Arsene Wenger and Youth: IS IT WORKING?

[Babatunde]

This thread has just been kicked off because I was following the Wellington Silva story. Now. In case no one is aware, Wellington Silva was supposed to be Arsenal's next big hope when he signed and big things have been expected of him. He was going to be our own Samba boy according to the glowing reports Steve Rowley allegedly gave Wenger.

He is at Levante now and Levant are said to be incredibly dissatisfied with his attitude. It's Silva's second loan spell and he hardly gets a kick at Levante, despite their team being formed of over-the-hill journeymen. Of course he's young, time on his side bla bla etc...sure.

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Now I'm not gonna discredit Wenger too much, he deserves enormous credit for the job he did in helping Fabregas achieving his potential of course, and some of the players we had previously. However, I personally think that since 2003 his judgment in the acquisition of players has been way off - Walcott being a prime example. I don't feel he is capable of developing youth because unlike Ferguson I feel he lacks the balls to discipline them. When you don't discipline them you end up with self-entitled jokers like Denilson, Bendtner and Coquelin.

I think the signing up of young promise is an absolute waste of Arsenal's time on the whole personally. For example I do not see the point in the Oxpot-Chambermaid signing for a fee of up to £14 million. By the time he's actually of any use, Wenger won't be Arsenal manager anymore imo.

I also think back to the likes of Rui Fonte, Nordveit, Lupoli, Botelho etc. A lot of the time I think these players have bags of talent but that Wenger coaches it out of them with bizarre experiments.

I honestly think Denilson and Bendtner could be much much better players than the current players they are if only Wenger actually trusted them in their positions?

I think since 2003, cannot think of a young player Wenger has developed successfully bar RVP potentially. Thoughts?

[SWLGooner]

Wilshere?

[g88ner]

Wilshere?

I could be wrong, but I think Baba is talking about young players Wenger has signed.

I've been very disappointed with the quality of the young players Wenger has signed in recent seasons.

Considering we made a concious effort to give youth a chance, and keep them developing together, I think it's been rather unsuccessful really

In fact, hardly any of the young players Wenger kept faith worth 2, 3 or 4 years ago are in the team now, so it's been a bit of a disaster in some ways.

Song, Djourou and Theo are probably Wenger's only "success" stories in the first team squad (although I'm probably missing on obvious one) and none of them would get a game an the other top clubs, I reckon.

And loaning out Denilson, Bendtner and Vela is a disaster, too. These players are of the right age now and have been developed and given endless faith and opportunities (Vela less so) yet are now kicking around on loan at lesser clubs - that huge error of judgement over recent years must really stick in the back of Wenger's throat.

Edit: there's Chesney who has recently broken into the first team, but I was more thinking about the recent seasons of endless faith and chances given to players who we knew weren't good enough YEARS ago.

[SteveO 35]

I've said many times that I think the whole 'youth development' thing is a big myth and one that the club has used to disguise the lack of investment in the squad whilst pursuing the next big property development project.

When Wenger arrived he talked about 10 years before top class English talent would make the grade (not that I give a shit whether they are English or not).

The FA Youth Cup winning side at the start of the previous decade were supposed to be the next big thing but without dragging up all the details of every player involved, nearly all of them went on to achieve nothing and ended up in lower foreign leagues or slipping away through non-League

Then we had the so-called wonderboy foreign players that our world class scouting system was unearthing - Quincy, Lupoli, Aliadiere, Cabellero, Barazite and so on through to Vela, Wellington and the current bunch.

The success with youth was further masked by us exploiting employment law loopholes on the Continent, nicking Anelka and Fabregas when their home clubs could not offer them the type of professional terms available here.

In terms of genuinely home grown talent I would say that Wilshere was the first potential world class player to emerge since Cashley Hole (a player we chose to let go for 5k per week as he approached his best years).

The majority of the 'wonderboys' for my money, have been failures.

Wellington just sounds like Quincy all over again - he had a brilliant Carling Cup game, performed a few tricks, proved to be a cocky little fuckwit and was let go

[clockender1]

Have any of those kids rejected gone on to be successful though ? - and what about Bentley and Pennant ? Bags of talent but crap attitude, and ended up as journeymen.

Young players are a numbers game, for every gibbs, chesney, wilshire, Ramsey etc etc there are five losers with attitude or not enough skill.

It happens with pros from the lower leagues too - both Jimmy Carter and Eddie McGoldrick looked quality on their debuts, but within weeks looked crap.

It's a lottery, it always has been - under George we had Gus ceaser, Ian Selley, morrow, Hughes, Jensen etc who were mediocre at best, but George gets a pass because he found bouldie and Dixon, and brought through Adams, parlour and the three degrees.

[SteveO 35]

Have any of those kids rejected gone on to be successful though ? - and what about Bentley and Pennant ? Bags of talent but crap attitude, and ended up as journeymen.

Young players are a numbers game, for every gibbs, chesney, wilshire, Ramsey etc etc there are five losers with attitude or not enough skill.

It happens with pros from the lower leagues too - both Jimmy Carter and Eddie McGoldrick looked quality on their debuts, but within weeks looked crap.

It's a lottery, it always has been - under George we had Gus ceaser, Ian Selley, morrow, Hughes, Jensen etc who were mediocre at best, but George gets a pass because he found bouldie and Dixon, and brought through Adams, parlour and the three degrees.

Well, you've answered it there yourself. I would say that building a title winning side from players scouted almost entirely from this country and by genuine youth products like Adams, Rocastle and Thomas was quite an achievement. Just like when United did it in the 90s, and how Liverpool kept doing it throughout the 80s.

I sometimes wonder why we spend the money we do on global scouting networks when clubs like Southampton are able to produce three players in five years that generated around £40m in transfer proceeds, and how West Ham as the 4th biggest club in London have produced players that have gone on to be established internationals and multiple trophy winners elsewhere (like we did with Cole but precious few others).

When did we last produce even a top class PL striker for example? We haven't come close to producing even a Welbeck or a Sturridge recently

[clockender1]

Oh I agree Stevo, it was a massive achievement. But I think at least Mersey and Davis had already played for Brentford by the time George strolled up, and it may have just been luck to have a great year class - manyoo the same, as certainly after the three degrees left we had no one in the youth system to replace them, just the dross i mentioned.

And that, as much as the bungs did for our George and he certainly didn't Repeat it elsewhere either.

[QuartzGooner]

SteveO says most of what I would have said. We had a very similar thread to this a few months back.

Wenger has never claimed to be a "Youth Developer".
He said he had to turn to youth when the stadium finance meant there was cashflow squeeze a few years ago.

He also got fair credit for buying some foreign players when they were late teens/early twenties and giving them a chance when other clubs perhaps marginalised them or were obscure clubs.

Wenger himself has said he can only take a player so far, but that between 18-21 it is up to the player himself to get his head right and be professional.

Wenger or any other coach can speak to a player and warn him many times if he is showing a lack of professionalism, but the player himself takes ultimate responsibility for his attitude to the game.

Wellington is very talented, but if he wants to mess around and blow his chance of a career at high level, then that is up to him.

[Babatunde]

SteveO has made an excellent point: how many quality or very decent strikers, has Arsene Wenger produced? I am not even talking Michael Owen at Liverpool levels here, I am talking Danny Welbeck and Daniel Sturridge here? Anelka we nicked from PSG.

I am of course talking mainly about young players Wenger has brought into the club since 2003. To my mind, when you consider how much in wages has been spent on the Quincy, Velas (he's on £45k a week Ffs), Aliadieres etc...serious questions need to be asked of Wenger and just who on our global scouting department payroll makes these ridiculous calls.

According to the recent Football Finance report, Arsenal spend more on their global scouting network than any other Premier League club. That to me is a farcical and criminal waste of money when one considers the amount of mediocrity that's been brought in. For example, our scouting department advised against the signing of Luka Modric, claiming Eduardo would be more suited to the league and that Modric would struggle with the physicality of it. Oh dear. Sure, every club makes a boob fair enough...

The point here is, I honestly get sick of hearing the line 'Arsenal cannot compete' etc etc. Arsenal can compete with every club in the league for a player with the exception of Citeh. Arsenal could even compete to an extent with Chelski and here's why. Arsenal's advantage - and the reason we spent so much on youth and scouting etc...was to give us a competitive advantage over the Citehs and Chelskis of this world.

For me it's just another example of the sheer amount of money that is frittered away at the club. Form Diaby's wages to the global scouting network, I honestly think the whole youth thing needs to be ditched. It hasn't worked for eight years now!!!

[SteveO 35]

I dunno Baba, you build me up buttercup then you let me down.....






....with that little dig about Abou at the end

[kiwomya]

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

[flash gunner]

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

[Rocky Number Seven]

I honestly think Denilson and Bendtner could be much much better players than the current players they are if only Wenger actually trusted them in their positions?

I think since 2003, cannot think of a young player Wenger has developed successfully bar RVP potentially. Thoughts?

Good subject to discuss Baba but have to agree with quartz in that i feel wengers hand has been forced more on signing youth in order to pay the stadium debt. The only expensive "youth" signings have been Theo and AOC, but at the time these were the two most promising youngsters in the country with most clubs scouting them. We paid the going rate for these boys and ultimately I would rather have both of them lining up for us than against us. Even Theo who still gets critisised but i think people forget he is still just 22 and is about to earn his 20th England cap.

With regards to other young talent since 2003, there have been many that have come into the side. You mention Cesc and RVP already, Clichy was the youngest player to win a league title in 2004 and was a key member of the first team for years and looks set to win another title at Manchester City along with Samir Nasri who was signed when he was still only 21. In fact many players he has signed as youngsters and developed have gone on to play for Europes top clubs. Cesc is back at Barca, Adebayor was at Real MAdrid last year and Flamini is currently with AC Milan.

Of the current squad that I havent already mentioned Diaby, Szczesny, Ramsey, Song, Wilshere, Djourou and Gibbs are all full internationals that have all come through the ranks or were signed as youngsters and when fit are first team players as well as having Fabianski, Frimpong, Jenkinson, Coquelin and Eastmond on the fringes. Denilson also played almost every game for the club for almost two years so cannot agree Wenger didnt show him any trust. If anything he trusted him too much and many times he was playing when he really shouldnt have been.

Good post though and a good topic, but i think for every one that has seen their career go off the rails (Pennant, Bentley, Quincy) there are those that have succeeded after arsenal or are still showing promise of fufilling their potential.

As for decent strikers he has developed.... have you never heard of Thierry Henry??

[kiwomya]

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

I guess it depends who you look at as young. I look up to about the age of 22. That includes players like Adebayor, Flamini, Walcott & Clichy. We also had Kolo at quite a young age. A few of our youngsters still occupy positions in Premier League teams aswell.

Bendtner is only 23 mate. He's clearly a good player but not good enough for Arsenal. Who knows with Denilson.

Had it not been for impatience we would have signed Yaya Toure as a youngster as well!

[flash gunner]

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

I guess it depends who you look at as young. I look up to about the age of 22. That includes players like Adebayor, Flamini, Walcott & Clichy. We also had Kolo at quite a young age. A few of our youngsters still occupy positions in Premier League teams aswell.

Bendtner is only 23 mate. He's clearly a good player but not good enough for Arsenal. Who knows with Denilson.

Had it not been for impatience we would have signed Yaya Toure as a youngster as well!

Adebayor and Flamini? Really? Youre clutching at straws for names now and if Bendtner and Denilson arent good enough for Arsenal you can hardly call them a success, surely a sign of success is that the players we produce are Arsenal quality