Look, everything isn't perfect in wengerland but

[Number 5]

Still don't mean shit in my eyes if we do win it.

Why not? - we're all Arsenal fans, it's a trophy and a Wembley cup final... how can than not mean shit? I've always loved cup finals... especially when we win!

I know we're all a little high and mighty these days because of the glory years that Wenger brought us, but some of my fondest memories are of our cup runs and successes in the early-mid ninties (Coca Cola & FA Cup vs. Sheff Wed. in '93, Parma in '94, and even Zaragoza in '95) - I loved these competitions, and I stilll do. Yes, we've been spoilt rotten with Premier League titles, an unbeaten season and endless Champions League campaigns, but I think it's a little sad to look down our nose at something that probably ALL teams in the football leagues other than maybe 3 or 4 clubs would be delighted with.

Over the history of our great club, our glory years have only ever been fleeting - so maybe we should get of our high horse and cherish these competitions.... yes, even the Carling Cup!

Mainly because football as a whole has devalued that particular trophy so much over the years that it means little more to me personally than the Emirates Cup.

You are wrong about being high and mighty and the glory years. I recall all the finals you mention and having huge family gatherings watching them all. The League Cup is just the forgotten trophy of football, over the years many many more teams than Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea have put out weaker squads as they fight for survival.

Lets go down to the Championship, can you tell me one club down there who would rather their team made the League Cup final or the Play Off final? See, even down that low the priorities have shifted.

If we get to the final I’ll watch it, of course, and if we win I’ll be happy. But then I’ll get on with the rest of my day. Pop down IKEA buy some furniture and have a spot of lunch, they do hot dogs for 50p.

Days gone by a Cup final would have been an all dayer, and even the FA Cup is heading down a similar route for me.

[Number 5]

Makes you wonder how many domestic cups we could have won if Mr Knows had taken them seriousley in the past.Strange that after 5 years without a trophy he now takes the CC seriousley.

Well yeah obviously.... The pressure on him has increased massively from both the media and fans so he does now have to take the competition seriously. Back when we were winning the Premiership and FA Cup he could afford not to go for the CC. It seems obvious that now fans are getting on his back for 5 trophyless seasons that he'll actually try and win one.

Don't really agree with either of these.

Our record for this particular trophy is really very good.

Even when he hasn't been putting out the first XI over the years, we've had what, a final and two semi finals?

We'd do well to match that if he commited to the cup every year for the next 5 years with the main squad.

Still don't mean shit in my eyes if we do win it.

What's not to agree? It's painfully obvious stuff.

Wenger has come under pressure from all angles for not winning a trophy for 5 seasons, right?

Fans are now calling for him to be sacked/resign because of this, correct?

So, in an effort to actually win a trophy he is now fielding stronger teams in the CC than before, correct?

I really can't see what you're disagreeing with there.

Ok try this brah,

With a lackadaisical attitude to the carling cup over the last five years, Wenger has made final once and the semi finals twice.

I believe that even by going all out to win this trophy with the main first XI he would be hard pressed to match this over another 5 years.

Our record in this comp is as good as it’s been for the last 5 years.

This mother fucker would be more impressed with Wenger’s effort to win a trophy after 5 years if he dropped the necesaary ker-ching that would enable us to have a credible assault on the trophies that actually mean something. Even if we didn’t win them, I’d be more able to get behind him knowing he had done all he could.

[Boomer]

Can we please wait until we get to final before the talk of it?

This surely is our best chance given that the Mancs went out last night. We must now be favourites and over two legs we can beat any of those still in the comp.
However, we've been in this position before and fucked up so I'll wait until the ref blows-up after the 2nd leg before talk of Wembley.

[MM99]

Makes you wonder how many domestic cups we could have won if Mr Knows had taken them seriousley in the past.Strange that after 5 years without a trophy he now takes the CC seriousley.

Well yeah obviously.... The pressure on him has increased massively from both the media and fans so he does now have to take the competition seriously. Back when we were winning the Premiership and FA Cup he could afford not to go for the CC. It seems obvious that now fans are getting on his back for 5 trophyless seasons that he'll actually try and win one.

So how come both Man Utd and Chelsea have won the CC as well as winning the premiership.Success breeds success

Because they have not won the FA Cup, or the CL in those years at the same time, trophies which Wenger prioritises more than the CC. I'm sure if Wenger had decided not to go for the CL or the FA Cup, and fielded a full strength team in the CC that we would have won it at least once in the past 5 seasons.

2006 - Chelsea win the PL, Liverpool win the FA cup, United the CC
2007 - United win the PL, Chelsea the FA cup, Chelsea the CC
2008 - United win the PL, Porstmouth the FA cup, Spurs the CC
2009 - United win the PL, Chelsea the FA cup, United the CC
2010 - Chelsea win the PL and FA cup, United the CC.

So looking at that, other than in 2009, there has not been an instance where the winner of the CC has also gone on to win the Premiership so when you say "So how come both Man Utd and Chelsea have won the CC as well as winning the premiership", it isn't actually true. It appears that both Utd and Chelsea do a bit of prioritising, choosing to concentrate on the league fully, and when doing so are prepared to give up the domestic trophies, as can be seen above where, in winning the PL, another has won the FA Cup or CC.

[MM99]

With a lackadaisical attitude to the carling cup over the last five years, Wenger has made final once and the semi finals twice.

But he hasn't actually won it.

I believe that even by going all out to win this trophy with the main first XI he would be hard pressed to match this over another 5 years.

Cool. Not sure what point you're making and how it relates to what i've said, but cool nonetheless.

Our record in this comp is as good as it’s been for the last 5 years.

Apart from this time we are taking it much more seriously, evident in the first team players that have taken part in this, and signals real intent to try and win it.

This mother fucker would be more impressed with Wenger’s effort to win a trophy after 5 years if he dropped the necesaary ker-ching that would enable us to have a credible assault on the trophies that actually mean something. Even if we didn’t win them, I’d be more able to get behind him knowing he had done all he could.

To be honest i agree with that, but i have no idea why you're talking about that as it has nothing to do with what i had been talking about in my earlier posts? Seems as though we're both thinking and talking about two completely different things here.

[Number 5]

But he hasn't actually won it.

Cool. Not sure what point you're making and how it relates to what i've said, but cool nonetheless.

Apart from this time we are taking it much more seriously, evident in the first team players that have taken part in this, and signals real intent to try and win it.

I guess my main point is that trying to win it/not trying to win it, has up to this point today, yielded pretty much the same result. I’m not plussed by the strength of the sides we have been putting out.

To be honest i agree with that, but i have no idea why you're talking about that as it has nothing to do with what i had been talking about in my earlier posts? Seems as though we're both thinking and talking about two completely different things here.

It comes from here

Wenger has come under pressure from all angles for not winning a trophy for 5 seasons, right?

Fans are now calling for him to be sacked/resign because of this, correct?

So, in an effort to actually win a trophy he is now fielding stronger teams in the CC than before, correct?

A trophy. Could be any trophy right? So why not do the necessary to make it a good un?

[MM99]

I guess my main point is that trying to win it/not trying to win it, has up to this point today, yielded pretty much the same result. I’m not plussed by the strength of the sides we have been putting out.

Ahhh ok, i get what you're saying now. Well to be honest we don't know yet do we as if we go on to win it then obviously it's not yielding the same results as we've won the damn thing. If we were to fall in the semi's again then yeah i would say we've really done no better than before.
However, there is one key difference this season that has been missing from the past few, and that is the players that have played in the CC in the past few season compared to this seaon.

This was the team fielded against City last season:
Lukasz Fabianski
Gavin Hoyte
Mikael Silvestre
Paul Rodgers (46)
Kieran Gibbs
Jack Wilshere (63)
Mark Randall (72)
Fran Merida
Aaron Ramsey
Nicklas Bendtner
Carlos Vela
* Substitutes
Vito Mannone
Amaury Bischoff
(72)
Francis Coquelin
Henri Lansbury
(46)
Jay Simpson
(63)
Rene Steer
Emmanuel Frimpong

Now compare this to last nights game and the team put out there:

Szchezney
Eboue
Djourou
Koscielney
Gibbs
Walcott
Wilshere
Denilson
Vela
Van Persie
Bendtner

And our subs being:
Arshavin
Sagna
Nasri
JET
Craig Eastmond
Shea
Nordtveidt

A much stronger team that has many of our first team regulars, and a strong bench of Arshavin, Nasri, Sagna, as opposed to past years where we would have the likes of Steer, Coquelin, Lansbury etc... being our bench.

A trophy. Could be any trophy right? So why not do the necessary to make it a good un?

I see where you're coming from. I guess because this is our best chance of winning something as it is undoubtedly much easier to win that the PL or the CL. Perhaps once we have won the CC, the players then get a taste for success and takes some of the pressure off them and thus make it easier to go for the bigger prizes. I think deep down we are all hoping that CC success would lay down the platform for this to happen and maybe that is why Wenger is now taking it much more seriously, to relieve some of the pressure off both him and the team, and to make them then seriously challenge for other trophies.

[marcengels]

The squad is getting stonger from bottom up, but weaker from the top down. We have many of roughly the same level, that trying to distinguish between top, top quality and carling cup squad is becoming harder than in any recent seasons.

[augie]

Wenger, and mainly wenger alone, has devalued this competition to the level of the leyland daf/autowindscreen level so how can we now proclaim the importance of this cup as significant ? Fact is that a lot of fans are overstating the importance of winning this when they imply that this could make the difference in winning leagues cos of any new found confidence - confidence/arrogance does not and will not make up for the weaknesses we have at centre back and DM and possibly the keepers position nor will it mask the lack of physicality and passion/commitment in our team

Even though winning this cup would not make a huge difference to me I would still enjoy it slightly more if we were not using the likes of cesc, nasri or rvp in any of these games. Personally I would like to utilise these games to play the likes of jet and eastmond more and I fully supported wenger's use of this competition for that purpose over the last few years even though it was at the detriment of any potential success in the beer cup.

Again I will make the point that I do not want wenger sacked cos of any lack of silverware but rather cos he has badly lost his way to the point that he thinks diaby, denilson and eboue are good enough and that we also dont need any new signings - winning this cup will not change that

[rigsby]

Top managers know its important to win that first trophy. Imagine if we're still in for the title come Febuary and we were to win this competition? The team would get such a buzz, the pressure wouldn't be as great, and they'ld have the belief in themselves.

This competition is VITAL in my eyes. Teams have to get into the winning mentality. As for it being devalued? Well so has the FA Cup you still want to win it. Sure its not the biggest trophy, but its clearly worth more than the fucking emirates cup.

Our squad is a lot better this year, the 'reserves' are now all around the first team, that is the only reason the teams seems stronger.

Anyway lets win everything

[augie]

Top managers know its important to win that first trophy. Imagine if we're still in for the title come Febuary and we were to win this competition? The team would get such a buzz, the pressure wouldn't be as great, and they'ld have the belief in themselves.

This competition is VITAL in my eyes. Teams have to get into the winning mentality. As for it being devalued? Well so has the FA Cup you still want to win it. Sure its not the biggest trophy, but its clearly worth more than the fucking emirates cup.

Our squad is a lot better this year, the 'reserves' are now all around the first team, that is the only reason the teams seems stronger.

Anyway lets win everything

I do get what you are saying but a couple of quick questions for you -

1. Do you really believe that winning this cup will give the likes of cesc, arshavin, clichy and rvp a real buzz ? I honestly think that these players have loftier expectations than this and I would be surprised if anybody thinks otherwise and believes that winning it will lift them to new heights Saying that I do agree that winning it would def mean a lot to the likes of gibbs, chesney and jet for example but you have to remember that a lot of the other players are established internationals who would look at wenger's stance in the past and probably not value winning it as highly as some fans do.

2. You say that the squad is a lot better than it was last season and I am curious to know why you feel that way Up until the last few games I would suggest that our goalkeeping situation has been an even bigger mess than last season, our centre backs options have been weakened by the loss of 2 experienced winners in sol and gallas (though I support the exit of gallas) and have seen us buy a very inexperienced 25 year old and a 30 yr old squad man who makes senderos look like usain bolt Our DM options still begin and end with song and we still have no 20 league goals a season striker as we continue to depend on a very very injury prone striker So considering all that how exactly is the squad stronger ??

[donaldo]

This competition is VITAL in my eyes. Teams have to get into the winning mentality.

Exactly,so why when we got to the cc final in 2007 and Fa cup semi in 2009 did Wenger not field full strength teams(leaving out the player in form Arshavin ) against Chelsea's strongest eleven.He showed contempt for both competions.

[DB10GOONER]

Fact is that a lot of fans are overstating the importance of winning this when they imply that this could make the difference in winning leagues cos of any new found confidence - confidence/arrogance does not and will not make up for the weaknesses we have at centre back and DM and possibly the keepers position nor will it mask the lack of physicality and passion/commitment in our team

Sometimes you only read what you want to read, augie. I don't think anyone is saying that winning the CC will naturally mean us then going on to win the league or CL off it's own bat, without strengthening the team. That is self evident.

The point is though that alot of the players we are going to be "stuck" with in the immediate and mid term future haven't won anything, and don't have that winners mentality and hunger.

Thus if we were to win this meaningless cup, we would have a squad that has now gotten the taste for success and wants to win more prestigious trophies. In the ideal world, Wenger would then add the players we need (GK, DM and CH) to a team that has tasted success. Which is better than adding new players to a team stuck in the duldrums of having won nothing.

Having the taste of success doesn't guarantee more success but it certainly does help if you can instill that mindset into the players.

Of course this is all academic, if Wenger now believes (yet again) that we don't need strengthening...

[augie]

Fact is that a lot of fans are overstating the importance of winning this when they imply that this could make the difference in winning leagues cos of any new found confidence - confidence/arrogance does not and will not make up for the weaknesses we have at centre back and DM and possibly the keepers position nor will it mask the lack of physicality and passion/commitment in our team

Sometimes you only read what you want to read, augie. I don't think anyone is saying that winning the CC will naturally mean us then going on to win the league or CL off it's own bat, without strengthening the team. That is self evident.

The point is though that alot of the players we are going to be "stuck" with in the immediate and mid term future haven't won anything, and don't have that winners mentality and hunger.

Thus if we were to win this meaningless cup, we would have a squad that has now gotten the taste for success and wants to win more prestigious trophies. In the ideal world, Wenger would then add the players we need (GK, DM and CH) to a team that has tasted success. Which is better than adding new players to a team stuck in the duldrums of having won nothing.

Having the taste of success doesn't guarantee more success but it certainly does help if you can instill that mindset into the players.

Of course this is all academic, if Wenger now believes (yet again) that we don't need strengthening...

And therein lies the problem.......if I believed that the fool would strengthen then winning this comp may well have more importance but seeing as wenger see's beating a weakened wigan side is an indicator that he doesnt need new signings then I feel winning a much weakened competition like this will be the height of our acheivments Please dont tell me that wenger could well be blowing smoke up everybodies rase with those comments cos he has history of making such remarks and actually backing them up

[nexum5me]

the importance of winning the cc, for me, is A. so we've won something more recently than tottenham, and B. the x years without a trophy is reset to 0