Squeaky Bum time in the Old Trafford boardroom (16/1)

[Cus Geezer]

Cus:

You betray yourself.

I believe you opened the door to your forum by having a comparative article between United and Arsenal.

Are you under the mistaken believe that I write for the Gooner because I certainly didn't open the door to any of your ilk pal. It's funny because we don't get this with Spurs or Chavski fans, it's only Man Ure that invade the board of a team they don't support every so often, is this the sort of thing you resort to when you have no friends or sex life?

Ray Wilkins? Who? Didn't he used to be a Sky pundit?

Why am I not surprised?

Fergie did buy players in '89, but equally he also went round to a 14-year-old's mum's house to ensure the signing of a local talent. Kid by the name of Giggs. He remains loyal to the club. A concept Arsenal supporters may not be familiar with now.

Around the same time the like of Russell Beardsmore and Lee Martin got absolutely nowhere with the like of Neil Webb and Micky Phelan bought at a price.

The only reason you invested in English youth talent in the early 90s was because there was a restriction on the number of foreigners you could field in Europe, once it was dropped so was your youth policy and then you started throwing tens of millions of pounds at the like of Ferdinand and Rooney.

'79. Just after we were relegated but maintained our support

No you were relegated in '74, that's half a decade earlier. Like us beating you in the FA Cup Final was just after you refusing to enter it.

A generation after our youth team won the cup, the European Cup. Sorry? Did I lose you there?

'71. Before I was born. No idea what went on. Good record for Arsenal that year it seems. I'll see your double, match it, and raise you a treble.

You see you totally miss the point of supporting a club. It's not about the winning stuff, its about having a connection with it and going to the ground. You mention OT - yes nice ground, I've been there actually on the pitch you know!, I bet you've even been there, get back in your armchair.

Chelsea Arsenal's rivals? I thought that would be Tottenham? Cole went to a club who paid him more money. Arsenal and Chelsea aren't arch-rivals. It's like saying Blackburn and United are arch-rivals. It takes about the same time to get from one ground to the other. Are Leyton Orient also your "rival"?

You can have more than one rival - as you do with Leeds and Liverpool, though I suppose "local" rivalry means nowt to you as you live in Basildon.

It's strange that you seem to foam at the mouth rather than address some of the points raised about your club, especially the reliance you have on Wenger's tenure and almost total imported youth talent.

Too complex for you to think about? Maybe you don't foresee yourself supporting the club at that point in the future when this policy may matter?

It's funny that you spend so much time on a forum for club you don't support. We don't want you here pal - we're talking about you not to you.

True, Arsenal do play the beautiful game, but it wasn't always so. "1-0 to the Arsenal" was a George Graham-era classic. Even Liverpool lost their pass-and-move ethos under Houllier. ManU's style of play, maybe not as beautiful?, is still thrilling and dynamic and is tied to a HISTORICAL ethos at the club, which was taken up by Sir Alex and not initiated by him, unlike at Arsenal where Wenger's flowing approach to football was pushed by him.

Arsenal were actually the top scorers in the division for 3 years out of 4 between 1988 and 1992, the boring football came after 1992 - before Sky so you wouldn't have seen it. We played some good stuff in 1989, compared to you lot - I mean Rocky or Ralph Milne, Beardsmore or Merse?

Brady also gave you a footballing lesson in 1979.

I loved the wonderful football you played against Ipswich in 1981. My what history you have.

[ak111]

is this the sort of thing you resort to when you have no friends or sex life?

With the amount of stats (about a team you don't support) you have at your command, it would seem I should be asking this question to you.
Either way, I do not accept or reciprocate your advances.

When I say "you opened the door", I meant the plural "you", as in Arsenal supporters, not the singular you, as in you, Cus, you deranged egotist.

Ray "the crab" Wilkins was our club captain, so I know who he is, though I've never touched him, so I'm not sure in your confused world that means I really "know" him. Been to OT, never ran on the pitch, or bathed naked in their sumptuous baths. So does this mean I don't really support United?

Does pointing out the poor players who have played for the team mean anything at all? Baptista, anyone. Tony Adams, perhaps? Great servant to the club, but also a big donkey.

The only reason you invested in English youth talent in the early 90s was because there was a restriction on the number of foreigners you could field

Don't be silly. United have a great youth development tradition. We've won the FA Youth Cup more than any other team. Fergie has continued the club tradition. Wenger has started his own tradition. The best teenagers recruited not from London, or England, but around Europe and Africa. The way forward economically? Visionary? Still not great, is it?

throwing tens of millions of pounds at the like of Ferdinand and Rooney.

Fergie has recruited British players to enhance the local talent, along with imported stars or emerging talents. It's great. I'm lucky that my team (I'm from near Newton Heath, where the club actually started from) is able to do that. It's exciting. The market drives the price, nothing else. It's the players Fergie goes for, the personalities. Wenger tends to go for types - a type of player who is adaptable, quick, good first touch, athletic. This is why I don't see how a team full of such players could succeed without him.

You see you totally miss the point of supporting a club. It's not about the winning stuff, its about having a connection with it .

Connection? Like knowing about its history. Growing up in the area. Having an opinion on its fortunes. Would you insult all those Arsenal fans who haven't been to the Emirates as pseudo-fans? You're a cliche.

You can have more than one rival

I never said you couldn't have more than one rival. The question for me is what, exactly, is your rivalry with Chelsea based on, historically? Just the fact they are a London team don't cut it. I'm speculating, but is it that they have been a bit good, better than your lot, when your "Invincibles" should have dominated for years but didn't? Mourinho knocked you off your beautiful pedastal. Then Fergie built another young, dynamic team to eclipse Arsenal. Now, you have to cling to the youth of the Arsenal side, but what you really mean is immaturity, in that they haven't won anything... yet. United's team is young as well, though most of them are champions.

It's funny that you spend so much time on a forum for club you don't support.

The reason being that I'm genuinely interested in football, as you yourself must be with the insecure way you keep littering your responses with football stats. I thought that it may be interesting to find out what fans with a keen tactical eye might think about the future prospects of their team if their manager was no longer in charge. And the fact no-one has offered an opinion how the team would play without Wenger just increases my conviction that Arsenal will struggle without him, even more so than United would without Fergie.

Brady also gave you a footballing lesson in 1979.

Like the lesson Giggs gave Viera (where is he now, surely a player of his calibre should still be playing, loyally, for some club) and then the rest of the Arsenal defence in '99?

[/quote]

[Cus Geezer]

I'm not even gonna bother entertaining cherry boy any further because I'm here to talk to Arsenal fans.

If you did come here solely for an answer to that question if we would struggle after Wenger, well maybe, but then we didn't struggle after Graham who was our most successful manager at the time of his sacking.

United before Fergie were far less successful than Arsenal before Wenger.

As for Tony Adams being a donkey - well do explain why Fergie was after him in 1994 when it was rumoured he may leave Arsenal. He also looked like a racehorse in comparison to Pallister - Wrighty making him his bitch in the first match of the 1990 Cup Final still makes me laugh today.

Now matey boy - it's friday, if you can't pull stump up the cash for a visit to the knocking shop and stop bothering other clubs fans on a forum that doesn't even want you here. [/quote]

[ak111]

Fergie was after him in 1994 when it was rumoured he may leave Arsenal.

Not likely.

well maybe

Good answer. Informative, well thought out, exhaustive. It is a mind worthy of Mensa.

Wrighty was class, granted. But didn't United win that cup final?

Now matey boy - it's friday, if you can't pull stump up the cash for a visit to the knocking shop

Couldn't I just visit your mum?

[Wayno]

ak111, firstly welcome to our forum, you maybe a supporter of another club but you are still welcome, just please prove to be an arsehole like so many of your fellow united supporters. As for Fergie wanting to sign Adams, this is true and widely documented. Lets face it, he was an outstanding player and who can blame Old red nose him for wanting him at OT.

[South-African-Gooner]

Hi Cus - im new to any forums let alone The Gooners Fan Forum but I just want to say you guys are really hectic (in a good way) - the names,history and landmarks you use in your posts are mind blowing. I love Arsenal and I hope to continue the love for the club in my daughter and hopefully sons in the future. RSA are full of maure followers and dont get me started on chelsea who bought there silverware - there fans have no leg to stand on.

I was trying to follow the posts of you and manure dude and trying to understand why his need to know how we would feel if Wenger left , and his reasoning for saying that Wenger created the team to play his game so if he left the team would be useless.

Surely he cant think that they are better off than we are if both managers left - Ferguson=great tactics but what else , Wenger=Genius

Man U with same team & different manager - u think they will be the same - I really doubt it. After 2 decades of fergie manure needs him because thats all the know.

I dont have a football encyclopedia for a brain but that much is surely a concern to manure fans - why bother with Arsenal & our politics - we will survive and get stronger - with or without Wenger.

Wasent it said that we would crumble after Henry left - what happened - we got better.

Look at the spuds - tipped to knock Arsenal to 5th after big spending - what a joke. I say only reason chelsea got anywhere is because the league was so shell shocked with what had happened - but now what - they just another top club fighting for top honours - hardly a super power in EPL.

Sorry got off topic there I think.

Point is that Arsenal will always be a top club regardless on who the manager is - and the reason is that everyone from the top to the bottom believes in and loves Arsenal unconditionally - not only when they win.

[Cus Geezer]

Good answer. Informative, well thought out, exhaustive. It is a mind worthy of Mensa.

yeah as is this......

Couldn't I just visit your mum?

So tell me AK111, are you going on to sixth form when you finish school?

oh and as for your claim that a change of manager would lead to an Arsenal collapse

Arsenal managers who have won the league:

Herbert Chapman
Joe Shaw
George Allison
Tom Whittaker
Bertie Mee
George Graham
Arsene Wenger

Gaps between change of manager and next title:

Jan-May 1933
1933-1934
1947-1948
1956-1971
1976-1989
1995-1998

Longest gap: 15 years
shortest gap: 4 months

Man Ure managers who have won the league:

Ernest Mangnall
Matt Busby
Alex Ferguson

Gaps between change of manager and next title

1912-1952
1969-1993

longest gap: 40 years
shortest gap: 24 years

Perhaps if you want to reach a standard worthy of a mensa candidate try using emperical evidence to back up your argument, it might come in handy when you go to big school.

[ak111]

if you want to reach a standard worthy of a mensa candidate try using emperical evidence

Do you mean empirical evidence? Like the philosophy espoused by the logical positivists like Russell. The chicken, based on empirical evidence, believes the farmer will come to feed it, as he had always done before, on that same fateful day the farmer wrings its neck.

Cus, I reckon if people followed the train of this thread, they would conclude that it is you who has a mental age closer to a teenager.

Despite overt prompting, you still haven't grasped the simple fact that all you need do is engage in speculation about the future of Arsenal after Wenger, and especially the absolute certainty that Arsenal's style of the play will change because of Wenger's unique influence. As you pointed out only two managers in the modern era have won titles for United and Fergie, in effect, replicated Busby's style and method of success.

Tony Adams, I repeat, great servant to Arsenal, and England, but footballer of skill and elan he was not. That's not to say he wasn't an effective defender because he was, but would he get into Arsene Wenger's side now? A young Tony Adams would go the same way as a young Upson - out the door. To be fair, I prefer Toure as a player, but, if I was a fan of a club, you'd be honour bound to defend the charismatic effect of a player like Adams, though not his abilities. This is just to qualify my assessment of Adams and mitigate the notion that I'm a fan from another club who has denigrated the integrity of your forum. I will let Cus do that for you. He does such an admirable job.

And I will let him have the last word. It may console him for having so little else.

Adieu

[I Hate Hleb]

IT'S TRUE THAT MOST ARSENAL FANS WERE WORRIED IN THE SUMMER - WHEN THE QUESTION OF WHETHER WENGER WOULD SIGN A NEW CONTRACT OR NOT WAS BEING SPECULATED ON IN THE MEDIA - PRECISELY BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT ARSENAL HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE TO HAVE SUCH A GREAT MANAGER FOR SO LONG, AND REPLACING HIM SUCCESSFULLY WILL BE A VERY DIFFICULT TASK.

I DO THINK THAT ARSENE WENGER HAS NOW ESTABLISHED AN ETHOS FOR PLAYING GOOD FOOTBALL AT ARSENAL, AND WHOEVER SUCCEEDS HIM WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO ADHERE TO IT TO SATISFY THE SUPPORTERS.

HOWEVER, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF ANYONE CAN DO THAT WHILST STILL CHALLENGING FOR TROPHIES. IT WILL ALSO BE INTRIGUING TO SEE WHAT THE REACTION OF FANS WOULD BE TO A PROLONGED SPELL WITHOUT SUCCESS. WILL THEY CLAMOUR FOR A RETURN TO A GEORGE GRAHAM (CIRCA 1992-95) TYPE STYLE OF PLAY IN ORDER TO WIN THINGS AGAIN?

THE TRUTH IS NO-ONE KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS IN STORE FOR EITHER OF US WHEN FERGIE AND ARSENE EVENTUALLY RETIRE. BOTH MAN UTD AND ARSENAL HAVE BEEN FORTUNATE TO HAVE GREAT MANAGERS IN CHARGE OF THEIR CLUBS FOR SUCH A LONG PERIOD AND THE PRESSURE ON FUTURE BOSSESS TO MATCH THEIR ACHIEVEMENTS WILL BE IMMENSE.

AS FOR ADAMS, I THINK YOU'VE MADE THE MISTAKE OF SWALLOWING THE MEDIA LINE ON HIS ABILITY, OR YOU'RE MAKING JUDGEMENTS ON A FEW EDITED HIGHLIGHTS. ANYONE WHO HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF WATCHING HIM WEEK IN, WEEK OUT FOR THE MANY YEARS HE WAS AT ARSENAL WOULD KNOW HE WAS A GREAT DEFENDER AND LEADER, AND NOT ONLY FOR HIS CLUB ( REMEMBER EURO 1996).

SO TO YOUR QUESTION: IF YOU HAD A POLL OF ARSENAL FANS AS TO WHETHER HE WOULD GET INTO THIS CURRENT TEAM, I SUSPECT THAT THE ANSWER WOULD BE A RESOUNDING YES. HE WOULD GET IN TODAYS TEAM BECAUSE HE WAS THE BEST OUT AND OUT DEFENDER AND CAPTAIN OF HIS GENERATION.

[I Hate Hleb]

SORRY, DOUBLE POST.

[Cus Geezer]

Ray "the crab" Wilkins was our club captain, so I know who he is

Really?

According to this McIlroy and then Robson was the official captain throughout his time there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester ... b_captains

but would he get into Arsene Wenger's side now?

No you're right he'll lose out to the skill and class of Phillipe Senderos