THE MIND OF A WENGERITE

[USMartin]

And if the diffference in those teams is how much money the Board has made available to the manager to assemble them that is a pretty significant role they have played, no?

While i agree that their is an element of truth to what you're saying , i still think that Wenger was not as hampered by lack of funds when it came to player purchases .
Do you guys think that it is a coincidence that we happen to have the lightest team in the EPL ? are small technical players much more cheaper ?
I think that it's more to it than Wenger waiting for certain players to come good, i think that he has assembled a team which he hopes will play a particular brand of football and i think it has backfired because some of them (players ) are not at the highest level.

I agree about waiting for players to come good. He has to really or all the claims that nothing really had changed would have been proven to be deceptions.

But as to the theory about wanting to build a team to play a certain way I don't buy that because he didn't bother doing that from 1998-2005 as he could have, and he could have done the very thing you describe but spent a fair bit more and had a much better side. They say we didn't go for Pato or Aguero for example because of work permit issues and not the lack of desire to pay their 20 million pound fees. But Vela had the same work permit issues - but he cost 100 thousand pounds so no problem those work permit issues then.

[I Hate Hleb]

Tony I know you're not absolving the Board. By the same token I am not giving the manager a free pass.

I just find that the facts don't support the case that Mr. Wenger has simply suddenly lost the plot or become incompetent.

I think not only are those claims incorrect but they are unfair. And if they did lead to his sacking or resignation but there was no changein the spending and team-building policies they would have proven futile and possibly leave us in as bad or an even worse position than we would be if the Board simply made the money available they had made available prior to 2005 as soon as possible.

What would be the point of sacking the manager but continued non-investment dropping us down to sixth or seventh in the League then?

I want this all fixed too. But not I want a real solution, not a fake solution.

You see that's just where you're wrong Martin. Every point I mentioned in my previous post were things that could have been rectified spending nothing or just a small amount in comparison to our profit. Or with a manager that wasn't so blind/stubborn/arrogant or - dare I say it - naive.

Extra defensive practise costs nothing; Sorting out the defence so that they know and play their position properly costs nothing; Likewise with making sure the DM does what he's supposed to; playing the right formation and tactics costs nothing; making substitutions at a more appropriate time costs nothing; hiring a defensive coach to work our back 4 would cost very little; buying a decent goal-keeper would cost a bit but nowhere near what it's costing us in dropped points by not doing so.

I don't think even Wenger would claim he couldn't have 'afforded' to do that on his current budget - miserly as you appear to think it is. So who exactly should be held responsible for those things?

[augie]

Anybody know when the next redaction "march of support for arsene" is ?

[Spiral]

But as to the theory about wanting to build a team to play a certain way I don't buy that because he didn't bother doing that from 1998-2005 as he could have

What i meant was that while technical ability coupled with great movement was and is still a hallmark of Wenger teams, their was still a physical presence and the ability to grind out results in the 1998-2005 teams.
I'm sure all of us remember in the "Invincible" season we had to grind out some results, it wasn't pretty but it was "effective", does this current squad have that ability ?, when a game is not going well to get stuck in and get a result.
I don't agree a DM with a commanding presence of Paddy could not of been found cheaply , AW has a good record of spotting talent. I do believe that he has bought and developed players in this current team with a certain stature , believing that small ,nippy players with great technical skills could easily outwit thier larger technically challenged opponents.
But is their a Plan B when things are not going as planned ?
Our football should of evolved more with Power ,pace, with the technical flair, more closely resembling the German 2010 WC team than Barcelona.

[USMartin]

Tony I know you're not absolving the Board. By the same token I am not giving the manager a free pass.

I just find that the facts don't support the case that Mr. Wenger has simply suddenly lost the plot or become incompetent.

I think not only are those claims incorrect but they are unfair. And if they did lead to his sacking or resignation but there was no changein the spending and team-building policies they would have proven futile and possibly leave us in as bad or an even worse position than we would be if the Board simply made the money available they had made available prior to 2005 as soon as possible.

What would be the point of sacking the manager but continued non-investment dropping us down to sixth or seventh in the League then?

I want this all fixed too. But not I want a real solution, not a fake solution.

You see that's just where you're wrong Martin. Every point I mentioned in my previous post were things that could have been rectified spending nothing or just a small amount in comparison to our profit. Or with a manager that wasn't so blind/stubborn/arrogant or - dare I say it - naive.

Extra defensive practise costs nothing; Sorting out the defence so that they know and play their position properly costs nothing; Likewise with making sure the DM does what he's supposed to; playing the right formation and tactics costs nothing; making substitutions at a more appropriate time costs nothing; hiring a defensive coach to work our back 4 would cost very little; buying a decent goal-keeper would cost a bit but nowhere near what it's costing us in dropped points by not doing so.

I don't think even Wenger would claim he couldn't have 'afforded' to do that on his current budget - miserly as you appear to think it is. So who exactly should be held responsible for those things?

The problem though is that none of those things will make Denilson in Mathieu Flaimini let alone Patrick Vieira, or Manuel Almunia into John Lukic let alone David Seaman or Johan Djourou into William Gallas let alone Tony Adams.

The point is that while htere are things that can be done to try to minimize issues that the players are the issue. How many times do we ask how many of our first eleven would even make the bench at Arsenal in 2004? And team put together and manged by Arsene Wenger.

Its no accident that from 1998-2005 we spent six million pounds a year and finished inthe top two every year and won seven trophies , while from 2005-now we have made four million pounds a year in the transfer market - a ten million pound shift - and have yet to win one trophy since then. Coincidence? Possibly - but very unlikely.

It would be inexcusable to sack any top manager and move backward or fail to move forward, especially if off-the-pitch matters were trumping our on-the-pitch mabition.

Seriously let's assume Mr. Wenger does not complete his contract for any reason but we are unable to bring in a top manager or provide such a manager with the funds they need to right things. What will have we achieved then?

The simple truth is you can't rectify a number of these players - they simply aren't good enough and we count on them too much because we don't go injury-free ever.Again how many of the palyers would have made the 2004 squad, let alone the bench or the first eleven?

[USMartin]

But as to the theory about wanting to build a team to play a certain way I don't buy that because he didn't bother doing that from 1998-2005 as he could have

What i meant was that while technical ability coupled with great movement was and is still a hallmark of Wenger teams, their was still a physical presence and the ability to grind out results in the 1998-2005 teams.
I'm sure all of us remember in the "Invincible" season we had to grind out some results, it wasn't pretty but it was "effective", does this current squad have that ability ?, when a game is not going well to get stuck in and get a result.
I don't agree a DM with a commanding presence of Paddy could not of been found cheaply , AW has a good record of spotting talent. I do believe that he has bought and developed players in this current team with a certain stature , believing that small ,nippy players with great technical skills could easily outwit thier larger technically challenged opponents.
But is their a Plan B when things are not going as planned ?
Our football should of evolved more with Power ,pace, with the technical flair, more closely resembling the German 2010 WC team than Barcelona.

First off I remember people going on about the lack of Plan B back in 2002-2004. That has always been one of Mr. Wenger's true failings - his teams play a certain way very effectively and that's that. That applied then and it applies now. The difference again is he had players all over the pitch and as importantly on his bench that could overcome that weakness far more often than not.

As to another Vieira-type, its not as simple as it seems. Diaby was cleary meant to be that Vieira-type and he simply isn't, so I'm not sure that player was as easily available - especially on the cheap - as one might want to think.

And we need a Gilberto or Petiti-Type, or a Flamini-type to partner the Vieira-type as well as Song has clearly lost his discipline and desire to play that role. Song really did a good if not great job and we were better off for it, but this year he is a shadow of the player of a year ago really, and that's whn he tries to play the role he's out there to play. Lately he seems to fancy himself an attacking midfielder or even a withdrawn center-forward.

The question is can we get these players for what we are willing to spend, and if not are we willing to spend more to get them?

[I Hate Hleb]

Yes money and quality is important. But all these things are the basics; the foundations that any good side should be doing as a matter of course. Even the worst defender in the world can be made better by proper coaching. Yet looking at our defence, they make the same mistakes time after time after time.

The squad we have should be good enough to win things if only the manager - not Hill Wood, Fitzmann or Kroenke, but Wenger - got these fundamentals sorted. And as I keep stating, it would all have been possible within the current budget because what I'm suggesting wouldn't have cost much.

So although I agree that the current and recent sides are not comparable to most of their predecessors in terms of talent, it's not as if we're like the Blackpool's of this world, without our fair share of good players and Internationals.

What they need is better coaching and organising. I'd be willing to bet that given the exact same squad, plus the additional money to spend that Wenger has had at his disposal this summer, that a number of other top managers would have done a better job in making sure any weaknesses were, if not eradicated, then certainly less painfully exposed then they currently are.

Does that absolutely guarantee that we would win trophies? No, but it sure as hell would give us a much better chance - even with the less than stellar squad that we currently have.

[northbankbren]

We have a team that has beaten, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Scum, Citeh.....and the rest.....THEY ARE CAPABLE.....today boiled down to the players not giving enough......today the only thing Wenger is to blame for is the fukin keeper

[QuartzGooner]

Listen Martin, much as I admire your tenacity you can't put everything on the shoulders of the Board!! No-one is saying that this team is anything like as strong as those before 2005 but the fact remains...

Wenger was the one that didn't make sure we had a good enough keeper;

Wenger is the one that doesn't ensure that we do extra defensive training;

Wenger is the one that hasn't brought in a good defensive coach;

Wenger is the one that picks the team, formation and tactics;

Wenger is the one that is supposed to tell the players what he expects from them - and that includes making sure the DM does the defensive work!!!;

Wenger is the one that delays substitutions when things aren't working until a pre-conceived time;

Wenger is the one that puts players in positions other than their favourite;

Wenger is the one that has left us with a badly balanced squad, with loads of the same types in one or two positions but other areas left thread-bare;

Wenger is the one that won't admit that certain players aren't good enough and never stops giving them chances;

Now let's say for the sake of argument that you're right that any new manager wouldn't get significant funds to strengthen the side - although I disagree as I feel that the Board would be under too much pressure that they'd be scared not to give the new man substantial funds - if the guy was anything like knowledgeable enough, he would/should be able to get sufficiently better results based solely on rectifying the weakness out-lined above.

They'd be no need for an experienced and quality manager to spend Man City type money to be able to guarantee that we didn't fall prey to the same old weaknesses over and over again. That's been the frustrating thing - Wenger's failure to address for the past few years obvious areas of weakness.

Now this isn't an excuse to let the Board off criticism; they have to take more than their share of responsibility. But it also doesn't mean Wenger should get the 'free pass' that you and others want to give him, purely because of the perception that the Board are depriving him of funds.

Very good post IHateHleb, my thoughts too, will only add that the bit about players played "Out of position" I agree with for the most part, but just think it is a feature of the modern game for most teams that players are likely to play in a couple of positions

[USMartin]

Yes money and quality is important. But all these things are the basics; the foundations that any good side should be doing as a matter of course. Even the worst defender in the world can be made better by proper coaching. Yet looking at our defence, they make the same mistakes time after time after time.

The squad we have should be good enough to win things if only the manager - not Hill Wood, Fitzmann or Kroenke, but Wenger - got these fundamentals sorted. And as I keep stating, it would all have been possible within the current budget because what I'm suggesting wouldn't have cost much.

So although I agree that the current and recent sides are not comparable to most of their predecessors in terms of talent, it's not as if we're like the Blackpool's of this world, without our fair share of good players and Internationals.

What they need is better coaching and organising. I'd be willing to bet that given the exact same squad, plus the additional money to spend that Wenger has had at his disposal this summer, that a number of other top managers would have done a better job in making sure any weaknesses were, if not eradicated, then certainly less painfully exposed then they currently are.

Does that absolutely guarantee that we would win trophies? No, but it sure as hell would give us a much better chance - even with the less than stellar squad that we currently have.

I don't disagree entirely but I simply can't agree in full either.

I just think the talent across the board especially at the back is just that defiicient that while certainly there could be some improvement I don't think it would be that much or that sufficient. It's not as if iots simply down to a back four that can't mark or a keeper who can't play or defensive midfielders who can't or won't sweep in front of the back four or wingers who don't track back defensively. We have all of those things in this team. You're right we aren't Blackpool - if we were Blackpool we could accept this.

The ideas you suggest might prevent days like these, but would they take us up to and ahead of Chelsea and United - or level with them competitively? Not with these players.

We have some trerrific players now and some players who may be terrific pretty soon but the simple truth is we have far too many players who simply aren't good enough and no amount of extra coaching and training will solve this on its own. I say we should do it but it will only be a band aid really.

[USMartin]

Like you said we aren't Blackpool, but...

I was thinking about who from this year's squad could actually have played for Arsenal in the 2004 season, and excluding Gael Clichy who was in that team, I came up with exactly three - Fabregas, Arshavin and Vermaelen. Those - in my opinion - are the only players in this team genuinely cut from the same cloth in terms of quality and character. And not one of them would feature in the first eleven.

There are some others who may yet reach that level - Nasri, Walcott, VanPersie, Wilshere, maybe Song, maybe Chamakh, .

But seriously - the gap in quality between now and that period of time is truly massive. Our three very best players now would make the Invincibles bench at best.

The only thing possibly more stunning that that is that no keeper from this team would make the squad ahead the backup keeper in 2004 Graham Stack who didn't play a single match that year in the Premiership.

[1989]

We have a team that has beaten, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Scum, Citeh.....and the rest.....THEY ARE CAPABLE.....today boiled down to the players not giving enough......today the only thing Wenger is to blame for is the fukin keeper

Disagree.

What about the shit tactics??! Playing Eboue on the wing for a start...

I have doubts about his man-management skills as well, when he can't get the players motivated for an important league game at home, especially when the direct rivals have dropped points.

I can't understand how these players never seem to learn from their mistakes. They're either incredibly thick, or incredibly unprofessional. Or both.

[I Hate Hleb]

Like you said we aren't Blackpool, but...

I was thinking about who from this year's squad could actually have played for Arsenal in the 2004 season, and excluding Gael Clichy who was in that team, I came up with exactly three - Fabregas, Arshavin and Vermaelen. Those - in my opinion - are the only players in this team genuinely cut from the same cloth in terms of quality and character. And not one of them would feature in the first eleven.

There are some others who may yet reach that level - Nasri, Walcott, VanPersie, Wilshere, maybe Song, maybe Chamakh, .

But seriously - the gap in quality between now and that period of time is truly massive. Our three very best players now would make the Invincibles bench at best.

The only thing possibly more stunning that that is that no keeper from this team would make the squad ahead the backup keeper in 2004 Graham Stack who didn't play a single match that year in the Premiership.

Well if you're going to judge every one by the 'Invincibles' criteria then obviously they're going to come up short (both metaphorically and literally!!).

I could just as easily say ask how many players from recent Man United sides would have got into their Treble winning team or indeed any of the United squads from the mid-90's through to the early noughties. You would struggle to name anyone bar probably Ronaldo and Rooney. Yet they have still managed to win 3 titles, a couple of domestic cups and the European Cup in the past 4 years.

The difference at the very highest level is minute, and we have come close over the past 3 or 4 years to winning something. Now imagine how much closer we might have been to success if the 5 - 10% improvement that a bit of work and organisation with the defence could have made; let alone the impact of having a better keeper.

You seriously telling me that it wouldn't make a significant difference? After all, it's not as if this squad is devoid of talent, with plenty of quality players and more than a dozen full Internationals in it.

So, as much as the Board may well be - and are - accountable for the lack of funds available to spend over the past few years, all the other decisions with regards formation, tactics, substitutions and to an extent player personnel (the type and size of the players bought, as well as the actual teams picked), comes back to one man, and that's Wenger.

[olgitgooner]

Denial Sid, they think that as long as they deny there are issues, all will turn out well. However, the facts of the last 5 years prove there most definitely are issues and the responsibility all rests with one arrogant, stubborn man - Arsene Wenger.

Could say that of those who beieve the situation will change if the Board doesn't choose to change it - even with a new manager.

What will you say if the new manager is Tony Adams and he starts on why we shouldn't spend more than we are or simply doesn't spend more than we are even if he talks the talk?

HIJACK ALERT

HIJACK ALERT

HIJACK ALERT

[augie]

We have a team that has beaten, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Scum, Citeh.....and the rest.....THEY ARE CAPABLE.....today boiled down to the players not giving enough......today the only thing Wenger is to blame for is the fukin keeper

1. When was the last time we beat the chavs ?

2. When was the last time we beat manure ?

3. When was the last time we beat victims fc ?

How many of our current players playing in the above games ? We have a team that turns to shit in the top games and now appear unable to be arsed to play against the lower teams so where does that leave us ?