Anti-Semitism is creeping back (28/1)
Ok so to sum up the findings of this long winded argument/discussion/debate/thing:
Holocaust chanting: Definitely wrong. Should be stopped.
Middle East: Fucked. This isn't the right place to argue about it.
The 'Y- Word': Use it if you want, its been around a long time and won't go away. Keep in mind though that some non-football fans may find it offensive.
Correct??
Holocaust chanting: Definitely wrong. Should be stopped.
Middle East: Fucked. This isn't the right place to argue about it.
The 'Y- Word': Use it if you want, its been around a long time and won't go away. Keep in mind though that some non-football fans may find it offensive.
Correct??
- Red Gunner
- Posts: 5778
- Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:25 pm
- Location: London
Well, have you heard of Dubai? It was alright until Holocaust happened and Zionists invaded Palestine. It has much safer streets than the glorious land of USA.RaM wrote:Middle East: Fucked. This isn't the right place to argue about it.
Correct??
You know what’s f’ed up beyond repair? English language in Australia. Let’s go surfing, dude. I am going to hang out at the mall, dude. Dude, this isn’t cool. Your country and USA have technically raped a great language. I know I am probably wrong about the language but that’s how you lot sound on TV. Crikey

That’s a cute idea. You know, the Middle East is quite big and is big enough for Jews and Palestinians. That reminds me, I’ve got to go to my old house and tell the current fair tenants that I want to live there. I am sure there’s enough space for meThere is plenty of room for al lJews and Palestinians in the Middle East, and plenty of money to make it happen. If the Arab staes gave their oil money to desert irrigation, sanitaion and transport projects then there would be no need to live in crowded Gaza.

I never said it, show me proofSo are you saying its ok to hate all jews just because some jews have done bad things.

Well, did they invade countries with unregistered weapons and killed people?Should we hate all muslims just because of the actions of iraq, syria and iran (not exactly pleasant regimes either).
What’s democracy? Oh yeah, it is that thing Bush used to invade Iraq to get umm some nuclear weapons off Saddam. Successful, eh? Iraq is reaping the rewards of democracy, aren’t they? Trust me, the Arabian countries have heard of it; when democracy comes to an Arabian country, it means the pure government of USA will elect it, not the public.Israel is a democracy but that word does not exist elsewhere in the arab world.
I agreeI still say we should not encourage racism at Arsenal with words like ****, Paki, Nigger or towelhead

-
- Posts: 1869
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:09 pm
Khalid - not that I don't agree with a few points you've made, but the thread is in danger of going wildly off topic.
Lethal Prodigy - Are you trying to imply that Golf clubs are inclusive places with an over-sensitivity to offending ethnic minorities? I think you'll wanna think that one over a bit for a while.
As for it being here a long while therefore it's ok and must be accepted - well for a long time it was ok to say Paki and Nigger on British telly.
It also used to be legal for men to have sex with 13 year olds until the victorians brought in an age of consent.
It used to be legal for a man to hit his wife with a stick as long as it wasn't bigger than his own thumb.
It used to be legal for a man to force his estranged but not divroced wife into sex without her consent without it being rape (as recently as 1991).
So should those who were active in changing the above merely have shrugged their shoulders and said 'well it's always been like that hasn't it'
Lethal Prodigy - Are you trying to imply that Golf clubs are inclusive places with an over-sensitivity to offending ethnic minorities? I think you'll wanna think that one over a bit for a while.
Firstly you'll wanna remind yourself that a fair number of football fans also find it offensive. After all it's not a footballing term - the day I hear Gary Lineker and Alan Hansen say it on MOTD is the day I'll be proved wrong in that assessment, it's merely a racist word that has crept into football.The 'Y- Word': Use it if you want, its been around a long time and won't go away. Keep in mind though that some non-football fans may find it offensive.
As for it being here a long while therefore it's ok and must be accepted - well for a long time it was ok to say Paki and Nigger on British telly.
It also used to be legal for men to have sex with 13 year olds until the victorians brought in an age of consent.
It used to be legal for a man to hit his wife with a stick as long as it wasn't bigger than his own thumb.
It used to be legal for a man to force his estranged but not divroced wife into sex without her consent without it being rape (as recently as 1991).
So should those who were active in changing the above merely have shrugged their shoulders and said 'well it's always been like that hasn't it'
You can't compare a word with all of those things Cus, I think your over zealous approach to racism issues is clouding your judgement a little bit here.
Each of those things involve a physical abuse in some form. This however, is only a word being used ON A FORUM!!!
Not only will you be ridiculed beyond any hope of keeping your dignity if heard using the word dude over here, but if you use the word mall you'll have people thinking you're just a little bit weird. You must be confusing it with the USA....
And crikey? The only person I've heard use that is now dead.
So khalid, the lesson from this??
1. Television is not something you should learn from.
2. The USA is also fucked.

Each of those things involve a physical abuse in some form. This however, is only a word being used ON A FORUM!!!
Do you know what an Australian is?You know what’s f’ed up beyond repair? English language in Australia. Let’s go surfing, dude. I am going to hang out at the mall, dude. Dude, this isn’t cool. Your country and USA have technically raped a great language. I know I am probably wrong about the language but that’s how you lot sound on TV. Crikey

Not only will you be ridiculed beyond any hope of keeping your dignity if heard using the word dude over here, but if you use the word mall you'll have people thinking you're just a little bit weird. You must be confusing it with the USA....
And crikey? The only person I've heard use that is now dead.
So khalid, the lesson from this??
1. Television is not something you should learn from.
2. The USA is also fucked.




Nothing new
Its good that a few of us are unhappy at such behaviour, and we should be commended for challenging these 'arseh*les'
I am aware of racism from when I went to Wembley-to see the Arsenal lose against Fiorentina/Barcelona champions league games back then. Some trashy kids/fans were calling for Kanu to be sent back to Nigeria, me and friend threathened them to stop and sure enough a few fans told them shut the f*ck up, at the start of the second half they had disappeared!
But I am aware of fans telling other 'arses' to shut it, have been intimidated/threatened- it will only go away if we do something about it.
So much for the ban on flags! eh! It shows that the establishment will do very little on the terraces as such. So its down to us once again
Educate, Agitate, Organise!
I am aware of racism from when I went to Wembley-to see the Arsenal lose against Fiorentina/Barcelona champions league games back then. Some trashy kids/fans were calling for Kanu to be sent back to Nigeria, me and friend threathened them to stop and sure enough a few fans told them shut the f*ck up, at the start of the second half they had disappeared!
But I am aware of fans telling other 'arses' to shut it, have been intimidated/threatened- it will only go away if we do something about it.
So much for the ban on flags! eh! It shows that the establishment will do very little on the terraces as such. So its down to us once again
Educate, Agitate, Organise!
- U.F.G Anfield '89
- Posts: 1712
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:26 pm
- Location: Royal Holloway University of London
this thread is dragging on a bit but i'd just like to add my angle on this whole thing.
First the Holocaust chanting is just fucking wrong, fortunately i've not experienced any of that first hand, if i did i would probably be unable to stop myself kicking off.
I miss pretty much every jewish stereotype, I LOVE pork and pretty much any pork based food, the only time i've been inside a synagogue is on a school trip, I even have a foreskin. However i am 1 quater jewish and have an obviously jewish sirname it is on this basis that i have been called the Y word on several occasions in school, i can tell you it was not in the form of light hearted banter.
I know that there are plenty of people who are not racist who use the word purely against spurs fans and when i hear it at football i tend not to say anything, this said it makes me personally feel very uncomfortable, if i'm honest physicaly sick and i would rather people not use it. I'm sure there are many others who keep quiet because they know no harm is intended, just because harm isn't intended it does not mean that no harm is done.
finally on the question of Israel, there is plenty of fighting over that issue going on else where, i'd rather not see fellow gooners fighting over matters of politics, let's keep our fighting to whether a particular player is shit or not.
peace out y'all!
First the Holocaust chanting is just fucking wrong, fortunately i've not experienced any of that first hand, if i did i would probably be unable to stop myself kicking off.
I miss pretty much every jewish stereotype, I LOVE pork and pretty much any pork based food, the only time i've been inside a synagogue is on a school trip, I even have a foreskin. However i am 1 quater jewish and have an obviously jewish sirname it is on this basis that i have been called the Y word on several occasions in school, i can tell you it was not in the form of light hearted banter.
I know that there are plenty of people who are not racist who use the word purely against spurs fans and when i hear it at football i tend not to say anything, this said it makes me personally feel very uncomfortable, if i'm honest physicaly sick and i would rather people not use it. I'm sure there are many others who keep quiet because they know no harm is intended, just because harm isn't intended it does not mean that no harm is done.
finally on the question of Israel, there is plenty of fighting over that issue going on else where, i'd rather not see fellow gooners fighting over matters of politics, let's keep our fighting to whether a particular player is shit or not.
peace out y'all!
I remember starting a similar thread some months back, but then it was simply about the use of the word ****. Now I see we've moved onto holocaust chants....what next?
30 years ago I can remember singing "gas 'em all..." along with a sizeable majority of the young gooners on the terraces (despite what Nick Hornby says!). I'm not proud of it. It must have been awful for the huge number of Jewish supporters that we have - but it seemed fairly tame at the time compared with monkey chants, NF skinheads and bananas being thrown onto the pitch.
But that was then and this is now (thank god!). What was acceptable (unfortunately) then just isn't acceptable now. I really would prefer it if people gave up on the term **** and everything associated with it!
30 years ago I can remember singing "gas 'em all..." along with a sizeable majority of the young gooners on the terraces (despite what Nick Hornby says!). I'm not proud of it. It must have been awful for the huge number of Jewish supporters that we have - but it seemed fairly tame at the time compared with monkey chants, NF skinheads and bananas being thrown onto the pitch.
But that was then and this is now (thank god!). What was acceptable (unfortunately) then just isn't acceptable now. I really would prefer it if people gave up on the term **** and everything associated with it!
Some people (like Lethal Prodigy) ridicule those who worry about whether the use of words like **** is offensive, but for me it's just about respect. We're not savages, there are limits. We all enjoy the passion of football matches and the chanting and shouting of ritualised abuse of players and opposing fans is part of that. But to use an extreme example, if we knew a player had, as a child, been a victim of abuse by a paedophile, I don't think football fans would sing about that. (If they did, I think we can agree, they would be utter scum, and deserve a good kicking or to be ejected from the ground, whichever happened first.) For me (and others, who are white, Asian, Jewish, black, Muslim etc) racist abuse is similarly unacceptable. In respect of the word ****, I don't expect it to disappear from Arsenal any time soon but I live in hope that it will happen in my lifetime.
It really is simple: racist abuse is unacceptable and **** is a racist term, whatever attempts are made by some (who frankly just don't understand the real meaning of the word) to say it's just an abreviation of the word yiddish or just refers to a religion. (For your information, the English courts have for almost 30 years considered discrimination against Jews to be racist (and therefore unlawful) discrimination.)
As for the "Sticks and stones may break my bones etc" argument, telling people who are the subject of racist abuse not to worry about it is pretty patronising. RaM, if you make it over to London to go to a match, let me know and I'll introduce you to my family to discuss what being on the receiving end of racist insults is actually like. I could also introduce you to plenty of Jews (including many who are Arsenal fans) who can tell you what it really feels like to be called a ****. Take my word for it, it isn't just a little thing. I don't know what Australian Jews think about the use of the term, but believe me (or DanielD or the other Jews who responded on this and earlier threads), most Jews in the UK really do find it deeply offensive, just as Asians are offended by Paki and black Britons by nigger.
And the England U21 players who were on the receiving end of pretty gross insults from Serbian fans and players last year were 100% right to get pissed off. I don't know your views (as an Australian) on the Andrew Symonds/Harbajan Singh saga in cricket, but whatever sledging Symonds gave out, Singh calling Symonds a monkey was disgusting and deserved much harder punishment than it got. Symonds and his team-mates were right to feel pissed off about it.
In the North London football context, I acknowledge the point rebel makes (which he has made in previous discussions on this issue) that the fact that Spurs fans call themselves **** and THFC appear to take no action on it makes the situation different, since using the word **** isn't really targeted at Jews at all. But just because some Spurs fans are thick enough to use racist terminology isn't a good reason to do the same. Yes, THFC, AFC and the authorities should work together to stamp out the use of **** etc but we shouldn't need to wait for those cowards to act for us to stop behaving in a racist way.
I feel strongly about this subject and would get pissed off about the use of racist abuse against anyone (whether intended to offend or not), even if there were no Jews at Ashburton Grove to hear the insults fly. But the fact that at any Arsenal game, hundreds, probably thousands of the Arsenal fans present (not to mention many visiting fans and neutrals) are Jewish means this is something that has a real impact on real people. As I've said on previous threads, why would Arsenal fans (intentionally or not) make fellow Gooners feel in the words of UFG Anfield 89) "physically sick" or (in the words of a colleague of mine, referring to games he went to as a kid) scared that other Arsenal fans would attack him if his Jewishness became known?
By the way, admirably candid post from MK Gould.
Final word: I was at the Lane for the Spurs game which prompted the Gooner article on this topic, and I have to say I didn't hear a single chant of anything relating to the holocaust, as claimed in the article. Friends who were also there say that they also didn't hear anything like that. In my opinion, there is a good chance that the article exaggarates what happened on the night. But anyone who sings anything about the holocaust deserves any punishment they get, they are fucking scum.
It really is simple: racist abuse is unacceptable and **** is a racist term, whatever attempts are made by some (who frankly just don't understand the real meaning of the word) to say it's just an abreviation of the word yiddish or just refers to a religion. (For your information, the English courts have for almost 30 years considered discrimination against Jews to be racist (and therefore unlawful) discrimination.)
As for the "Sticks and stones may break my bones etc" argument, telling people who are the subject of racist abuse not to worry about it is pretty patronising. RaM, if you make it over to London to go to a match, let me know and I'll introduce you to my family to discuss what being on the receiving end of racist insults is actually like. I could also introduce you to plenty of Jews (including many who are Arsenal fans) who can tell you what it really feels like to be called a ****. Take my word for it, it isn't just a little thing. I don't know what Australian Jews think about the use of the term, but believe me (or DanielD or the other Jews who responded on this and earlier threads), most Jews in the UK really do find it deeply offensive, just as Asians are offended by Paki and black Britons by nigger.
And the England U21 players who were on the receiving end of pretty gross insults from Serbian fans and players last year were 100% right to get pissed off. I don't know your views (as an Australian) on the Andrew Symonds/Harbajan Singh saga in cricket, but whatever sledging Symonds gave out, Singh calling Symonds a monkey was disgusting and deserved much harder punishment than it got. Symonds and his team-mates were right to feel pissed off about it.
In the North London football context, I acknowledge the point rebel makes (which he has made in previous discussions on this issue) that the fact that Spurs fans call themselves **** and THFC appear to take no action on it makes the situation different, since using the word **** isn't really targeted at Jews at all. But just because some Spurs fans are thick enough to use racist terminology isn't a good reason to do the same. Yes, THFC, AFC and the authorities should work together to stamp out the use of **** etc but we shouldn't need to wait for those cowards to act for us to stop behaving in a racist way.
I feel strongly about this subject and would get pissed off about the use of racist abuse against anyone (whether intended to offend or not), even if there were no Jews at Ashburton Grove to hear the insults fly. But the fact that at any Arsenal game, hundreds, probably thousands of the Arsenal fans present (not to mention many visiting fans and neutrals) are Jewish means this is something that has a real impact on real people. As I've said on previous threads, why would Arsenal fans (intentionally or not) make fellow Gooners feel in the words of UFG Anfield 89) "physically sick" or (in the words of a colleague of mine, referring to games he went to as a kid) scared that other Arsenal fans would attack him if his Jewishness became known?
By the way, admirably candid post from MK Gould.
Final word: I was at the Lane for the Spurs game which prompted the Gooner article on this topic, and I have to say I didn't hear a single chant of anything relating to the holocaust, as claimed in the article. Friends who were also there say that they also didn't hear anything like that. In my opinion, there is a good chance that the article exaggarates what happened on the night. But anyone who sings anything about the holocaust deserves any punishment they get, they are fucking scum.
-
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:20 pm
Well it's all been said on this topic this week but maybe I can add something that has not been said already.
It is true that when arsenal fans call spurs **** they are generally doing it because spurs fans call themselves the ****. As such there is probably no bad intentions at the outset. However in reality it ends up a bit worse than that because when the word "****" is acceptable it creeps into worse things. To take it up a notch you end up with songs about foreskins. I'm jewish and I don't mind **** but I sure as hell don't sing along to the foreskins songs
and they make me feel uncomfortable cos I know where they lead.
The guy that sits behind me is a top bloke, along with me and my brothers we sing loudly the whole game and try to get everyone else going. We swear more than we mean to (cos we're in the front row and the lino needs to be told) and I hope some of the dads near me explain to their sons that this is football and this stuff goes on. Now when spurs come this guy shouts "You f*cking **** c*nt". Well of course he does, how else do we use the word ****? "You silly **** rotters"? I think not. I put up with this cos I know he's looking to insult the scum but when he shouted the same thing at Avram Grant this season I wasn't happy. If he'd said it again we would have had words but he didn't, probably because he thought it through. Problem is why can he say it one week and not another? It creeps, it escalate until you have people singing about the gassing of jews, and I'll tell you what, that f*cking offends me and I'd let someone singing that know if I heard it. And to the guy what went on about grassing that's b0llocks, if someone feels physically intimidated at the game then this is not grassing cos that guy ain't your mate or a true gooner, he's a c*nt and you don't owe him sh1t.
So my point is it starts with **** c*nts, then there's a song about foreskins, then Avram Grant's a f*cking **** and then we're gassing jews. If you've been in the pub all the day the jump from one to the other doesn't seem all that big so maybe it's better not to start at all.
It is true that when arsenal fans call spurs **** they are generally doing it because spurs fans call themselves the ****. As such there is probably no bad intentions at the outset. However in reality it ends up a bit worse than that because when the word "****" is acceptable it creeps into worse things. To take it up a notch you end up with songs about foreskins. I'm jewish and I don't mind **** but I sure as hell don't sing along to the foreskins songs

The guy that sits behind me is a top bloke, along with me and my brothers we sing loudly the whole game and try to get everyone else going. We swear more than we mean to (cos we're in the front row and the lino needs to be told) and I hope some of the dads near me explain to their sons that this is football and this stuff goes on. Now when spurs come this guy shouts "You f*cking **** c*nt". Well of course he does, how else do we use the word ****? "You silly **** rotters"? I think not. I put up with this cos I know he's looking to insult the scum but when he shouted the same thing at Avram Grant this season I wasn't happy. If he'd said it again we would have had words but he didn't, probably because he thought it through. Problem is why can he say it one week and not another? It creeps, it escalate until you have people singing about the gassing of jews, and I'll tell you what, that f*cking offends me and I'd let someone singing that know if I heard it. And to the guy what went on about grassing that's b0llocks, if someone feels physically intimidated at the game then this is not grassing cos that guy ain't your mate or a true gooner, he's a c*nt and you don't owe him sh1t.
So my point is it starts with **** c*nts, then there's a song about foreskins, then Avram Grant's a f*cking **** and then we're gassing jews. If you've been in the pub all the day the jump from one to the other doesn't seem all that big so maybe it's better not to start at all.
-
- Posts: 1869
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:09 pm
I think you've missed the point there - they are all things that are morally wrong, yet were only considered so in relatively recent years and were not considered a form of abuse. If people were apathetic towards them then because they had been prevailant for so long they wouldn't have acquired the status of being legally wrong.You can't compare a word with all of those things Cus, I think your over zealous approach to racism issues is clouding your judgement a little bit here.
Each of those things involve a physical abuse in some form. This however, is only a word being used ON A FORUM!!!
And as for factors clouding judgement - well maybe the fact that your still in your teens and may well lack a lot of life experience accounts for the fact that you think the reasoning of a nursery rhyme can be considered an antidote to complex social problems.
That and living in a country which many social observers consider to be about two decades behind the UK on such issues.
That and living in a country which many social observers consider to be about two decades behind the UK on such issues.
Now, you see, I could cry racism and have a whinge about something like that for example, but I am thankfully not the sort of person to find a trivial opinion or usage of a word to be the most horribly grotesque thing imaginable.

That, would be something more likely seen from a pink cat.
That's right, RaM, Cus's dig at Oz is exactly the same as calling a Jew a ****. Enjoy the school retreat though!RaM wrote:That and living in a country which many social observers consider to be about two decades behind the UK on such issues.
Now, you see, I could cry racism and have a whinge about something like that for example, but I am thankfully not the sort of person to find a trivial opinion or usage of a word to be the most horribly grotesque thing imaginable.![]()
- gooner.ed
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3458
- Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 3:05 pm
- Location: Scotland Yard's 10 Most Wanted List
26may1989 wrote: Final word: I was at the Lane for the Spurs game which prompted the Gooner article on this topic, and I have to say I didn't hear a single chant of anything relating to the holocaust, as claimed in the article. Friends who were also there say that they also didn't hear anything like that. In my opinion, there is a good chance that the article exaggarates what happened on the night. But anyone who sings anything about the holocaust deserves any punishment they get, they are fucking scum.
well i have known the guy who relayed this to me for a while and i wouldn't have given his account of events unless i had 100% confidence in his integrity.
my guess is that maybe small pockets of fans were doing this. hopefully that will mean that it is that much easier to stamp out through pressure of numbers of decent minded supporters.
but also remember that this also occurred at barnet at the start of the season, so the editorial i posted was as a result of a fear that if something wasn't said, merely ignoring this vile sickness would allow it to spread. i hope that it wasn't heard by the majority of fans and that in the future no-one at all has to hear this sh*t.