Arsene Wenger and Youth: IS IT WORKING?

[Rocky Number Seven]

I have said this for a while but: Ever since Cesc Fabregas arrived at the club in 2003, I feel Wenger has been living off a reputation when it comes to the development of Youth.

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

I guess it depends who you look at as young. I look up to about the age of 22. That includes players like Adebayor, Flamini, Walcott & Clichy. We also had Kolo at quite a young age. A few of our youngsters still occupy positions in Premier League teams aswell.

Bendtner is only 23 mate. He's clearly a good player but not good enough for Arsenal. Who knows with Denilson.

Had it not been for impatience we would have signed Yaya Toure as a youngster as well!

Adebayor and Flamini? Really? Youre clutching at straws for names now and if Bendtner and Denilson arent good enough for Arsenal you can hardly call them a success, surely a sign of success is that the players we produce are Arsenal quality

Flamini won Serie A with Milan last year, Adebayor the Copa Del Rey with Madrid.... I'd certainly say thats bettering themselves from 4th in the league and getting knocked out after a no show by the team at OT in the cup wouldnt you?

[Supagoon]

Well it hasn't delivered any trophies like wenger or we hoped.

I think it was convenient to buy youth players considering we had loans to pay back after building the emirates. And we have to admit despite everyone claiming we'd fall out of the top 4 we never did until...

The problem with what happened was the idea of near equal HIGH pay for the kids, thought this was very flawed thinking from management. Also wenger seemed to believe that players who were more advanced would sit and wait for other players to develop. Cesc waiting for a GK to come through?? no chance.

So it saved us money, we made healthy profits from them, and we got some talent out of it. We saw a truly world class midfielder in Cesc, and under other regimes Wilshere may have been moved on early in his career.

Youth policy had to be done, post emirates, but not to the obsession that we did do it.

[flash gunner]

Yes it's working. Not to the same degree that it was a few years back but working never the less.

He earned that reputation by the teams he put together. Not every young player will turn into a superstar. Like someone else said - he's never claimed to be this "youth developer".

It's because of what Arsenal achieved that all the other sides want a piece of the action. The ability to get a player for little money and sell on at a huge profit is not something that many clubs can do - this is what others admire and what the club are happy with Wenger doing.

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

I guess it depends who you look at as young. I look up to about the age of 22. That includes players like Adebayor, Flamini, Walcott & Clichy. We also had Kolo at quite a young age. A few of our youngsters still occupy positions in Premier League teams aswell.

Bendtner is only 23 mate. He's clearly a good player but not good enough for Arsenal. Who knows with Denilson.

Had it not been for impatience we would have signed Yaya Toure as a youngster as well!

Adebayor and Flamini? Really? Youre clutching at straws for names now and if Bendtner and Denilson arent good enough for Arsenal you can hardly call them a success, surely a sign of success is that the players we produce are Arsenal quality

Flamini won Serie A with Milan last year, Adebayor the Copa Del Rey with Madrid.... I'd certainly say thats bettering themselves from 4th in the league and getting knocked out after a no show by the team at OT in the cup wouldnt you?

Absolutely but we cant count them as coming out of our youth system, can we? That was my point

[Rocky Number Seven]

To what degree has it worked then mate? From what i can see its a big failure at this moment. If you take Bendtner and Denilson we have 2 of out supposed star-lets that we have given away for a year due to the fact that no one wants them. Its failing big time and the Wenger youth policy is a myth if you look back over the last 10 years

I guess it depends who you look at as young. I look up to about the age of 22. That includes players like Adebayor, Flamini, Walcott & Clichy. We also had Kolo at quite a young age. A few of our youngsters still occupy positions in Premier League teams aswell.

Bendtner is only 23 mate. He's clearly a good player but not good enough for Arsenal. Who knows with Denilson.

Had it not been for impatience we would have signed Yaya Toure as a youngster as well!

Adebayor and Flamini? Really? Youre clutching at straws for names now and if Bendtner and Denilson arent good enough for Arsenal you can hardly call them a success, surely a sign of success is that the players we produce are Arsenal quality

Flamini won Serie A with Milan last year, Adebayor the Copa Del Rey with Madrid.... I'd certainly say thats bettering themselves from 4th in the league and getting knocked out after a no show by the team at OT in the cup wouldnt you?

Absolutely but we cant count them as coming out of our youth system, can we? That was my point

I think it depends on what you percieve as "the youth project". Flamini was signed at 20, Adebayor at 21. To me this is an example of signing youngsters with a hope of nurturing their potential which is how I read the original post (mentions of RVP, also signed at 20) as well as those that have come through the youth teams.

[flash gunner]

Its exactly how you perceive the youtuh project and as far as im concerned neither Flamini or Adebayor are youth products of Arsenal

[kiwomya]

Its exactly how you perceive the youtuh project and as far as im concerned neither Flamini or Adebayor are youth products of Arsenal

What age do you class as youth?

[flash gunner]

Its exactly how you perceive the youtuh project and as far as im concerned neither Flamini or Adebayor are youth products of Arsenal

What age do you class as youth?

Someone who has been developed by and played for the youth teams, not someone (who in Adebayors case) was a full international before we bought him

[Never Outgunned]

but George gets a pass because he found bouldie and Dixon, and brought through Adams, parlour and the three degrees.

If you're talking about Davis, Rocastle and Thomas they were not the 'three degrees', that was Batson, Regis and Cunningham 10 years earlier.

Rocastle, Davis and Thomas were the next generation - they were De La Soul

[dvbrisgooner1]

SteveO has made an excellent point: how many quality or very decent strikers, has Arsene Wenger produced? I am not even talking Michael Owen at Liverpool levels here, I am talking Danny Welbeck and Daniel Sturridge here? Anelka we nicked from PSG..

Ah, those proven talents.

I am no Wenger apologist but you seem to always want to make a point against the man, but then illustrate it with bad examples. I would also say that Wenger did pretty well in developing Henry and Weah. Anelka might have been nicked, but he was 17 when Wenger got him, hardly an undeveloped talent in my view.

[RioGooner]

Well, i never knew what Arsenal saw in Wellington, he never showed much in the 1st team apps he had around here and was always deemed as a man with no discipline that thinks he's so good that he can't be bothered to make an effort. The fact that he's Levante's backup and still can't rise to the occasion just shows how shit his attitude is.

The youth signings , AOC and Theo apart were cheap and all but they were mostly just wrong, got to adjust the policy so we do get the next best thing instead of this 2nd class players we've been getting.

[SteveO 35]

SteveO has made an excellent point: how many quality or very decent strikers, has Arsene Wenger produced? I am not even talking Michael Owen at Liverpool levels here, I am talking Danny Welbeck and Daniel Sturridge here? Anelka we nicked from PSG..

Ah, those proven talents.

I am no Wenger apologist but you seem to always want to make a point against the man, but then illustrate it with bad examples. I would also say that Wenger did pretty well in developing Henry and Weah. Anelka might have been nicked, but he was 17 when Wenger got him, hardly an undeveloped talent in my view.

Nobody said that Welbeck and Sturridge were proven talents. In fact the word "even" suggests that we know they are not world beaters but certainly still better than anything we've produced in the striker department recently. It isn't just Wenger's fault - its the whole sorry youth coaching and development team

Going back to Henry and Weah's a bit desperate isn't it. One was already a world cup winner and signed from Juventus and the other you're going back 15 years or more

We are importing mediocre also rans like Chamakh because frankly they are still better than any of the youth talents that have come through the ranks. Aliadiere, Lupoli, Quincy, Stokes, Barrett etc have all been tipped for great things but never came to anything. Surely a club of our size with its level of investment in youth scouting, coaching and development should be able to produce a decent striker once a decade ?

It isn't just about Wenger but something must be wrong eh?

[TeeCee]

I'd say a 'youth' is under the adult age ie: 18. To call 20 or 21yo men 'youths' is stretching it a very long way!!

[QuartzGooner]

but George gets a pass because he found bouldie and Dixon, and brought through Adams, parlour and the three degrees.

If you're talking about Davis, Rocastle and Thomas they were not the 'three degrees', that was Batson, Regis and Cunningham 10 years earlier.

Rocastle, Davis and Thomas were the next generation - they were De La Soul

I think of them as a sort of "Trio" but Davis was interviewed and said he was mildly irritated by people who thought like me because he was older than Rocastle and Thomas, and had made his debut in 1980.

[highburyJD]

hear some dismissive 'Golden Generation' quips whilst dismissing Arsenal's youth setup
Wenger has undeniably bought in some good young players and sold them at a massive profit (Anelka and Fabregas spring to mind)
but if we are going to talk about golden generations I thinks its players who have won the FA youth cup

our original 'golden generation' is obviously Adams, Davis, Rocky, Thomas, Merson, Keown, Hayes (Quinn/Caesar?)
several of whom won the FA youth cup I think
can't find the teams but we beat Doncaster 6-1 in '88
guess Davis and Adams were in the first team already by then...
thought TA had won that

as a counterbalance from our '94 youthcup winning team nobody even made it as a top division player (Hughes briefly for us I guess- remember he scored a few times v Chels):
1 GK Noel Imber
2 DF Timmy Griggs
3 DF Ross Taylor
4 MF Jamie Howell
5 DF Graeme Hall
6 DF Chris McDonald
7 MF Michael Black
8 MF Matthew Rose (captain)
9 FW Matthew Rawlins
10 MF Gavin McGowan
11 MF Stephen Hughes
Sub MF Adrian Clarke
Sub Drake

so here is the start of a Wenger backed youth setup
99/00 winners - none made it at Arsenal
majority made it as players (IMO Galli would have also without tragic accident) Bothroyd even played for England once (I said Jerome Thomas would but looks like I was wrong)
1 GK Graham Stack
2 DF Israel da Silva
3 DF Liam Chilvers
4 MF David Noble
5 DF John Halls
6 DF Niccolo Galli
7 MF Steve Sidwell
8 MF Rohan Ricketts
9 FW Graham Barrett
10 FW Jay Bothroyd
11 FW Jerome Thomas
Sub GK Craig Holloway
Sub DF Moritz Volz
Sub MF Stephen Santry
Sub FW Jonathan Osei-Kuffour
Sub FW Jérémie Aliadière
Sub FW Carlin Itonga
2000–01: Arsenal vs Blackburn Rovers (5–0, 1–3)
again none made it at Arsenal but Volz and Penant are additions who also made top division careers
No. Position Player
1 GK Craig Holloway
2 DF Alex Bailey
3 DF Sebastian Svard
4 DF Ryan Garry
5 DF Nicky Nicolau
6 DF Moritz Volz
7 MF Steve Sidwell
8 MF Rohan Ricketts
9 FW Jerome Thomas
10 MF Jermaine Pennant
11 FW Jérémie Aliadière
Sub GK Michael Jordan
Sub DF Justin Hoyte
Sub DF Ben Chorley
Sub MF Stephen Santry
Sub FW Jermaine Brown
Sub FW Carlin Itonga

then its the first genuine Wenger (thingy hall graduates) generation
1st leg
No. Position Player Stats
1 GK James Shea
2 DF Craig Eastmond
3 DF Thomas Cruise
4 MF Emmanuel Frimpong 17'
5 DF Kyle Bartley
6 DF Luke Ayling
7 MF Henri Lansbury
8 MF Francis Coquelin
9 FW Gilles Sunu 75'
10 MF Jack Wilshere 90'
11 MF Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (c)
Sub FW Rhys Murphy 75'
Sub GK Charlie Mann
Sub FW Sanchez Watt 17'
Sub MF Conor Henderson 90'
Sub DF Cedric Evina
2nd leg

1 GK James Shea
2 DF Craig Eastmond
3 DF Thomas Cruise 83'
4 MF Jack Wilshere
5 DF Kyle Bartley
6 DF Luke Ayling
7 MF Henri Lansbury
8 MF Francis Coquelin
9 FW Gilles Sunu 68'
10 MF Sanchez Watt
11 MF Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (c) 83'
Sub FW Rhys Murphy 68'
Sub GK Charlie Mann
Sub MF Oguzhan Ozyakup
Sub MF Conor Henderson 83'
Sub DF Cedric Evina 83'

of those Wilshere is already an established England player
but the captain has been moved on (currently Ipswich reserves)
we still have hopes for Frimpong and Coquelin this season
Ozyakup came off the bench in the beer cup
and Lansbury and Bartley may well still make it if they impress on loan

so from that list Sidwell, Bothroyd, Thomas, Penant and Volz all made a significant amount of top division appearances
but only Wilshere so far has made it for us

picking only youthcup winning sides obviously skips arguably our top products: Ca$hley and Cesc (and the #1 Szczesney!)
and the ones we made good money on like Bentley
and some international players Larrson, Djourou, Traore, Stokes (Owusu-Abeyie?)
but the 'golden generation' tag I take as attached to youth winners

[flash gunner]

hear some dismissive 'Golden Generation' quips whilst dismissing Arsenal's youth setup
Wenger has undeniably bought in some good young players and sold them at a massive profit (Anelka and Fabregas spring to mind)
but if we are going to talk about golden generations I thinks its players who have won the FA youth cup

our original 'golden generation' is obviously Adams, Davis, Rocky, Thomas, Merson, Keown, Hayes (Quinn/Caesar?)
several of whom won the FA youth cup I think
can't find the teams but we beat Doncaster 6-1 in '88
guess Davis and Adams were in the first team already by then...
thought TA had won that

as a counterbalance from our '94 youthcup winning team nobody even made it as a top division player (Hughes briefly for us I guess- remember he scored a few times v Chels):
1 GK Noel Imber
2 DF Timmy Griggs
3 DF Ross Taylor
4 MF Jamie Howell
5 DF Graeme Hall
6 DF Chris McDonald
7 MF Michael Black
8 MF Matthew Rose (captain)
9 FW Matthew Rawlins
10 MF Gavin McGowan
11 MF Stephen Hughes
Sub MF Adrian Clarke
Sub Drake

so here is the start of a Wenger backed youth setup
99/00 winners - none made it at Arsenal
majority made it as players (IMO Galli would have also without tragic accident) Bothroyd even played for England once (I said Jerome Thomas would but looks like I was wrong)
1 GK Graham Stack
2 DF Israel da Silva
3 DF Liam Chilvers
4 MF David Noble
5 DF John Halls
6 DF Niccolo Galli
7 MF Steve Sidwell
8 MF Rohan Ricketts
9 FW Graham Barrett
10 FW Jay Bothroyd
11 FW Jerome Thomas
Sub GK Craig Holloway
Sub DF Moritz Volz
Sub MF Stephen Santry
Sub FW Jonathan Osei-Kuffour
Sub FW Jérémie Aliadière
Sub FW Carlin Itonga
2000–01: Arsenal vs Blackburn Rovers (5–0, 1–3)
again none made it at Arsenal but Volz and Penant are additions who also made top division careers
No. Position Player
1 GK Craig Holloway
2 DF Alex Bailey
3 DF Sebastian Svard
4 DF Ryan Garry
5 DF Nicky Nicolau
6 DF Moritz Volz
7 MF Steve Sidwell
8 MF Rohan Ricketts
9 FW Jerome Thomas
10 MF Jermaine Pennant
11 FW Jérémie Aliadière
Sub GK Michael Jordan
Sub DF Justin Hoyte
Sub DF Ben Chorley
Sub MF Stephen Santry
Sub FW Jermaine Brown
Sub FW Carlin Itonga

then its the first genuine Wenger (thingy hall graduates) generation
1st leg
No. Position Player Stats
1 GK James Shea
2 DF Craig Eastmond
3 DF Thomas Cruise
4 MF Emmanuel Frimpong 17'
5 DF Kyle Bartley
6 DF Luke Ayling
7 MF Henri Lansbury
8 MF Francis Coquelin
9 FW Gilles Sunu 75'
10 MF Jack Wilshere 90'
11 MF Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (c)
Sub FW Rhys Murphy 75'
Sub GK Charlie Mann
Sub FW Sanchez Watt 17'
Sub MF Conor Henderson 90'
Sub DF Cedric Evina
2nd leg

1 GK James Shea
2 DF Craig Eastmond
3 DF Thomas Cruise 83'
4 MF Jack Wilshere
5 DF Kyle Bartley
6 DF Luke Ayling
7 MF Henri Lansbury
8 MF Francis Coquelin
9 FW Gilles Sunu 68'
10 MF Sanchez Watt
11 MF Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (c) 83'
Sub FW Rhys Murphy 68'
Sub GK Charlie Mann
Sub MF Oguzhan Ozyakup
Sub MF Conor Henderson 83'
Sub DF Cedric Evina 83'

of those Wilshere is already an established England player
but the captain has been moved on (currently Ipswich reserves)
we still have hopes for Frimpong and Coquelin this season
Ozyakup came off the bench in the beer cup
and Lansbury and Bartley may well still make it if they impress on loan

so from that list Sidwell, Bothroyd, Thomas, Penant and Volz all made a significant amount of top division appearances
but only Wilshere so far has made it for us

picking only youthcup winning sides obviously skips arguably our top products: Ca$hley and Cesc (and the #1 Szczesney!)
and the ones we made good money on like Bentley
and some international players Larrson, Djourou, Traore, Stokes (Owusu-Abeyie?)
but the 'golden generation' tag I take as attached to youth winners

So going back to the thread title - No its not working