I BLAME ARSENE WENGER

gunnerb · Post by **gunnerb** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:45 am

This thread is a pile of shit, we are in debt upto eyes and have to balance the books for the next few seasons. I am however under the impression that magnificent stadium and magnificent supporters that spend thier well earned cash going needs a superstar, we dont have one at the moment.
Wenger has not only changed Arsenal from a medium sized club to one of the true big boys of world football, but changed the face of English football for good.
We will always be a big club forever now, not for one season. Whos that down to?

southampton gooner · Post by **southampton gooner** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:47 am

It would make for interesting end of season if all clubs think the way some people on here do. Only 1 team can win the league so at end of last season Chavs, Arsenal and L Pool should of sacked their manager and this season if we win Utd should sack red nose etc. In fact Liverpool would of had about 14 new managers since they aint won the league in years.
I'm not saying AW is perfect and we have some players that I don't rate but lets be honest Liverpool have spent millions more than us and never got near winning the prem league. So it aint all down to the Â£s. You need a great manager and that is what we have...

southampton gooner · Post by **southampton gooner** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:48 am

gunnerb wrote:This thread is a pile of shit, we are in debt upto eyes and have to balance the books for the next few seasons. I am however under the impression that magnificent stadium and magnificent supporters that spend thier well earned cash going needs a superstar, we dont have one at the moment.
Wenger has not only changed Arsenal from a medium sized club to one of the true big boys of world football, but changed the face of English football for good.
We will always be a big club forever now, not for one season. Whos that down to?

Well said that man

AFC 49'er · Post by **AFC 49'er** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:39 pm

totally agree with gunnerb & southampton gooner

Rebel - i know where you are coming from but when man u or chelsea get a last minute goal to save a game everyone think they have got great spirit and it shows resiliance, but when Arenal do it, we were lucky not to lose and/or have lost the plot, gone off the boil or any other similar term.

i still believe this premiership is our to loose and momemtum can change from week to week.

cpmarkw - tell us all, who are these quality players that want to come to Arsenal - i must have missed those announcements while asleep

Gunnerz4life · Post by **Gunnerz4life** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:55 pm

Cus Geezer wrote:
We have to see where his philosophy of developing talent rather than buying it takes us this season and maybe the next. If we dont get the desired success maybe its time for both him and us to move on.
I've heard some nonsense on this forum, but this beats most hands down.

We've drawn two games for fuck sake and only lost one premiership game all season.

Let's see where his philosophy gets us this season.......um well if not the title then a two places higher than last season and the season before that.

Are you a moron? What did my comment had to do with our performance against Vila or in the league for the matter?

We are a big club, I dont know what is the idea of a big club for you but for me a big club is one which wins major trophies. Thinking about "how much we did better than last season" each season might be acceptable for the likes of Everton, Aston Villa, Spuds, Newcastle but not for us. Now theres a possibility that maybe Mr Edelman and co is spreading bollocks about funds being available. If thats the case then well we have the best person in the world to make the most of what we have in Arsene. However if there isnt any reason for not buying proven quality other than Arsene's philopsophy and passion for developing young players and if it actually hampers our chances to win trophies, then you have to be open to possibilities. I dont understand the hoolah over that. I gave him two freaking seasons. And do you honestly believe the likes of Cesc or Gallas would be happy about our improvement each season and stay if we dont win things?

Gunnerz4life · Post by **Gunnerz4life** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:11 pm

southampton gooner wrote:It would make for interesting end of season if all clubs think the way some people on here do. Only 1 team can win the league so at end of last season Chavs, Arsenal and L Pool should of sacked their manager and this season if we win Utd should sack red nose etc. In fact Liverpool would of had about 14 new managers since they aint won the league in years.
I'm not saying AW is perfect and we have some players that I don't rate but lets be honest Liverpool have spent millions more than us and never got near winning the prem league. So it aint all down to the Â£s. You need a great manager and that is what we have...

First of all there are more trophies to play for each season than the premier league. Secondly its not about one season without success thats enough to sack a manager, it has to be several, specially with someone who has have had success.

And I find it quite funny how people mention Liverpool having spend millions and not getting near winning the premier league. Manscum and Chelski has done the same, whats their record? Barca and Real have spent millions, whats their record? Its true its not all down to how much money one spends, but also the intelligence needed to know which players to spend the money on. With all the money he had spent, who has Benitez brought in his time at Liverpool apart from Torres? Kyut, Mark Gonzales, Bellamy, Benayoun? Not the sorta players who will win you leagues (well premier leagues anyways). In modern football, how much are you willing to pay to bring in proven quality is of as importance as how many young players you develop if not more, for top clubs anyways. Thats a sad situation but thats how it is. You need a great manager and the manager needs to be told "Boss freaking forget about balancing the books, just choose your players and we will try our best to get them for you".

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:21 pm

[quote="gunnerb"]This thread is a pile of shit, we are in debt upto eyes and have to balance the books for the next few seasons.

That is dead wrong.

We are the only club in the top division that has existed for the last 4 years on a negative Nett spend. That is we make more from selling players than we spend on them. Even Derby can't claim that !

We earn Â£3.2 million per home game.
We have Nike and Emirates Sponsorship money.
We have EPL prize money for finishing - wherever ? - fourth last time.
We have the cash from the new TV deal which kicked in this season and runs for three years.
Oh yes and we have CL money - as long as we stay in the CL and whatever happend in the future, we've had that for the last nine years.

If that's poverty than I'll personally take a large dose of it.

Fact is we all knew that when we moved from Highbury for two or maybe three years either side of the move we'd have to accept that we could not compete in the transfer market.

Now we can and I'm sick of seeing the Mancs make all the quality signings and we're left with teenagers from Norway and Gillingham.

And don't give me the 'great young' argument 'cause they ain't that great and they aint getting any younger.

We desperately needed a mobile central defender and a winger in August. If Wenger had not been so stupid/stubbon it could make the difference between us winning something and finishing also rans - again!

Now we need those two, at least one forward, a defensive CM and a left sided defender at the minimum. The chances of Wenger realising even half that are zero. Read his programme notes from yesterday. He could not wait to get his denial in about making any signing to cover for Eduardo, in the summer. It was an astonishing thing to say with the guy barely starting to heal and facing 9 months out.

I am not calling for Wenger to go - yet. But I am calling for him to change tack. He's had four years of this policy of teenage promotions and negative spending and we've won nothing since Pat left. And we won't until we start to seriously address the squad deficiences we clearly have.

Cus Geezer · Post by **Cus Geezer** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:17 pm

We are a big club, I dont know what is the idea of a big club for you but for me a big club is one which wins major trophies.

So Sunderland in 1974, Southampton in 1976, West Ham in 1980 or Wimbledon in 1988 were all a 'big club' by way of winning a major trophy that year.

My definition of a big club is one which challenges for the big trophies on a regular basis - despite not winning one since 2005 we've been in finals in the last two of our 'bad' seasons.

Thinking about "how much we did better than last season" each season might be acceptable for the likes of Everton, Aston Villa, Spuds, Newcastle but not for us.

I would think doing better than last season would be a priority for any club - doesn't the club that comes 2nd look to improve on last season.

However if there isnt any reason for not buying proven quality other than Arsene's philopsophy and passion for developing young players and if it actually hampers our chances to win trophies, then you have to be open to possibilities. I dont understand the hoolah over that. I gave him two freaking seasons. And do you honestly believe the likes of Cesc or Gallas would be happy about our improvement each season and stay if we dont win things?

Firstly look at how Chelsea and Liverpool have splashed the cash for the oh so treasured possession of the finished articles with 'experience', look how they haven't improved on last year and have if anything gone backwards.

About players who aren't happy with our rate of progression - name me one player who's left Arsenal and cited 'winning things' and 'ambition' not being sufficient and name me one who has out done us in terms of 'winning things' - Anelka, Petit, Cole etc. The main thing being the only indespensible person at Arsenal is Wenger.

And as for being a moron - well one thing I am is someone who was within a mile of the ground yesterday and will be at the JJB next Sunday. You get back in your armchair in Mumbai - and if Wenger isn't making sufficient progress then find yourself another global brand to support.[/quote]

gunnerb · Post by **gunnerb** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:50 pm

Being a big club in the world of the money men doesnt mean trophies it means cash, it means stadium, it means sponsorship it means champions league it means competing for every competition you enter. And Rob, we are in debt no matter what figures are quoted, all they are doing is juggling the money around paying a mortgage over 25 years to suit the purpose of running a football club. Debt to me means owing, if you owe 15000 on your credit card your in debt. We are earning some good money and dont or cant or wont spend too big in the transfer market. For me I have respected Arsenes policy of using youth and we have seen some great players come through. But whats the purpose of having a great big stadium making all that dosh if we dont spend at least some of it? I dont think we can myself or we would have done it.
My final thoughts on this are" IN ARSENE WE TRUST"

Gunnerz4life · Post by **Gunnerz4life** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:22 pm

Cus Geezer wrote:
We are a big club, I dont know what is the idea of a big club for you but for me a big club is one which wins major trophies.
So Sunderland in 1974, Southampton in 1976, West Ham in 1980 or Wimbledon in 1988 were all a 'big club' by way of winning a major trophy that year.

My definition of a big club is one which challenges for the big trophies on a regular basis - despite not winning one since 2005 we've been in finals in the last two of our 'bad' seasons.

Thinking about "how much we did better than last season" each season might be acceptable for the likes of Everton, Aston Villa, Spuds, Newcastle but not for us.
I would think doing better than last season would be a priority for any club - doesn't the club that comes 2nd look to improve on last season.

However if there isnt any reason for not buying proven quality other than Arsene's philopsophy and passion for developing young players and if it actually hampers our chances to win trophies, then you have to be open to possibilities. I dont understand the hoolah over that. I gave him two freaking seasons. And do you honestly believe the likes of Cesc or Gallas would be happy about our improvement each season and stay if we dont win things?
Firstly look at how Chelsea and Liverpool have splashed the cash for the oh so treasured possession of the finished articles with 'experience', look how they haven't improved on last year and have if anything gone backwards.

About players who aren't happy with our rate of progression - name me one player who's left Arsenal and cited 'winning things' and 'ambition' not being sufficient and name me one who has out done us in terms of 'winning things' - Anelka, Petit, Cole etc. The main thing being the only indespensible person at Arsenal is Wenger.

And as for being a moron - well one thing I am is someone who was within a mile of the ground yesterday and will be at the JJB next Sunday. You get back in your armchair in Mumbai - and if Wenger isn't making sufficient progress then find yourself another global brand to support.

[/quote]

Theres so much pointless crap in your post that i dont know where to start. Have I talked about winning just one trophy one fine season? And since you brought up Sunderland, Southampton, West Ham the likes of Bayern Leverkusen and Monaco has also reached CL finals without winning it. Are they big clubs? Dont even get me started on teams who got to the finals of the Carling Cup. I suppose you will be happy "challenging for trophies" each season but not actually winning them.

Big clubs judge their season on trophies won, plain and simple. Not the improvement in their league position. If finishing third or second this season is satisfactory for our players and manager (which I dont think is the case) then theres a serious problem.

And yes lets look at Chelsea. They had spent millions, has there been progress? I dont know what you see but I see they have won 4 trophies in the last 3 years. I see that when the spine of their team was missing either through injury or the ANC this season, they have put out a team consisting the likes of Ballack, Anelka, Makelele and getting results and are alive in 3 competitions and dont have to prioritise like we have to. Now thats a bit of a luxury and not all big clubs could afford that, but to say splashing the cash on good players doesnt help is ridiculous. Jose Mourinho is one of the best coaches in the world, but his absence hasnt really affected them. Why? Cause Avram Grant is a brilliant coach? No cause they have a strong squad that can compete for trophies with a half decent coach. Same with Barca.

As far as Liverpool goes, ive already stated why them splashing the cash hasnt helped earlier in the thread and im not in a mood to repeat it.

In todays world success is the only thing that counts. A player wants to win things, thats why they go to big clubs. Theres never a lack of ambition, but you need to turn that ambition into performance and the performance to success. If God forbid success eludes us for too long, then ambitious players wont stay irrespective of the desire the club possesses.

And yes lets talk about each other's location now to show off our knowledge of football

. I dont give a f*ck how near you live to the ground and what away game you're going to, that neither makes you the greatest Arsenal fan of all time nor a football pundit. As far as supporting another team goes, if you think that just cause my opinion is different than yours, im not as passionate for the club then well you're truly a moron.

augie · Post by **augie** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:38 pm

Rebel I am just back from the villa game and it was in my head the whole way home to run a thread like this(well what else would you expect from the doom and gloom king

).

However I am going to come at this from a totally different angle from the lack of squad depth which is def an absolute joke that should see someones head on the block

The problem that I had yesterday was with the performance and in particular the wing men. I have to say that hleb was fucking woeful and how he wasnt the 1st man subbed I will never know (open the old peepers arsene

) but my main gripe centres around abou diaby. Now I know the lad had a 'mare yesterday and actually got worse as the game went on but I feel the need to stand up for him. Put simply he is neither left footed or a winger and playing him out there is just not giving the boy a chance. He got some almighty stick all game long yesterday and there was a massive cheer when it was announced that he was being subbed

Wenger goes on a lot about giving the young players a chance but what chance has diaby got when played out there ? What is the crowd reaction doing to his confidence ?

I know some of you will point to a lack of another option in that position which of course does come back to the total abuse of position by somebody in the club for the lack of squad investment. Only a fool would come on here claiming satisfaction with our squad and even though a few have disagreed with rebels thoughts, nobody has stated their 100% satisfaction with the squad size and quality. Some of us may differ on whether the lack of depth is going to cost us in the pursuit of trophies but it is also going unmentioned that arsene's use of versitility is killing some of our young players too. There will be many on here that will say that diaby's nerve has gone since that awful injury in mackem country and if that is true then you have to fear for him in the future but his success or failure should be judged when he is given a chance to show what he can do in his proper position - although it looks increasingly likely that by that stage his confidence will be gone too low for recovery

Anyway it has long since been recognised that members on this forum do appear to be split on the rights and wrongs of criticising arsene or the board. For those that think that the great man is untouchable and are happy with his youth policy, ask yourselves if you think that what is happening to diaby is fair and if it would happen if le boss had spent to rectify that problem that was glaringly obvious as far back as last summer. For 12 months now I have been unsure if we have money and wont spend it or if we dont actually have a pot to piss in(ie we're broke) and have said so on occasions. I have asked the question before to those that support the board and wenger 100%, if we do not succeed where should the blame lie and if it turned out that wenger actually has no money to spend would your support for the current board change in any way ? Now I am stating that, in my opinion, if we fuck up what has been our best chance of winning a league for a few years as a result of no squad depth then must be held accountable and have their arse in a sling over it. The "improvement" from 4th to 3rd will not mask what a huge chance will have been blown

Gimp_mask · Post by **Gimp_mask** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:56 pm

Wow - now take a deep breath Augie.

Cus Geezer · Post by **Cus Geezer** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:11 pm

I suppose you will be happy "challenging for trophies" each season but not actually winning them.

1999 - PL Runners Up, FA Cup Semi
2000 - PL Runners Up, UEFA Cup Runners up
2001 - PL Runners Up, FA Cup Runners Up

oh look three seasons of challenging without actually winning anything, maybe we should have sacked Wenger in the summer of 2001, but now we'd be champions of the Universe no doubt.

And BTW - if you want to know the relevance of geography to supporting a side - well it's about not getting stressed out at the thought of looking uncool in a replica shirt while walking around a Mumbai shopping centre because the side isn't the Premiership champions - and with that the ability to look at the club's progress and the manager's work in a rational manner.

Cus Geezer · Post by **Cus Geezer** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:15 pm

Big clubs judge their season on trophies won, plain and simple.

So these days if a side falls out of a champions league position but wins the FA Cup then they'll judge their season as a success because they won a trophy?

Cus Geezer · Post by **Cus Geezer** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:18 pm

I am not calling for Wenger to go - yet.

oh do take a fuck off pill!

He's had four years of this policy of teenage promotions and negative spending and we've won nothing since Pat left.

oh yeah the great god like genius of Vieira - who once suggested that Wenger sign players with more experience, to which Wenger replied 'you weren't experienced when I signed you'.

Milan no doubt allowed Vieira to leave in 1996 because he didn't have the experience, to our gain.

No doubt if Wenger listened to those who post on the online gooner in the summer (who no doubt know so much more about football management than he does) some other club would be enjoying the fruits of Flamini's form this term.