The Y-Word

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Deise Gooner
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Post by Deise Gooner »

Bergkamp-Genius wrote:I'm sorry Deise i don't agree....
Just because some in a minority or group use words used to abuse them to refer to themselves or theirs in a friendly way....that does not justify others from outside of that group using those words.
The history of these words when used by outsiders has been to abuse and that is how it is predominantly viewed by those on the end of it, so that is how it should be viewed by anyone from outside of the group using it or listening to others using it...just because some on the end of it say they don't mind that doesn't make it OK...

I suppose the way to assess how OK you think it is to use these words is to think if your own child happened to be, for instance black or pakistani due to your partner being so...would you keep calling him/her n***** or p*** throughout his/her childhood kidding yourself it was all a bit of fun.....only if there was something seriously wrong with you...

As for the Spurs thing my guess is the vast majority of Spurs fans who use the term y****s are about as Jewish as the pope which is probably why the term was initially taken on as a badge of honour by them, because it meant little to them other than a bit of football banter...I'm not so sure the phrase would be taken so lightly by the vast majority of jews who are not Spurs fans or into football banter...and that should always be taken into account when using these words...
Yeah i agree they are filthy words that shouldnt be used by anyone. All im saying is that it cant be acceptable for certain Spurs fans to use the word openly when it is offensive to most people. the same with the n-word. There is an awful lot of black urban music in our mainstream culture nowadays and the n-word is used quire frequently. As adults we know that this word causes offence but if you are a 15 year old who listens to music and you hear this word banded around like its ok of course you are going to think that it is acceptable to use when it isnt. If the y-word is clamped down on by spurs fans to an extent that they dont use it anymore then it is highly likely that nobody will use it bur for as long as they use the word to describe themselves it will stick around.

djhdjh
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Post by djhdjh »

But as he's made clear to you the groups who it is seen as acceptable to use it are those who it is applied to. Because they are trying to reclaim the word for their community and spin it into something positive (I would disagree that the n word in urban music is used positively towards black people but that's not part of this argument).

In this context I think it is unacceptable for Spurs fans to use it because they are not all Jewish and they're not a Jewish organisation. If they were then maybe.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Deise Gooner wrote:I never use the y-word or the n-word for that matter but when certain sections of society are allowed to use it freely like Spurs fans do with their chants, banners, merchandise and like how the n-word is used an awful lot in urban music which is a massive part of our culture now its hard for those who listen to this music on the radio or hear the fans singing these chants and think well if its acceptable for them to use that word how come its not acceptable for me. Either nobody should use it or everyone should use it.
I understand you're point but the problem with that is how its used. When people use hate words to describe themselves it has two real purposes - one it creates greater solidarity between them and two it is meant to try to to take the sting out of the word, to take its power to hurt out of the word. That is precisely why why a minority group uses that word amongst themselves they still react to it differently when people from outside their group react to it. When blacks call each other the n-word or jews the y-word it simply doesn't have the same actual or potentail meaning as when whites use the n-word or non-jews the y-word, no matter.

It's just like an overweight comedian can make fat joke after fat joke, even call himself all sorts on names referencing their weight issues. But if some person who of a lower weight or better shape calls them a fat pig they will not see any humour in that unless that person is a long-time friend and the know for certain the remark was meant humourously and not hurtfully.

No matter what if you or I use the n-word or y-word around blacks or jews who may use it themselves it will still taken and judged differently because (assuming this is the case) we are not for that reason along. Because historically people who use the words form outisde their rac8ial groups use them to hate and hurt, whatever our actual intent.

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Deise Gooner
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Post by Deise Gooner »

USMartin wrote:
Deise Gooner wrote:I never use the y-word or the n-word for that matter but when certain sections of society are allowed to use it freely like Spurs fans do with their chants, banners, merchandise and like how the n-word is used an awful lot in urban music which is a massive part of our culture now its hard for those who listen to this music on the radio or hear the fans singing these chants and think well if its acceptable for them to use that word how come its not acceptable for me. Either nobody should use it or everyone should use it.
I understand you're point but the problem with that is how its used. When people use hate words to describe themselves it has two real purposes - one it creates greater solidarity between them and two it is meant to try to to take the sting out of the word, to take its power to hurt out of the word. That is precisely why why a minority group uses that word amongst themselves they still react to it differently when people from outside their group react to it. When blacks call each other the n-word or jews the y-word it simply doesn't have the same actual or potentail meaning as when whites use the n-word or non-jews the y-word, no matter.

It's just like an overweight comedian can make fat joke after fat joke, even call himself all sorts on names referencing their weight issues. But if some person who of a lower weight or better shape calls them a fat pig they will not see any humour in that unless that person is a long-time friend and the know for certain the remark was meant humourously and not hurtfully.

No matter what if you or I use the n-word or y-word around blacks or jews who may use it themselves it will still taken and judged differently because (assuming this is the case) we are not for that reason along. Because historically people who use the words form outisde their rac8ial groups use them to hate and hurt, whatever our actual intent.
I can see the reasoning behind that but these words are not acceptable for anyone to use because of the historical meaning of them. I have a black friend in college who regualry uses it to greet his friends and anytime he uses it around me it makes me quite uneasy as for me there is no need to take the sting out the word as you said because in todays society the n-word and the y-word are rarely used and when they are used its use is frowned upon as they are seen as not socially acceptable whereas 20 years ago that wasnt the case.

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SWLGooner
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Post by SWLGooner »

Tbh I try not to use it and am very very careful who I use it with.

But most of my Jewish mates who go to Arsenal or Chelsea or Spurs use it freely... It isn't for somebody like me to decide whether it's aceptable or not. Funnily enough the two people i know who use it the most are Jewish spurs fans.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

Deise Gooner wrote:
USMartin wrote:
Deise Gooner wrote:I never use the y-word or the n-word for that matter but when certain sections of society are allowed to use it freely like Spurs fans do with their chants, banners, merchandise and like how the n-word is used an awful lot in urban music which is a massive part of our culture now its hard for those who listen to this music on the radio or hear the fans singing these chants and think well if its acceptable for them to use that word how come its not acceptable for me. Either nobody should use it or everyone should use it.
I understand you're point but the problem with that is how its used. When people use hate words to describe themselves it has two real purposes - one it creates greater solidarity between them and two it is meant to try to to take the sting out of the word, to take its power to hurt out of the word. That is precisely why why a minority group uses that word amongst themselves they still react to it differently when people from outside their group react to it. When blacks call each other the n-word or jews the y-word it simply doesn't have the same actual or potentail meaning as when whites use the n-word or non-jews the y-word, no matter.

It's just like an overweight comedian can make fat joke after fat joke, even call himself all sorts on names referencing their weight issues. But if some person who of a lower weight or better shape calls them a fat pig they will not see any humour in that unless that person is a long-time friend and the know for certain the remark was meant humourously and not hurtfully.

No matter what if you or I use the n-word or y-word around blacks or jews who may use it themselves it will still taken and judged differently because (assuming this is the case) we are not for that reason along. Because historically people who use the words form outisde their rac8ial groups use them to hate and hurt, whatever our actual intent.
I can see the reasoning behind that but these words are not acceptable for anyone to use because of the historical meaning of them. I have a black friend in college who regualry uses it to greet his friends and anytime he uses it around me it makes me quite uneasy as for me there is no need to take the sting out the word as you said because in todays society the n-word and the y-word are rarely used and when they are used its use is frowned upon as they are seen as not socially acceptable whereas 20 years ago that wasnt the case.
I understand but the word has never been directed at you I presume in either instance (if I am incorrect please feel free to correct me) either out of affection or jest or genuine contempt or hatred. I would be in that same boat as you if that is the case, right down to your discomfort with it being used at all. But as Nick says very well below its not for us to decide that it is acceptable to use or when and where that is the case, because it is not language aimed at us personally in any circumstance.

That's why while I understand those who suggest that the s***s supporters need to stop using it themselves before anyone else will or should that maybe that is a bit unfair, because the s***s fans certainly those who are actually Jewish (and even those who aren't because after they are being stereotyped as being Jewish regardless are they not?)are not using the word the same way you and I might be using it. I know you aren't and I am not but how do they know if we are just two non-Jewish people calling them the y-word?

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Reg Niseth
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Post by Reg Niseth »

In Yiddish, the word "****" Yiddish: ייד is neutral or even complimentary, and in Ashkenazi Yiddish-speaking circles it is frequently used to mean simply "fellow," "chap," "buddy," "mate," etc., with no expressed emphasis on Jewishness (although this may be implied by the intra-Jewish context). Plural is יידן [jidn].

In Yiddish, a polite way to address a fellow Jew whose name one does not know is Reb ****, meaning "Sir." The Yiddish words yidish or yiddisher (from Middle High German jüdisch) is an adjective derived from the noun ****, and thus means "Jewish".

IF A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SWAMPIES WANTS TO LECTURE TO EVERYONE . . . FIRST SORT OUT YOUR OWN HOUSE.

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I Hate Hleb
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Post by I Hate Hleb »

As I've had to go through this thread making amendments to a lot of the posts, can I just remind everyone that, although it's not also automatically asterisked, the 'N' word is just as frowned upon on here as the 'Y' one is, and it would be appreciated if the whole word wasn't written within a post.

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digger
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Post by digger »

Vince wrote:I talked about it with a gooner from north london, but who is israeli. And he told me he's never been offended by the fact many gooners call the Spurs y****s. But the chants about holocaust should be condemned to be fair.
That's pretty much my view... when I refer to Spurs as "dirty y**** *word censored*", I'm insulting Tottenham, not even considering Judasism. I don't join in with the "We've got Cesc Fabregas, your fans are scared of gas" chants etc

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flash gunner
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Post by flash gunner »

I Hate Hleb wrote:As I've had to go through this thread making amendments to a lot of the posts, can I just remind everyone that, although it's not also automatically asterisked, the 'N' word is just as frowned upon on here as the 'Y' one is, and it would be appreciated if the whole word wasn't written within a post.
:roll: Italian *word censored*

























:wink:

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I Hate Hleb
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Post by I Hate Hleb »

digger wrote:
Vince wrote:I talked about it with a gooner from north london, but who is israeli. And he told me he's never been offended by the fact many gooners call the Spurs y****s. But the chants about holocaust should be condemned to be fair.
That's pretty much my view... when I refer to Spurs as "dirty y**** c**ts", I'm insulting Tottenham, not even considering Judasism. I don't join in with the "We've got Cesc Fabregas, your fans are scared of gas" chants etc
As is any variant of the 'Y' word!! :banghead: :banghead: :roll:

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Post by worthing gooner »

I dont use the word myself, just prefer to call em the spuds but i do agree with many on here that if that lot still are happy to sing from the rafters and shout that in the street then those who have a pop back its their choice.

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

digger wrote:
Vince wrote:I talked about it with a gooner from north london, but who is israeli. And he told me he's never been offended by the fact many gooners call the Spurs y****s. But the chants about holocaust should be condemned to be fair.
That's pretty much my view... when I refer to Spurs as "dirty y**** c**ts", I'm insulting Tottenham, not even considering Judasism. I don't join in with the "We've got Cesc Fabregas, your fans are scared of gas" chants etc
Fair enough - except that again how someone might react is not up to you is it. Some might view it as a badge of homour some might view it normal banter between supporters but some might take genuine offence and confront you over it.

See s***s supporters know why they are using it and know what it means when they use it. They have little to no way of knowing when anyone else does whether its just a piss-take or a racist slur - even at a football ground.

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xDAVEYx
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Post by xDAVEYx »

scum works just as well i reckon :lol:

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USMartin
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Post by USMartin »

xDAVEYx wrote:scum works just as well i reckon :lol:
I prefer trogledyte myself as whatever their race religion or nationality they seem kind of like cave people to me

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