount of genuine signatures shows how little people care for your arguments.

No I'm not trying to smear you I don't have to - your words speak for themselves to any objective person who reads them.

You're caught out and have been exposed and now you're just getting desperate.

Anyone who engaged in the deliberate withholding of details that migh change how thier argument is perceived is guilkty of what you are doing. I would be if I engaged in the same sort of deliberate deception. as well.

That you cannot make an hionest argument and choose to deliberately withhold details to mis-lead readers is totally on you and reflective of how you choose to conduct yourself in these discussions. Blaming me for pointing that out is just a continuation of the same behavior being called out.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:28 am

You are out of your skull man.
Coming up with this weird paranoid "Deliberate Withholding Of Information" angle???????

Giving it all this, "I'm blah blah blah rare rare rare, I was on this and that Forum ask them about me the original holder of these views from 2006" what is that supposed to mean?
Like you are some internet crusader waving his fiery sword at the board, your grapes of wrath outpoured as your try to seize the Ashburton horde?

You think you and your 11 signatures are gonna scare the board so much they will hand the club over to you on a silver platter and beg for executive immunity from your vengeance?

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:41 am

Are you druink or just as desperate as look at this point?

It's distasteful really to accuse someone of smearing you by simply pointing the facts about how you are conducting yourself in these discussions. After you have tried every accusation you could against me - saying I am not a real supporter, I am a stooge for a takeover group, I am a conspiracy theorist, I am a wind-up merchant, I have some stake in the club financailly, and that predated this last effort.

The problem is what you are. And you are someone who has chosen to make an argument you know to be dubious to influence supporters and deliberately withheld information that would undermine its credibility even when that information has been pointed out, and the fact that you have withheld has been pointed out as well.

I feel badly for you at this point because I think you realize where thiis headed now.

mrgnu1958 · Post by **mrgnu1958** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:51 am

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:14 am

mrgnu1958 wrote:

Frankie Goes To Hollywood? Neither of us said or did anything to deserve that. That's way harsh....

stg · Post by **stg** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:50 am

Niether you or I have the information we should and deserve really

Why should we have that information? Does any other Football club around the world give out anyother information like that?

I belive that you have just got a bee in your bonnet about this and like a dog with a bone just will not let it go. You said in a previous post that I should go and read some of your posts on other forums ect going back to 2005/06 so this makes it 5 or 6 years you have been writing about this subject. Now there must come a point when you realise that nothing is going to change within the board unless you happen to become a multi-millionaire and buy enough shares to get on to the board.

Also in the 5 or 6 years you have been writing about this you have actually shown on this forum no garenteed 100% proof that what you are saying is true. you do produce alot of media based support for your thoery's and you do repost your ideas many different ways to try and make your points. In truth you have no more actuall knowledge of what is happening within the board than either I, Quartz or anybody else who happens to have a differing view point to you.

As for your petition, I have found that petitions usally work the other way around you get a lot of names in the first few weeks and then they begin to drop off. There are 4024 registerd users on this forum ok a lot probably do not post on here but a % of those people probably come on here for a read of what is happening and have read your arguments and have seen the link to the petition.

Post by **QuartzGooner** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:24 pm

USMartin,

As STG has pointed out, you have spent the last five years writing on Forums of the need to get more information from the Board.

In that time:

Lady Nina-Bracewell Smith
Sir Chips Keswick
Lord Harris of Peckham
Ivan Gazidis
Stan Kroenke

Have all joined the board,
and Usmanov has bought 28% of the shares.

Also since 2005:

Sir Roger Gibbs
David Dein
Keith Edelman
Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith
Clive Carr

Have left the board.

The club has completed a new stadium and moved in, redeveloped the old stadium and almost paid it off.

In the midst of all this activity, your efforts to get more information have resulted in one letter from Ken Friar, which you said was polite but vague, and you have got roughly 11 names on a petition.

Shoddy.

northbankbren · Post by **northbankbren** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:49 pm

QuartzGooner wrote:USMartin,

As STG has pointed out, you have spent the last five years writing on Forums of the need to get more information from the Board.

In that time:

Lady Nina-Bracewell Smith
Sir Chips Keswick
Lord Harris of Peckham
Ivan Gazidis
Stan Kroenke

Have all joined the board,
and Usmanov has bought 28% of the shares.

Also since 2005:

Sir Roger Gibbs
David Dein
Keith Edelman
Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith
Clive Carr

Have left the board.

The club has completed a new stadium and moved in, redeveloped the old stadium and almost paid it off.

In the midst of all this activity, your efforts to get more information have resulted in one letter from Ken Friar, which you said was polite but vague, and you have got roughly 11 names on a petition.

Shoddy.

What he said

USMartin · Post by **USMartin** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:09 pm

Almost paid it off? Are you saying that the Board is lying then after all

this was on the Club's official website

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archiv ... -debts-now

The other thing that has happened has been Queensland Road on the south side of the Stadium. The affordable housing part of that development has been sold to a developer so we are entirely debt-free on the property side.

"It means that sales on the remaining property developments that we have in and around the south side of the stadium will be pure profit to the Club that will come into the group and be available for use."

The other thing that has happened has been Queensland Road on the south side of the Stadium. The affordable housing part of that development has been sold to a developer so we are entirely debt-free on the property side.

"It means that sales on the remaining property developments that we have in and around the south side of the stadium will be pure profit to the Club that will come into the group and be available for use."

And that was moths ago. So clearly someone here isn't telling the truth - either you or the Arsenal Board. Do tell which it is.

Quartz your rather scatter-shot approach here is proof that you have been exposed for a less=than-honest broker of these issue and know it.

Again you have chosen to often engage in making bad arguments using bad information and knowingly withholding that information even when it was pointed out to you., and this game about comparing the East And West Stands to the Highbury rte-development is one more example of this. The difference now is you're up against someone who won't juts take you at your word and let you get away with it. I think that's what frustrates you personally.

You have every right to disagree and disagree strongly and even to argue and offer a strong defnce of the Board. But you also have an obligation to who ever you argue with or reads your arguments to make tham complete and honest arguments. You engage in making deliberately mis-leading arguments and deliberately withholding factual information that might allow for people to consider the arguments in a different light than you would have them do.

You choose to do this even when it is made aware to you and you advised to re-think doing it, showing your naked disregard ofr your obligation to debate honestly, and since you have debated before I am fairly certain you have debated using the same sort of debating tactics and showing the same sort of disregard for your fellow debaters and other readers than as well. They just weren't as aware of it or as willing to call you out for it I guess.

Post by **flash gunner** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:17 pm

MY BRAIN HURTS