what does it take to make people happy?

[DB10GOONER]

Got to admit, so far I'm underwelmed

seriously? surprised to hear that,
it's like a parallel universe this board,
every Gooner I talk to in the real world is delighted we've signed Podolski and Giroud...

It's these sort of sweeping statements that undermine your credibility JD. Because 1 member on here posts something you don't agree with, then it's the whole forum to blame?

Anyway, the signings of Podolski and Giroud have to be taken in context. If we keep RVP then they are good signings on the face of it as we retain proven quality. If we lose RVP (word in the Italian press is we will) then I too would be VERY underwhelmed by signing two (as yet) UNPROVEN (in the PL) strikers that may or may not be successes.

The Song issue is a priority for me. We will not win the PL or the CL with him as first choice DM. Song at his worst is a liabilty, at his best a grindingly average player that picks out 3 or 4 great passes a season. He is not good enough to be first choice in such a vital role as DM. He is a defensive liabilty, cannot tackle without fouling, gets caught square-on at the halfway line as the oppo stream past him, cannot pass accurately enough often enough, and pisses posession away far too often whilst under no real pressure or by dawdling on the ball. He also has the dangerous habit of panic-passing the ball to team mates that are too tightly marked, setting them up for a clatter from oppo defenders of the Stoke variety. Would I retain him as a back up? Maybe. But only until a better 2nd choice DM developed from within the squad, then I'd get rid of Song and free up another exhorbitant wage.

A quality DM is vital. Song is not a quality DM or indeed a quality anything on the football pitch.

[franksav63]

Got to admit, so far I'm underwelmed

seriously? surprised to hear that,
it's like a parallel universe this board,
every Gooner I talk to in the real world is delighted we've signed Podolski and Giroud...

Well if you're going just to cut out part of my quote without the other points then it's easy to do that, how many goals did we concede last season? Our against record is steadily getting worse and so far Wenger's fix for this is to buy attacking players, Giroud, who has only played a couple of seasons in the top league in France and Podolski who, at the moment, looks Germany's worst player (playing internationally), so yes, so far I'm underwelmed but willing to see what else he does because much more needs to be done imo.

[I Hate Hleb]

About an ounce of good quality skunk and a litre bottle of JD per week usually does it for me.

[mikeyb772001]

if we keep RVP i will be happy. along with pod and giroud we could be a threat and at least we show ambition

[LeftfootlegendGooner]

About an ounce of good quality skunk and a litre bottle of JD per week usually does it for me.

I'm with you brother hleb

With regard to the football question, I am happy that we have concluded some early transfers and they seem decent signings at that (although poldi was underwhelming in the ec), but if RVP is sold and we start the season with these two new strikers and the rest of the non-strikers we have then we are gonna struggle IMO.

It wouldn't be such a struggle if we get a top class keeper, DM and left back (I would also add world class CD but that's being greedy ) and then we can at least drastically reduce the amount of goals we ship, this then puts less pressure on the new strikers because having the burden of having to score 4 or 5 (or fekin 9) goals to win a game could affect their nerves somewhat

[highburyJD]

Got to admit, so far I'm underwelmed

seriously? surprised to hear that,
it's like a parallel universe this board,
every Gooner I talk to in the real world is delighted we've signed Podolski and Giroud...

Is that a conditional delighted ? I mean will they be happy with those signings if/when rvp goes and no other striker is brought in ? I think most fans opinions on these signings, mine included, are on hold until they see how the rest of the transfer window pans out cos if they are brought in to replace rather than supplement rvp then I dont see the fans reactions being too positive

Yep, "delighted" is very much conditional for me.

Sign Podolski & Giroud + keep RvP = bloody delighted! - strength in depth and plenty of options.

Sign Podolski & Giroud + sell RvP and not bring in another striker = a little worried to be honest

It's a waiting game until the transfer window shuts... only then can we really judge the summer's work. And obviously, until I've seen plenty of Giroud and Podolski in an Arsenal shirt, I can't really comment on their quality. Fingers crossed they're as good as we all hope though.

I totally agree with augie and g88ner
we're only good enough up top if we retain RVP
but now, whilst the underwhelmed point is made, we still have him

It's these sort of sweeping statements that undermine your credibility JD. Because 1 member on here posts something you don't agree with, then it's the whole forum to blame?

my point wasn't just about that post
this board is far more consistently negative than any real group of Gooners I've met in Islington or elsewhere
ever fan has their tactical soapboxes/players we don't rate but it can feel like theres very little positivity about anything here
oh and 'credibility' ?? you gonna lend me money?

Anyway, the signings of Podolski and Giroud have to be taken in context. If we keep RVP then they are good signings on the face of it as we retain proven quality. If we lose RVP (word in the Italian press is we will) then I too would be VERY underwhelmed by signing two (as yet) UNPROVEN (in the PL) strikers that may or may not be successes.

as before agreed (although there aren't many proven Prem strikers I'd like us to sign instead)

The Song issue is a priority for me. We will not win the PL or the CL with him as first choice DM.

said it before, totally disagree on this

Song at his worst is a liabilty, at his best a grindingly average player that picks out 3 or 4 great passes a season.

Song has his poor games and will often make a memorable mistake even in his better ones but if we're going to be doing DB10 credibility credit checks - then you're bust. Song's key pass stats where up there with David Silva and Fabregas. He got about 3 times more assists than passes you're willing to 'credit' him with

He is not good enough to be first choice in such a vital role as DM. He is a defensive liabilty, cannot tackle without fouling, gets caught square-on at the halfway line as the oppo stream past him, cannot pass accurately enough often enough, and pisses posession away far too often whilst under no real pressure or by dawdling on the ball. He also has the dangerous habit of panic-passing the ball to team mates that are too tightly marked, setting them up for a clatter from oppo defenders of the Stoke variety. Would I retain him as a back up? Maybe. But only until a better 2nd choice DM developed from within the squad, then I'd get rid of Song and free up another exhorbitant wage.

A quality DM is vital. Song is not a quality DM or indeed a quality anything on the football pitch.

matter of opinion whether he's good enough,
if he was known to be available there would be plenty of top clubs amongst his suitors
would be no point in keeping him as backup whilst his value decreases

[the playing mantis]

no matter how many times there faces are rubbed in they still will not learn or see whatsright in front of them. people only see what they want to see regardless of the cold hard evidence in front of them.

the DM position is absolutely crucial. petit, gilberto, flamini. when these 3 players were in the side we won and contended. since we didnt replace flam we have not contended. simple db10 is spot on as long as we rely on song we will never contend for the CL or PL again. people are so blinded by loyalty to current first teamers and so deprived of what a decent DM looks like, that they hail the transformation of song from atrocious to merely sub standard as proof hes a world class player good enough to be a regular for us. shocking. look at our defensive record. its getting worse. who has been the defensive shild infront of the back 4 whilst its been getting worse? its not rocket science.

unless this position is resolved i will not be happy as we wont be able to contend, we will score plenty of goals if rvp stay, and im delighted if gir and pod are supplementing rvp (but peed of if they are replacing him and a striker of similar calibre is not signed too), but unless a proper dm is signed, we will continue to concede too many and undermine ourselves. its absolutely key we strengthen DM position. only then can we judge if the defence it self is shit or not. i suspect with a proper shield they will look good.

if we do and retain rvp i will be happy and we will be able to contend. personally i think we also need a creative midfielder with a bit of craf, capable of opening up a game on his own and creating a chance out of nothing, when a games tight and the defence is packed, something we have lacked since cesc and to a much lesser extent, nasri left.

ifwe kept rvp, signed a proper dm, and a creative midfielder then i think we would have a real chance of the title.

in reality the best we can hope for is a dm signing and rvp staying, whilst what i think will happen is rvp leaving, not being replaced and maybe a unknown ligue 1 kid being signed as a nondescript midfielder.

[highburyJD]

the DM position is absolutely crucial.

indisputable

petit, gilberto, flamini. when these 3 players were in the side we won and contended. since we didnt replace flam we have not contended.

didn't win anything with the Flamster, we were contenders but fell away
as we did season before last with Song.
Your phrase

what a decent DM looks like

made me think about Petit, Gilberto and Flamini, who are very different midfielders:

Emmanuel played as left of 2 centremids in a 4-4-2 both he and Paddy were all action players,
Vieira naturally suited the box to box role and got significant support from the Romford Pele dropping in
Overmars on the left was almost an auxilliary striker meaning Petit had to get closer to Winterburn
Petit's tackling was impeccable and as a converted fullback his defensive reading of the game was a massive attribute
still not sure I'd call either midfielder in a 4-4-2 a DM

Gilberto first came to prominence playing for Brazil (too me - I think Wenger might have said to him as well)
'02 Brazil played 3-5-2 with wingbacks so he really was a true DM
Not just a sweeper in front of the back 3 he often dropped in letting Edmilson step forward and be the passer from defence
or even as a 2nd CB with the totally lame Leeds reject Roque Junior ("world cup winner Roque Junior" for those who like such labels) when both Lucio and Edmilson bombed forward
Edmilson and Lucio both bombed forward.
Gilberto was positionally excellent, excellent in the air, read the ball (and danger) early and was strong in the challenge
'The invisible wall' was responsive, he waited and opposition attacks bounced off him

Flamini's main role was winning the ball back but he was a terrier not a wall,
he constantly closed the ball at breakneck speed, driving the tempo of the game, making the other team play as fast as possible testing their technique. Fabregas was an excellent counterpart to this, instinctively cutting out the easiest ball. For a high tempo pressure game to work, as Barcelona and Spain have shown, you need the whole team to close quickly. Flamini's amazing fitness meant he could defensively cover a large zone and Cesc could work off the edges of that. It was at a period where our width was being traded in exchange for posessional dominance (Hleb, Diaby and Rosicky coming inside from 'wide' roles). Yes Flamster drove our defensive tempo but bet his average position was way ahead of Gilberto's.

Song is another type of DM, I think Wenger wants the ball closed fast by our front 4/5 and our DM to be Xabi Alonso-esque (making Arteta our Bousquets - 2 semi DM's)
of course playing like this you are most likely to be punished
a) losing the ball in the transition from defence to attack
b) when your DM is exposed in 'open water' on the counter attack
It's a calculated gamble. After games, especially on here, losing the ball 'early' in a transition is something Song get's hammered for. IMO the nature of our play means Song has to hold the ball and turn in sometimes dangerous places because of his great strength I actually see this part of his game as an asset (aware that may irritate some on here - my opinion is pretty much the opposite of the consensus on this). When we've had Cesc, Wilshere or (whisper it) Denilson good early options are almost always on. When Arteta was missing Song had some of his weakest games. Our wide players need to improve in being available - if both Gervinho and Walcott only look for balls in behind (as was sometimes the case) you vacate the midfield and it's easy to cut out your options - not the fault of the exposed DM

I think Wenger will want to build on the Song/Arteta axis
and let Wilshere and Rosicky fight for the furthest forward berth
I would like to see RVP tried as our attacking midfielder and Jack in a wide forward position but don't see it happening

OK too much positional chat... back to the moaning

[northbank123]

I would like to see a proper DM as our current set-up is too fragile but I don't think it was really until Arteta got injured that teams were playing through us regularly with ease, the 'DM' label is used as too much of an easy-fix by some people.Take Fulham away: yes, a quality DM would have helped stem the tide against us in the second half, but at the end of the day we lost the game because we shockingly failed to deal with two hopeful punts into the box. For all the talk about what brilliant football both sides played, particularly in midfield, the next two games against Swansea and United were lost (in my view) primarily due to the inexperience and ineptitude of auxiliary full-backs such as Miquel and Djourou, combined with a complete inability to retain possession.

Before the anti-Song lynch mob tear me to pieces I reiterate that I don't believe he should walk into the team as he does and I would love a quality DM. However, although a DM would have helped us in the majority of the games we lost last year most of them were due to aerial balls and/or being raped down the flanks. Signing M'Vila or whoever isn't going to stop us from conceding 15 goals a season more than the champions.

[arseofacrow]

A lecture dressed as a question.

How nice.

[Skooner]

I’m beyond being worried about the ins and outs of individual players. Of course I want us to sign good players and sell bad ones but I believe Wenger is the fundamental issue and we can’t achieve anything whilst he is still there.

Fans may hope Wenger allows Bould to sort the defence but I see no past evidence to believe this will be the case. We are tactically naïve and frankly the squads attitude doesn’t stand up to scrutiny over a season, this all stems from Wenger’s leadership where he builds the players up in their own minds so they think they are better than they are, he doesn’t seem to be able to develop players mentally to compete at the top and doesn’t enforce enough discipline around the club so that players know when they aren’t performing that they have to improve otherwise there will be consequences.

We’ve got a lot of good players, some of which are capable of being top class, but the environment they’re surrounded by doesn’t drive them on enough to achieve it.

[kite]

highburyJD:
Who or what do you think is the reason for your bad defensiove record? Most on here claim Song isn't good enough but as you don't agree with this I'd like to know what you think.

[northbank123]

I'd like to revise my answer to this question in light of recent events.

A FUCKING MIRACLE

[the playing mantis]

a striker of the equivalent ability of rvp.

we are a joke.

[DB10GOONER]

Song is another type of DM, I think Wenger wants the ball closed fast by our front 4/5 and our DM to be Xabi Alonso-esque (making Arteta our Bousquets - 2 semi DM's)
of course playing like this you are most likely to be punished
a) losing the ball in the transition from defence to attack
b) when your DM is exposed in 'open water' on the counter attack
It's a calculated gamble. After games, especially on here, losing the ball 'early' in a transition is something Song get's hammered for. IMO the nature of our play means Song has to hold the ball and turn in sometimes dangerous places because of his great strength I actually see this part of his game as an asset (aware that may irritate some on here - my opinion is pretty much the opposite of the consensus on this). When we've had Cesc, Wilshere or (whisper it) Denilson good early options are almost always on. When Arteta was missing Song had some of his weakest games. Our wide players need to improve in being available - if both Gervinho and Walcott only look for balls in behind (as was sometimes the case) you vacate the midfield and it's easy to cut out your options - not the fault of the exposed DM

Sorry, I absolutely cannot agree with that! It’s everyone else’s fault that Song makes mistakes??!! Are you serious? “Our wide players need to improve in being available”? Song’s primary job is not to be playing balls to the wide players, that is incidental, his primary role is to disrupt oppo attacks, give cover to the CH’s and distribute the ball simply and effectively to more attacking central midfielders or strikers that have dropped deep – this is why Roy The Crunt Keane was so effective; he knew his limits, and played to his strengths. Keane was never afraid to play a simple pass to an open defender if he was getting closed down and no immediate option was available in midfield.

Song loses the ball when under no pressure, because HE decides to take his time and thus allows the oppo to close him because HE thinks in his own little mind that he has the close control to turn away and step around oppo players.
He also loses the ball in most transitions of play, not just early on. His “great strength”, as you call it, is basically bulk that is mostly immobile, thus he tends to lean in and foul oppo players rather than hold them off. His lack of mobility is exposed when he steps up and we are hit on the counter. How many times do we need to see him standing square-on at the half way line as an oppo striker drops the shoulder and sprints past him, leaving Song completing his oil tanker-like turning circle (usually completed just in time to watch the oppo striker run back past him celebrating)?
His passing is poor, his positioning is poor, his pace is non-existent, his speed of thought is poor, his technical skill is poor. At his best he is average and average is not good enough at that level.

Earlier in this thread JD you mention Song’s stats. I am so sick of shooting down the stats defence on here it is unbelievable. In football stats tell you NOTHING about quality or the overall effect on a team. If Song’s post match stats say he has completed 75% of attempted passes, stat fans wet themselves. BUT those stats do not give a qualitative view - only a quantified result. How many of those passes were fired 5 yards behind a teammate and were considered “completed passes” because said teammate had to scurry back 5 yards and get a foot to the ball? It gets counted as a “completed pass” but that does not take into account that the poor quality pass may have resulted in an attack breaking down or the ball being immediately robbed from said struggling teammate and resulting in a goal, does it? Stats are worthless for determining a player’s quality. It’s no coincidence that Arsene has become more and more obsessed with player stats and has signed so many absolutely shit players in the last 7 years is it.

I firmly believe that we will NEVER win the PL or the CL with Song as first choice DM.