As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
he is only saying what i have been ranting about the last 2 years. I agree with every fucking word he has said. Just a shame you wasnt around when the akb mongs sing wengers name when were 2.0 down to liverpool!
I do however think i have found someone as angry with wenger as i am.
This is very rare.
Yes, BUT you do it so much more eloquently mikey!......Yes, I know hard to believe...but the evidence is there for all to see.
he is only saying what i have been ranting about the last 2 years. I agree with every fucking word he has said. Just a shame you wasnt around when the akb mongs sing wengers name when were 2.0 down to liverpool!
I do however think i have found someone as angry with wenger as i am.
This is very rare.
Yes, BUT you do it so much more eloquently mikey!......Yes, I know hard to believe...but the evidence is there for all to see.
I am truely touched. And not in the king jayson way
he is only saying what i have been ranting about the last 2 years. I agree with every fucking word he has said. Just a shame you wasnt around when the akb mongs sing wengers name when were 2.0 down to liverpool!
I do however think i have found someone as angry with wenger as i am.
This is very rare.
Yes, BUT you do it so much more eloquently mikey!......Yes, I know hard to believe...but the evidence is there for all to see.
I am truely touched. And not in the king jayson way
And in that way too. Or that is what DUFFMAN told us
Babatunde wrote:In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?
What would you say of Van Persie? He was what 21 when we got him and rough as fuck round the edges.
I'm on record here as probably his biggest fan. I don't rate any striker in world football better. He is equal to them all.
Does that count? His improvement over the years has been massive and Wenger has to have some credit for that, no?
Come on Number 5 mate. It's clear that Van Persie is a Feyenoord product. He was immensely talented already when he joined us but was sold so cheap because Feyenoord were fed up of his injuries.
I really, really like Robin Van Persie and I think he's superb. Really rate him.
However I don't agree with you that he is up there with any striker, no chance.
David Villa, Sam Eto'o, Didier Drogba, Aguero and Rooney are all better players for me (when you especially factor in consistency and performances over a whole season).
Top player though. And a Feyenoord product.
Fair enough if that's the criteria you are using. My second post in this thread says a bit more about what I think there.
But after you're reply there I think Quartz make the most reasonable reply in saying Wengers legacy is more about fast tracking players, late teens early twenties, into the first team who would have had to wait years more for a chance where the were.
But then that takes us down a tangent linked to the stadium move which would open up another can of worms.
So youth messiah, no.
Man who gave massive chances to unproven but talented players, yes.
Well said agree with all of that.
How can you agree with all Number 5 said.... my whole post was basically saying Wenger gives raw/young players a chance in the first team, and you shot me down in flames!
Babatunde wrote:I was having a chat with my mate (ok I was talking to myself in the mirror)...
And we were discussing what an inept manager Wenger has been for seven years and mentioning how the media have these antiquated Wengerspeak myths that are, complete bollocks.
One of my pet hates is the notion that Arsene Wenger is this great developer of Youth. I'll keep this short: that is complete bollocks. He isn't.
I believe it is telling that when discussing Wenger success stories with young players over the recent past, AKBs often immediately tend to point towards Henry and Vieira, who were signed in a different century and were known players.
In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?
I would go as far as to say that in his whole Arsenal tenure, in terms of young players he can take credit for developing and bringing through we can point to: Ashley Cole (left Arsenal for money and gave up on Wenger), and Kolo Toure because he needed development. Please correct me if I am forgetting anybody else but these are the only names I can think of? Most recently Jack Wilshere has emerged and is looking excellent - but that is three players in approaching sixteen years. That's incredibly poor for a man whose reputation is apparently based on givign youth a chance.
More alarming is if you look at recent evidence. Young players are deserting Wenger in droves because they complain of not being given a chance or, become sick of playing under an unambitious manager who stunts their careers. Bendtner is a young player who left because he cannot get a game ahead of some much older, far more useless French crap (Chamak. And yes he is French). Havard Nordveit and Rui Fonte all trumpeted and both moved on. Clichy was a monumental failure. Lansbury should be given a go but since he doesn't speak French will never get the chances Diaby does.
Remember, Ash Cole was almost flogged to Palace until Wenger discovered his passport was dodgy. I am not trying to urinate all over Wenger's legacy, just stating facts.
The players he is often credited with 'developing' are also highly dubious and in some instances, laughable. Thierry Henry for instance? Who knew France's top goalscorer in the year they won the World Cup! Henry was a great player off form and Wenger helped him rediscover it. Kudos for that but he never developed him. Anelka was developed at PSG, everyone knew what a top talent this kid was as he was already ripping it up as a 16 year old in France. Patrick Vieira was snared from Cannes by AC Milan but because of their strict foreigner rules, Wenger was able to snatch him. Again, he couldn't have developed him if Milan had already spotted how good the player was.
I honestly think this reputation Wenger has of bringing through youth has to be re-evaluated against the Facts. Look at Sczesny: Almunia played 4 years in goal and it took a Flappy injury for him to finally get a chance. It happened by accident. Meanwhile look at the time and chances afforded the likes of Shitachi, Cygan, Silvestre and Chamak (see a common theme there? All French!)
Bit long sorry but...Thoughts?
You really are a KNOBBER aren't you.
Great insult. Did mummy teach you this after potty training today?
Babatunde wrote:I was having a chat with my mate (ok I was talking to myself in the mirror)...
And we were discussing what an inept manager Wenger has been for seven years and mentioning how the media have these antiquated Wengerspeak myths that are, complete bollocks.
One of my pet hates is the notion that Arsene Wenger is this great developer of Youth. I'll keep this short: that is complete bollocks. He isn't.
I believe it is telling that when discussing Wenger success stories with young players over the recent past, AKBs often immediately tend to point towards Henry and Vieira, who were signed in a different century and were known players.
In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?
I would go as far as to say that in his whole Arsenal tenure, in terms of young players he can take credit for developing and bringing through we can point to: Ashley Cole (left Arsenal for money and gave up on Wenger), and Kolo Toure because he needed development. Please correct me if I am forgetting anybody else but these are the only names I can think of? Most recently Jack Wilshere has emerged and is looking excellent - but that is three players in approaching sixteen years. That's incredibly poor for a man whose reputation is apparently based on givign youth a chance.
More alarming is if you look at recent evidence. Young players are deserting Wenger in droves because they complain of not being given a chance or, become sick of playing under an unambitious manager who stunts their careers. Bendtner is a young player who left because he cannot get a game ahead of some much older, far more useless French crap (Chamak. And yes he is French). Havard Nordveit and Rui Fonte all trumpeted and both moved on. Clichy was a monumental failure. Lansbury should be given a go but since he doesn't speak French will never get the chances Diaby does.
Remember, Ash Cole was almost flogged to Palace until Wenger discovered his passport was dodgy. I am not trying to urinate all over Wenger's legacy, just stating facts.
The players he is often credited with 'developing' are also highly dubious and in some instances, laughable. Thierry Henry for instance? Who knew France's top goalscorer in the year they won the World Cup! Henry was a great player off form and Wenger helped him rediscover it. Kudos for that but he never developed him. Anelka was developed at PSG, everyone knew what a top talent this kid was as he was already ripping it up as a 16 year old in France. Patrick Vieira was snared from Cannes by AC Milan but because of their strict foreigner rules, Wenger was able to snatch him. Again, he couldn't have developed him if Milan had already spotted how good the player was.
I honestly think this reputation Wenger has of bringing through youth has to be re-evaluated against the Facts. Look at Sczesny: Almunia played 4 years in goal and it took a Flappy injury for him to finally get a chance. It happened by accident. Meanwhile look at the time and chances afforded the likes of Shitachi, Cygan, Silvestre and Chamak (see a common theme there? All French!)
Bit long sorry but...Thoughts?
You really are a KNOBBER aren't you.
Great insult. Did mummy teach you this after potty training today?
Babatunde wrote:I was having a chat with my mate (ok I was talking to myself in the mirror)...
And we were discussing what an inept manager Wenger has been for seven years and mentioning how the media have these antiquated Wengerspeak myths that are, complete bollocks.
One of my pet hates is the notion that Arsene Wenger is this great developer of Youth. I'll keep this short: that is complete bollocks. He isn't.
I believe it is telling that when discussing Wenger success stories with young players over the recent past, AKBs often immediately tend to point towards Henry and Vieira, who were signed in a different century and were known players.
In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?
I would go as far as to say that in his whole Arsenal tenure, in terms of young players he can take credit for developing and bringing through we can point to: Ashley Cole (left Arsenal for money and gave up on Wenger), and Kolo Toure because he needed development. Please correct me if I am forgetting anybody else but these are the only names I can think of? Most recently Jack Wilshere has emerged and is looking excellent - but that is three players in approaching sixteen years. That's incredibly poor for a man whose reputation is apparently based on givign youth a chance.
More alarming is if you look at recent evidence. Young players are deserting Wenger in droves because they complain of not being given a chance or, become sick of playing under an unambitious manager who stunts their careers. Bendtner is a young player who left because he cannot get a game ahead of some much older, far more useless French crap (Chamak. And yes he is French). Havard Nordveit and Rui Fonte all trumpeted and both moved on. Clichy was a monumental failure. Lansbury should be given a go but since he doesn't speak French will never get the chances Diaby does.
Remember, Ash Cole was almost flogged to Palace until Wenger discovered his passport was dodgy. I am not trying to urinate all over Wenger's legacy, just stating facts.
The players he is often credited with 'developing' are also highly dubious and in some instances, laughable. Thierry Henry for instance? Who knew France's top goalscorer in the year they won the World Cup! Henry was a great player off form and Wenger helped him rediscover it. Kudos for that but he never developed him. Anelka was developed at PSG, everyone knew what a top talent this kid was as he was already ripping it up as a 16 year old in France. Patrick Vieira was snared from Cannes by AC Milan but because of their strict foreigner rules, Wenger was able to snatch him. Again, he couldn't have developed him if Milan had already spotted how good the player was.
I honestly think this reputation Wenger has of bringing through youth has to be re-evaluated against the Facts. Look at Sczesny: Almunia played 4 years in goal and it took a Flappy injury for him to finally get a chance. It happened by accident. Meanwhile look at the time and chances afforded the likes of Shitachi, Cygan, Silvestre and Chamak (see a common theme there? All French!)
Bit long sorry but...Thoughts?
You really are a KNOBBER aren't you.
Great insult. Did mummy teach you this after potty training today?
Babatunde wrote:I was having a chat with my mate (ok I was talking to myself in the mirror)...
And we were discussing what an inept manager Wenger has been for seven years and mentioning how the media have these antiquated Wengerspeak myths that are, complete bollocks.
One of my pet hates is the notion that Arsene Wenger is this great developer of Youth. I'll keep this short: that is complete bollocks. He isn't.
I believe it is telling that when discussing Wenger success stories with young players over the recent past, AKBs often immediately tend to point towards Henry and Vieira, who were signed in a different century and were known players.
In the past seven years, can anybody please name a single young player that Arsene Wenger has brought through and successfully developed?
I would go as far as to say that in his whole Arsenal tenure, in terms of young players he can take credit for developing and bringing through we can point to: Ashley Cole (left Arsenal for money and gave up on Wenger), and Kolo Toure because he needed development. Please correct me if I am forgetting anybody else but these are the only names I can think of? Most recently Jack Wilshere has emerged and is looking excellent - but that is three players in approaching sixteen years. That's incredibly poor for a man whose reputation is apparently based on givign youth a chance.
More alarming is if you look at recent evidence. Young players are deserting Wenger in droves because they complain of not being given a chance or, become sick of playing under an unambitious manager who stunts their careers. Bendtner is a young player who left because he cannot get a game ahead of some much older, far more useless French crap (Chamak. And yes he is French). Havard Nordveit and Rui Fonte all trumpeted and both moved on. Clichy was a monumental failure. Lansbury should be given a go but since he doesn't speak French will never get the chances Diaby does.
Remember, Ash Cole was almost flogged to Palace until Wenger discovered his passport was dodgy. I am not trying to urinate all over Wenger's legacy, just stating facts.
The players he is often credited with 'developing' are also highly dubious and in some instances, laughable. Thierry Henry for instance? Who knew France's top goalscorer in the year they won the World Cup! Henry was a great player off form and Wenger helped him rediscover it. Kudos for that but he never developed him. Anelka was developed at PSG, everyone knew what a top talent this kid was as he was already ripping it up as a 16 year old in France. Patrick Vieira was snared from Cannes by AC Milan but because of their strict foreigner rules, Wenger was able to snatch him. Again, he couldn't have developed him if Milan had already spotted how good the player was.
I honestly think this reputation Wenger has of bringing through youth has to be re-evaluated against the Facts. Look at Sczesny: Almunia played 4 years in goal and it took a Flappy injury for him to finally get a chance. It happened by accident. Meanwhile look at the time and chances afforded the likes of Shitachi, Cygan, Silvestre and Chamak (see a common theme there? All French!)
Bit long sorry but...Thoughts?
You really are a KNOBBER aren't you.
Great insult. Did mummy teach you this after potty training today?
Scezny doesn't count for an obvious reason: he has not proved himself to be a quality player.
The criteria is simple:
1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.
Now. When I think Youth and Wenger then I think:
- Ashley Cole (even though AW almost sold him to Palace and then didn't once he found out about Sylvinho)
- Wilshere
- At an absolute push then I would give him Kolo Toure.
So that's three players in almost SIXTEEN years.
David Moyes has a better record than that with less resources.
Ferguson clearly has a much better record etc...
Now. Unless people wanna include the likes of Bentley, Jerome Thomas, Ryan Garry and Upson (in any case he was from Luton but I digress)....
I think Wenger's record is pony.
I realise young players are massively hit and miss and Fergie etc have had lots of duds, but Wenger's record with young players HE has developed is no better than any random league manager.
This is a convenient media myth that needs to be exposed for what it is...
Y'know, I really wasn't sure about you. I think your idea that Wenger is at fault for everything wrong with the universe is a bit much. But, you used 'brah'. I like that. So you're alright with me!
Anyhoo, I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure exactly what your point is. If Wenger has a reputation in the media of developing youngsters, whether it's accurate or not, surely you should be more annoyed with the media than with Wenger. I can't recall him bigging himself up about developing youngsters from scratch (although I could be wrong).
Wenger is not perfect and, even in the 'glory years' I didn't think he was a very good tactitian. However, I'm starting to come round to the view that there must be something going on upstairs that we don't know about. There must be. Wenger is/was a very good manager who has done things with us that no one else has. I just don't understand how you, overnight, become a bad manager. There simply must be more to this than meets the eye. What that is, I don't know and I'm not sure we'll ever know.
100% agreed
With the team we had in the highbury years how he didn't get past QF of CL is beyond me. Other quality managers just out thunk him tactically.
flash gunner wrote:The whole Wenger youth thing is utter bollocks. He probably has a success rate of bring youngsters through to Arsenal level or better of about 2% which is no better than most of the other top clubs. I think this myth is generally fading now as both Smalling and Jones chose united over us when in the past ie Ramsey we used to get the pick but not anymore.
Once the myth is totally gone i dont think there is much left for Wenger
^^^This.
And remember, Arsenal offered Smalling and Jones much higher wages than ManYoo and they still chose to go to Fergie! Platini called it exactly right on Wenger: he is a businessman first, he is a football manager last.
well said mate you speak the truth in your posts but most people find it uncomfortable and like having a dig, rather than giving it to wenger the creator of this "hate", we need a clean break from the ego maniac but no doubt he will be moved upstairs to accounts and finance and have his tightfisted hands round the throat of whoevers next
flash gunner wrote:The whole Wenger youth thing is utter bollocks. He probably has a success rate of bring youngsters through to Arsenal level or better of about 2% which is no better than most of the other top clubs. I think this myth is generally fading now as both Smalling and Jones chose united over us when in the past ie Ramsey we used to get the pick but not anymore.
Once the myth is totally gone i dont think there is much left for Wenger
^^^This.
And remember, Arsenal offered Smalling and Jones much higher wages than ManYoo and they still chose to go to Fergie! Platini called it exactly right on Wenger: he is a businessman first, he is a football manager last.
well said mate you speak the truth in your posts but most people find it uncomfortable and like having a dig, rather than giving it to wenger the creator of this "hate", we need a clean break from the ego maniac but no doubt he will be moved upstairs to accounts and finance and have his tightfisted hands round the throat of whoevers next
Let me start this by saying I am not wengers biggest fan HOWEVER
Wenger joined 14 years ago, with very little in terms of a youth program.
HOWE FUCKING LONG DOES IT TAKE TO START A YOUTH RECRUITMENT PROCESS!!!
By your terms
1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.
1. what is a very very young age?? 7-8-9?? well that rules out the first 6--8 years of wengers tenure.
3 proved to be top quality at what age is this proven by 23/24 or above well there is 10-12 years of wengers time in charge!! how the fuck is he supposed to train youth when even by your protocol is all most impossible,
Lets not look at youth. lets look at players who without wenger would have never have made it into superstars, or very decent players.
henry
kolo
ljunberg
viera
fab
nasri?
if i could be fuck i would name more. Youth is not a 1 year project its a generation project 20+ years.
Wenger will see some of these turn into superstars i.e Wilshere & Wojitech, possibly frimpong + afobe + aneke + 2-3 more.
dudbux wrote:Let me start this by saying I am not wengers biggest fan HOWEVER
Wenger joined 14 years ago, with very little in terms of a youth program.
HOWE FUCKING LONG DOES IT TAKE TO START A YOUTH RECRUITMENT PROCESS!!!
By your terms
1. Has to be a player brought through from a very very young age.
2. Academy trained
3. Has to be a player who has indisputably proved himself to be top quality
4. Cannot have been signed for a monetary exceeding £1 million. Because then it's just a transfer and the compensation is paid as the player has been trained elsewhere.
1. what is a very very young age?? 7-8-9?? well that rules out the first 6--8 years of wengers tenure.
3 proved to be top quality at what age is this proven by 23/24 or above well there is 10-12 years of wengers time in charge!! how the fuck is he supposed to train youth when even by your protocol is all most impossible,
Lets not look at youth. lets look at players who without wenger would have never have made it into superstars, or very decent players.
henry
kolo
ljunberg
viera
fab nasri?
if i could be fuck i would name more. Youth is not a 1 year project its a generation project 20+ years.
Wenger will see some of these turn into superstars i.e Wilshere & Wojitech, possibly frimpong + afobe + aneke + 2-3 more.
now watch bababtne say that nasri actually regressed at arsenal, that nasri was tearing apart the highly reputable french league. That in his OM days top clubs were throwing 20mil around vying for his signature, that he could have looked the part of a dzeko aguero david silva nasri front 4 at 19.
but we've seen many failed prospects. Bendtner, Jet, lansbury, sunu all gone/going this season alone.
