ARSENAL vs MANUTD - 10 years later - What went wrong?

[biglunn]

Im bored this morning and have been thinking - how on earth have ManUtd & Arsenals direction has changed since the lime both clubs were on a level footing on the pitch, with us comprehensively smashing them in 2004? Some thought:-

We are (and have been) run as a small club for a long time now. This self-sustaining model is similar to a lot of clubs - case point being West Ham in the past. Spend just enough to stay in top flight (in our case CL spot), using player transfer as a key source of income. Zero ambition to win anything, spending only based on transfer revenue. The big problems occur when West Ham drop out of PL and lose that revenue (like we would when we lose CL spot).

Big clubs, clubs with ambition, will spend based on the need of the team on the pitch. That sometimes means spending more than is earnt from transfers. Taking a risk. Speculating a bit. And they CAN become more successful than us both on the pitch AND on the P&L sheet. How? Because these clubs grow. Successful clubs draw in more commercial revenue. They use this to invest in the team. A VIRTUOUS CIRCLE. And if something does go wrong financially, perhaps dropping out of CL spot, they have built a team which has a lot of asset - they can sell a player or two. They can regroup and come back.

Look at ManUtd - a team 10 years ago were on a level footing to us on the pitch. And despite much smaller stadium, both profitable. Both clubs then straddled with huge debt, but ManUtd continued to invest in the team and drive the clubs growth. Arsenal on the other hand introduced the 'self sustaining model' - with one big flaw; it isolated the transfer market from the rest of the business. It prevents any invesment & growth on the pitch, which then hampers growth of the club as a whole because we wont get success on the pitch. A VICIOUS CIRCLE. To compete against ManUtd, the team will need massive investment - we simply wont have the commercial revenue to do that. Arsenal - a club in decline on the pitch, and eventually off it.

Big companies, big businesses with ambition - they always have ambitions to grow. We are not one of them. A missed opportunity. With Wenger being instrumental in this.

[donaldo]

Sir Alex Ferguson is the main difference.Would he still be at Utd if they couldnt compete? He has made it clear to the Glaziers he wants money to spend.And they back him.Would Wenger say to Kroenke give me £100m or i walk?(Of course i am joking)Would Fergie still have a crock like Diaby at Utd?would he fuck.Would he give long term contracts to Denilson Almunia Vela and Bendtner?Last year was the weakest Utd team for over 20 years yet they lost the title because City scored two goals in injury time.Its down to their manager.You will never hear Fergie say 4th place is a trophy.Fergie is a winner Wenger gave up even trying to win a long time ago

[supergeorgegraham]

The answer is very simple. Certain members of the board were scared that they would lose their position when a takeover was finalized.
Dein saw what was coming and was sacked.
Board went into lockdown and they made sure that Kronke was the man who would come in and keep them safe or not change the money making side of the transfer business.
We have now lost all our great players with Walcott next out and it will be a matter of a couple of years before Ox and Wilshere leave the club.
Usmanov is trying to take control but Kronke is going nowhere.
Really the last 5 years have been spent in civil war which has not freed up much money for the transfer fund. All sold players revenue goes either to dept repayment or profit sheets.

[supergeorgegraham]

Sir Alex Ferguson is the main difference.Would he still be at Utd if they couldnt compete? He has made it clear to the Glaziers he wants money to spend.And they back him.Would Wenger say to Kroenke give me £100m or i walk?(Of course i am joking)Would Fergie still have a crock like Diaby at Utd?would he fuck.Would he give long term contracts to Denilson Almunia Vela and Bendtner?Last year was the weakest Utd team for over 20 years yet they lost the title because City scored two goals in injury time.Its down to their manager.You will never hear Fergie say 4th place is a trophy.Fergie is a winner Wenger gave up even trying to win a long time ago

Agree with this as well. Think Ferguson is the best manager of all time.

[Bradywasking]

Sir Alex Ferguson is the main difference.Would he still be at Utd if they couldnt compete? He has made it clear to the Glaziers he wants money to spend.And they back him.Would Wenger say to Kroenke give me £100m or i walk?(Of course i am joking)Would Fergie still have a crock like Diaby at Utd?would he fuck.Would he give long term contracts to Denilson Almunia Vela and Bendtner?Last year was the weakest Utd team for over 20 years yet they lost the title because City scored two goals in injury time.Its down to their manager.You will never hear Fergie say 4th place is a trophy.Fergie is a winner Wenger gave up even trying to win a long time ago

That's it in a nutshell....worst thing about the 8-2 was Ferguson's sympathy for Arsenal at the end..he should fucking hate Arsenal with a passion. The fact that he doesn't anymore is a true measure of how much we have fallen.

[Jock Gooner]

Hey biglunn, why not take your question back to 1991 when we finally broke Liverpool's stranglehold on the league. We finished the mickeys, not Manure and yet did we step up and take on the mantle of Englands top team....did we fuck. Didn't invest strongly in order to consolidate our position and instead handed it all to Manure on a plate Just seems that the Board never learn.

[QuartzGooner]

Taking it back to 91 then opens up the can of worms about what happened to Graham 1992+.

But as for 2004 onwards, the financial issues around our new stadium, plus a billionaire takeover at Chelsea, were key reasons we did not consolidate our success.

[donaldo]

Taking it back to 91 then opens up the can of worms about what happened to Graham 1992+.

But as for 2004 onwards, the financial issues around our new stadium, plus a billionaire takeover at Chelsea, were key reasons we did not consolidate our success.

Billionaire owner at Chelsea didnt stop United winning 4 titles to Chelsea's 3 since 2005.As i said Fergie didnt throw the towel in like Wenger.Even when Ronaldo went they competed.We have a billionaire owner and a 30% shareholder who is richer than Abramovich yet our transfer record fee is £15m.The money is there but we dont want it

[goonersid]

We now are lumbered with a board, a manager and a group of players with no ambition, who are happy to take their weekly pay cheques and basically take the fans for a ride.

[QuartzGooner]

Taking it back to 91 then opens up the can of worms about what happened to Graham 1992+.

But as for 2004 onwards, the financial issues around our new stadium, plus a billionaire takeover at Chelsea, were key reasons we did not consolidate our success.

Billionaire owner at Chelsea didnt stop United winning 4 titles to Chelsea's 3 since 2005.As i said Fergie didnt throw the towel in like Wenger.Even when Ronaldo went they competed.We have a billionaire owner and a 30% shareholder who is richer than Abramovich yet our transfer record fee is £15m.The money is there but we dont want it

The billionaire at Chelsea had a huge effect on us because he bought players that in the past we would have bought.
And in one case took one of our best players.

Man Utd did not build a new stadium, we did.
They expanded theirs.
They borrowed to do so but made sure money was available for players, we borrowed but it impacted on how much we had to spend on players, co inciding with a boss who was willing to spend less to focus on his youth project.

Just because we now have a billionaire owner, it is almost irrelevant as it has not increased our cash available for players because that cash is being saved up to pay off the stadium.
Our almost 30% billionaire has no impact on our club, he is not on the board.

[augie]

In a weekend of crap tv I watched a couple of the old Premiership Years on sky over the weekend and even I was struck by different my emotions are now from the way they were then - everytime a scumbag like sheringham, gary neville, the cork/manure judas scumbag (keane) etc appeared on screen my reflex reaction was to let out a string of cuss words at the tv (in front of my 7 and 9 year olds so you can imagine how popular that made me with the missus ) but nowadays, with the exception of the odd player here or there (cashly, chav terry), I dont feel the same way Has my passion for the game dropped that much ? Is it that I am too wrapped up in our own problems to worry about any other teams ?

[goonersid]

In a weekend of crap tv I watched a couple of the old Premiership Years on sky over the weekend and even I was struck by different my emotions are now from the way they were then - everytime a scumbag like sheringham, gary neville, the cork/manure judas scumbag (keane) etc appeared on screen my reflex reaction was to let out a string of cuss words at the tv (in front of my 7 and 9 year olds so you can imagine how popular that made me with the missus ) but nowadays, with the exception of the odd player here or there (cashly, chav terry), I dont feel the same way Has my passion for the game dropped that much ? Is it that I am too wrapped up in our own problems to worry about any other teams ?

Say hello to apathy Augie, I have felt like that for about the last 3 seasons, in fact I have totally stopped hating utd. And now side with them against the likes of the spuds, pool, chavs and citeh.

[rigsby]

Self interest by certain members of the board have caused the situation we are in.

With Wenger there, consistantly getting CL football, they don't need to change anything as the money is rolling in. 4th has been seen as good enough. It should be the minimum.

[Gunnersaurus]

The clubs have gone in different directions yes but United are now starting to.get back into the real world with regards to spending, to see them crying about other teams spending big is quite comical but in their defence they spent and they won.

Fergie is the main difference, he can get the best out of his players and they know who's boss, Wenger is lime a teacher our players don't respect anymore and that is a disease that can't be cured, he has allowed that mentality of accountability and self importance to.grow which is summed up by someone who has.not lived up to his potential and endless opportunities in Walcott trying to lay down the law with regards to wage demands and contract, Fergie would get rid without thinking, that is the difference.

[DB10GOONER]

Sir Alex Ferguson is the main difference.Would he still be at Utd if they couldnt compete? He has made it clear to the Glaziers he wants money to spend.And they back him.Would Wenger say to Kroenke give me £100m or i walk?(Of course i am joking)Would Fergie still have a crock like Diaby at Utd?would he fuck.Would he give long term contracts to Denilson Almunia Vela and Bendtner?Last year was the weakest Utd team for over 20 years yet they lost the title because City scored two goals in injury time.Its down to their manager.You will never hear Fergie say 4th place is a trophy.Fergie is a winner Wenger gave up even trying to win a long time ago

100% agree. We can go back and forth with the financial argument all day, and while it is relevant to a certain degree, it is not the main issue. I say this because we have obviously had money to spend; it has just been spent incorrectly on giving improved extended contracts to poor quality players like Eboue, Almunia, Walcott, Song, Diaby, LegoHead, Flappy, Bendtner etc.

Ferguson is without a doubt the key difference. He has adapted his teams when need be, he has a grasp of basic tactical changes within games, he has dropped and even unloaded players that weren’t good enough and he has laid down the law that he is boss to the players. He can admit to himself he has got something wrong and then change it where needed.

Wenger on the other hand has persisted with poor players long past the point it became obvious to everyone else that they were shit (and then extended their contracts), he has no grasp of a Plan B or tactics (it’s either tippy tappy or nothing), he (IMHO) has lost the respect of most players in that they do not fear getting dropped for shit performances as they know he struggles to ever admit he got it wrong and will put a comforting arm about their shoulder and give them a pay rise.

Trophies speak volumes for me. Look at what Ferguson has won since the Russian pimp took over and look at what Wenger has... oh, right...

Yes, you cannot totally discount the financial impact of the Citeh and Chav pimps but the key difference is Ferguson. He is just the far superior manager in the long run.