The Banner

arsenalmorris · Post by **arsenalmorris** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:00 pm

just red about this on google news lol

worthing_gooner · Post by **worthing_gooner** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:20 pm

Red Member wrote:no of course they are not irrelevant but it doesnt necessarily indicate where we will finish this season.

I also dont understand why you are going back to last season.
we finished 4th 3 points behind 2nd. Not too bad. what is the problem?

Are you fucking serious?

Are you happy to finish fourth place in the league? Is that acceptable to you? We're Arsenal FFS where's your pride? We were the best team in the world six years ago, unbeaten in an entire PL season, world class players all over the first team.

Now how many world class players do we have? RVP? That's about it as far as I can see. Not acceptable to fall that far in that space of time.

Post by **DB10GOONER** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:35 pm

kiwomya wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote:
kiwomya wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote:
kiwomya wrote: Only focus on the negatives! You sound like that Babatunde character.

You didn't care to mention the fact he won the league with them...
Mate - do you understand the concept that football is competitive? That it is a results-driven business?

I don't care what a manager wins with my club, if he then allows my club to sink away and get relegated. Sure I'd appreciate what he won but I would want him sacked immediately (but hopefully long before it got to that point).

Why do so many modern fans think a bit of success entitles a manager to a job for life?

Wenger is paid a fortune by our club (that's you and me in the end) to deliver success. He is not at a small club where he is paid moderately to deliver survival and maybe a good cup run. He is at one of *The Big Three in the highest profile league in the world and is paid millions to deliver success. It is that cut and dried. If he cannot do it to some acceptable level then he needs to go.

Scrapping for 4th every season is not acceptable.

*(The Big Three for me is still Us, Manure and the Mousers. Fuck the chavs and their couple of seasons of recent success. When it comes to tradition, history, fame, long term success, fan base etc THAT is The Big Three).
My opinion is that modern fans DON'T think of the manager having a job for life. That's what makes Arsenal unique. Look at Chelsea.

The poor performances and mid-season let downs blind people into thinking we are somesort of rubbish outfit.

If you only kept a manager based on trophies then the Premier League would have 19 new managers each season - you can only have one winner. Second/third/fourth best is proper frustrating but not bad considering what Arsenal are up against.
But you see that (bolded) is not what I said. Only an idiot would use the criteria of trophies alone to judge a manager I agree. But Where Wenger has failed is he has not won a single trophy since 2005. That is 6 full seasons. Where he has failed even worse is his failure to address the same issues we have laboured under for the last 4 or 5 years - poor quality defenders/defending, lack of proper game-specific tactics, lack of a top notch DM.

Also, with all due respect, you have been a tad disingenuous by mentioning the other PL teams in that way (relating to trophies). The reason they don't have 19 new managers each year is explained in my post above. It's about expectations. Small clubs pay managers less to deliver less. Big clubs pay managers more to deliver more.
I agree that the squad issues haven't been properly addressed. For whatever reason (money, ignorance etc) it just hasn't happened.

Mate i'm not knocking your opinion but considering what has happened to the Premier league over the last 5 years I don't think we've done too badly. I won't for one second say that I haven't been frustrated during this time with the same things as everyone else - but I don' think we can complain. It's an opinion that many on here won't agree with!

I don't want to bang on about the "rich" clubs but without doubt it has caused a lot of issues for Arsenal.

I apreciate you being able to debate this without it descending into the usal "you're a fucking this that and the other!"

We certainly have different views on this subject but I can respect where you are coming from even if I can't agree.

Post by **DB10GOONER** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:54 pm

Red Member wrote:
Scrapping for 4th every season is not acceptable.

*(The Big Three for me is still Us, Manure and the Mousers. Fuck the chavs and their couple of seasons of recent success. When it comes to tradition, history, fame, long term success, fan base etc THAT is The Big Three).
im sorry but you are living in the past.
Chelsea became one of the big boys in 2003
Manchester City joined this in 2008.

football success constantly changes. Liverpool were a small club dont forget until the 1960s. Everton historically were just as big a team on Merseyside. Sunderland had probably won more than Man Utd up until the 1950s.

Can't agree Particularly with the bolded bit. The chavs became a rich club as did Citeh - they are not yet part of a Big 3 or Big 4 by any stretch of the imagination. If in 20 or 30 years time they have proven some form of sustained success, have a far larger fan base (both in Engerland and abroard) than they do now, then they can be considered big boys.

But no self respecting football fan with any type of pedigree would consider them there yet. I don't know how old you are but you sound like maybe early 20's because your point of reference seems to be recent success (in the chavs case) and recent riches (in the both chav and Citeh cases).

But a club's status is not dictated solely by current wealth.

Arsenal have had success in most decades since the 30's, Mousers since the 70's and Manure since the 80's (some would say the 60's). The game is only just over 130 years old! Yet we've had repeated successes for 80 or so of those years, the mousers roughly 50 and manure roughly 30 (or 50 if you count their 60's successes).

And another key part of this is also the fact that all three clubs have dominated the game for the best part of a decade - us in the 30's, Mousers in the late 70s to late 80's, manure in the 2000's.

The chavs and Citeh cannot compete with that type of status just because they are now rich clubs.

That is not what football is about to real football fans. It's about tribal status, it's about one-upmanship on rival fans, it's about the glory of winning and sustaining success, it's about pride in the team and the players.

It hasn't ever been about bragging about being a fucking rich club until recently. "Fans" like you are what has gone wrong with the game. You don't understand where the game came from, what it's appeal was. Once you have your comfy seat, a Â£7 hotdog and no one making any noise near you in a nice shiney stadium you are happy.

Fuck that.

Post by **flash gunner** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:03 pm

Lets cut the bullshit!!! Is this banner going up at the weekend?

Post by **REB** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:29 pm

flash gunner wrote:Lets cut the bullshit!!! Is this banner going up at the weekend?

i dont think it needs to go up. the banner has done more and got more people thinking and talking about wenger and when it is his time to go and any arsenal group/facebook page etc has done. you have been on twitter flash and the last few days have been mental plus this online vote has shown that peoples mindsets are changing.

well done to the guys at arsenalfcnotplc.

augie · Post by **augie** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:36 pm

But if it doesnt go up then doesnt it appear to be a back-down in the face of opposition from the akb ? Would it also suggest that we are in the minority not the majority if we dont show the courage of our convictions ? Finally will a back-down also suggest that it is a flimsy protest by a group of people that are easily swayed and/or pushed around as opposed to a strong message from hardcore life long Gooners ?

Obviously I dont want swl or any of those lining up beside him to receive any sanctions from the club so that is very important but the ramifications of a stand down should also be considered

goonersid · Post by **goonersid** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:48 pm

augie wrote:But if it doesnt go up then doesnt it appear to be a back-down in the face of opposition from the akb ? Would it also suggest that we are in the minority not the majority if we dont show the courage of our convictions ? Finally will a back-down also suggest that it is a flimsy protest by a group of people that are easily swayed and/or pushed around as opposed to a strong message from hardcore life long Gooners ?
Obviously I dont want swl or any of those lining up beside him to receive any sanctions from the club so that is very important but the ramifications of a stand down should also be considered

Spot on, the time is now.

Macca · Post by **Macca** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:54 pm

Mate - do you understand the concept that football is competitive? That it is a results-driven business?

I don't care what a manager wins with my club, if he then allows my club to sink away and get relegated. Sure I'd appreciate what he won but I would want him sacked immediately (but hopefully long before it got to that point).

Why do so many modern fans think a bit of success entitles a manager to a job for life?

Wenger is paid a fortune by our club (that's you and me in the end) to deliver success. He is not at a small club where he is paid moderately to deliver survival and maybe a good cup run. He is at one of *The Big Three in the highest profile league in the world and is paid millions to deliver success. It is that cut and dried. If he cannot do it to some acceptable level then he needs to go.

Scrapping for 4th every season is not acceptable.

*(The Big Three for me is still Us, Manure and the Mousers. Fuck the chavs and their couple of seasons of recent success. When it comes to tradition, history, fame, long term success, fan base etc THAT is The Big Three).[/quote]

Just read this DB10 , Spot on !!

Red Member · Post by **Red Member** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:17 pm

Macca wrote:Mate - do you understand the concept that football is competitive? That it is a results-driven business?

totally agree
the fact that Wenger has consistently produced results over the last 15 years is why he is the most successful manager Arsenal have ever had AND why he is still in charge.

Macca · Post by **Macca** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:26 pm

DB10 wrote it . I agreed with the whole statement , his consistancy over the last 6 is not good enough , that's the point.

Red Member · Post by **Red Member** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:55 pm

in a bygone age I agree his record is not good enough.
however we live in a new era these days and to constantly get in the top 4 year after year is remarkable.

we are not able to compete financially with City and Chelsea and we still havent quite caught up with United.

what is perhaps of most concern is that should another billionaire decide to buy another top club we are totally screwed perhaps forever.

that is why Usmanov is probably the only hope Arsenal have got.

Henry Norris 1913 · Post by **Henry Norris 1913** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:56 pm

Macca wrote:DB10 wrote it . I agreed with the whole statement , his consistancy over the last 6 is not good enough , that's the point.

actually its been fantastic . no matter how good a squad we've had, he's managed to mess up so called title challenges , sell our best players, reward championship quality players with generous contracts, taken years to discover weaknesses in the squad we noticed a long time ago. Not forgetting consistently coming out with embarassing excuses, blaming pitches, not spending money on adequate replacements for sold players and for not winning a trophy for 6 years in a row, even when it looked that winning was easier than losing .
Wengers consistency in building mentally weak teams on self imposed budgets and playing "project" with us should not be questioned . His consistency deserves nothing other than the sack. If this was any other club in the world he would have gone now. Shame on spineless arsene fans like Iceman and co.

Pirestzel · Post by **Pirestzel** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:03 pm

You cant pull out now, you'll look more pathetic than Wenger with his arms outstretched. If it dont get seen on Sunday, Im sure you'll be there to pop it up in Marseille come Wednesday . . .

Post by **I Hate Hleb** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:30 pm

Pirestzel wrote:You cant pull out now, you'll look more pathetic than Wenger with his arms outstretched. If it dont get seen on Sunday, Im sure you'll be there to pop it up in Marseille come Wednesday . . .

Not sure if that was written with sarcasm in mind, although I suspect it was, but it might in fact be a good idea. Unveiling it in Wenger's home country, where he is generally worshiped, might be an embarrassment too far for the man's ego!!