Who Will Step Up this Year?

[franksav63]

you're claiming you invented the question mark and that chestnuts are lazy?
I know you're a miserable cynic but I thought you had more about you than that...

can you see what I did there? retaliatory strawman BS
I responded to crowarse talking about wasting time - I waste a hell of a lot more than he does, by actually going
its a game of opinions, simply dismissing out of hand the opinion of somebody because it differs from yours is the sign of a closed mind

Chelski's cup successes last season were an organisational triumph with a large bit of luck in the mix (often is the luckiest of the good teams that wins a cup - just how it is)
squeeze an extra couple of attacking mids into the side (and they have loads to fit in now that Roman will expect to see play) and you simply can't set out like that

IHH sorry if its not clear - if offered us missing our first choice back 4 and Chels also playing a B defence I would take it
I think Chelski would be weakened more than us

Why do you think I'm a miserable cynic? Just because I don't go down your route to lick Wenger's arse at everything he does, or doesn't do? ... and there you go again, assuming that crowey doesn't go, that his views are not as important as your's because YOU GO? I GO, I'm a season ticket holder, so what's my excuse? Is it because I've woke up and seen what Wenger is actually doing to our once great club?

Let's put this another way, what will be your tipping point JD? At what point will you finally say, Wenger must be the problem? Will you ever get there or just blindly worship him until he's finally carried out in a coffin?

[I Hate Hleb]

...

IHH sorry if its not clear - if offered us missing our first choice back 4 and Chels also playing a B defence I would take it
I think Chelski would be weakened more than us

Now that above is clearer but the initial posts didn't read as if that was the point you were making, regardless of whether I'm stoned or not (although I can reassure you that I am. ) However, I still totally disagree with you.

Having said that, the art of defending isn't only about the individual players concerned but also about what system they are playing, with each player knowing where to be positional at any given point or situation. In that regards I would still chose any decent manger in charge of a back four featuring the telly tubbies than I would any choice of Arsenal back-line taught by Arsene Wenger!!

[highburyJD]

I'm not saying other peoples opinions are a waste of time, crow is
I disagree with people, I don't dismiss them - was simply defending myself
I do waste/spend a hell of a lot of time following Arsenal
everyone and every football stadium has two old blokes who sit behind them talking shite,
they've all been attending since before the war and miraculously manage to know nowt
attendance doesnt gold plate your opinion - still silly to discount all they say

sorry if you don't like the term miserable cynic,
there are many getting upset about some warm up pre-season knockabouts (in which we won two trophies woohoo) seems pretty maudlin to me
happy to consider a different label, I don't really think 'rosetinter' is fair but accept it as a signifier for a more positive group.
'Realists' is the silliest selfmade name since the guvnor. Everyone thinks they're realistic.

One can easily turn that question round and say at what point do you accept Wenger must stay/is king/should be beatified?
I did a survey on here and many voted that if we won the quadruple they would still want him sacked
Is that 'realistic'??

Whilst we finish in the top 4 the manager is doing a good job, I would normally take a season out of the CL in exchange for the FA cup (competition I love) but with our sponsorship deals to be renegotiated after next season we need 2 seasons in the CL and getting through the groups as minimum par

if we failed in those targets personally I would give the manager one season to get a birdy and recover from his bogey
consecutive seasons of missed targets I'd say try a new manager

[franksav63]

I'm not saying other peoples opinions are a waste of time, crow is
I disagree with people, I don't dismiss them - was simply defending myself
I do waste/spend a hell of a lot of time following Arsenal
everyone and every football stadium has two old blokes who sit behind them talking shite,
they've all been attending since before the war and miraculously manage to know nowt
attendance doesnt gold plate your opinion - still silly to discount all they say

sorry if you don't like the term miserable cynic,
there are many getting upset about some warm up pre-season knockabouts (in which we won two trophies woohoo) seems pretty maudlin to me
happy to consider a different label, I don't really think 'rosetinter' is fair but accept it as a signifier for a more positive group.
'Realists' is the silliest selfmade name since the guvnor. Everyone thinks they're realistic.

One can easily turn that question round and say at what point do you accept Wenger must stay/is king/should be beatified?
I did a survey on here and many voted that if we won the quadruple they would still want him sacked
Is that 'realistic'??

Whilst we finish in the top 4 the manager is doing a good job, I would normally take a season out of the CL in exchange for the FA cup (competition I love) but with our sponsorship deals to be renegotiated after next season we need 2 seasons in the CL and getting through the groups as minimum par

if we failed in those targets personally I would give the manager one season to get a birdy and recover from his bogey
consecutive seasons of missed targets I'd say try a new manager

I don't give a shit being called a miserable cynic, I would rather call myself a wised up cynic now though...
and as for the preseason games, the only thing that I'm sadden about is that we still have the same issues at the back, I know you're going to counter by saying that Bould has only been working with them for a few weeks, but what about some of the players coming out on .com saying how impressed they've been with him? WS, JD (not you).... surely some improvement could have been seen? But they seem worse than every?

I think I'm past the point in hoping and wishing Wenger would turn this around, he could be off in 2 seasons time and we'll be left with the whole of his shit still at the club, because of the stupid long contracts that HE'S put most of these players, players that HE has bought to the club and invested not only time and wages in but HE's faith.

Why, after class players leaving anyone who had faith in Wenger would still back him is totally beyond me, but then everyone to their own. Eh?

[highburyJD]

I don't give a shit being called a miserable cynic, I would rather call myself a wised up cynic now though...
and as for the preseason games, the only thing that I'm sadden about is that we still have the same issues at the back, I know you're going to counter by saying that Bould has only been working with them for a few weeks, but what about some of the players coming out on .com saying how impressed they've been with him? WS, JD (not you).... surely some improvement could have been seen? But they seem worse than every?

I think I'm past the point in hoping and wishing Wenger would turn this around, he could be off in 2 seasons time and we'll be left with the whole of his shit still at the club, because of the stupid long contracts that HE'S put most of these players, players that HE has bought to the club and invested not only time and wages in but HE's faith.

Why, after class players leaving anyone who had faith in Wenger would still back him is totally beyond me, but then everyone to their own. Eh?

we've played less than half of our 1st choice back 5 and uncleBouldy's been there 10 seconds
I don't see why its 'realistic' to expect improvement

not sure who you mean by 'the shit' but not many players have more than 2 years on their contracts
and those that do: Vermaelen, Koscielny - I'm happy about

why 'after class players leaving' does anyone have faith in Wenger?
for me its because he's consistently shown he's able to make players class
and our amazing consistency in League and CL

I think its more amazing that its common currency here he should be fired even if we do win things

[officepest]

you're claiming you invented the question mark and that chestnuts are lazy?
I know you're a miserable cynic but I thought you had more about you than that...

can you see what I did there? retaliatory strawman BS
I responded to crowarse talking about wasting time - I waste a hell of a lot more than he does, by actually going
its a game of opinions, simply dismissing out of hand the opinion of somebody because it differs from yours is the sign of a closed mind

Chelski's cup successes last season were an organisational triumph with a large bit of luck in the mix (often is the luckiest of the good teams that wins a cup - just how it is)
squeeze an extra couple of attacking mids into the side (and they have loads to fit in now that Roman will expect to see play) and you simply can't set out like that

IHH sorry if its not clear - if offered us missing our first choice back 4 and Chels also playing a B defence I would take it
I think Chelski would be weakened more than us

See that? The bit in bold? This is called tactical planning and it can, shock horror, result in an inferior team getting a result. See also CWC in '94 or was this too an ''organisational triumph with a large bit of luck''?

[highburyJD]

Chelski's cup successes last season were an organisational triumph

See that? The bit in bold? This is called tactical planning and it can, shock horror, result in an inferior team getting a result. See also CWC in '94 or was this too an ''organisational triumph with a large bit of luck''?

very good parallel, two teams nowhere in the league that focused on denying the opposition chances and relying on big game strikers to drag them through in Europe
Arsenal '94 had no choice but to give up on qualifying for Europe through the league - we were terrible
Chelski '12 weren't quite as poor but still once they dropped away were never going to compete
(also those too sides didnt have to worry about Euro money so much as Arsenal 2012 did)

Negative teams can win cups, it's rare they win leagues
Wenger's startpoint is top 4, he thinks the best way to get it is dominating possession (which admittedly is not always 'positive' football but its definitely less negative than RDM and GGs cup winning - miles off the pace in the league sides)

[supergeorgegraham]

If Gibbs, Vermaelen, Koschielny, Sagna are injured then the others will be dire.

hmm
if Cole, Terry, Cahill and Ivanovic are injured I don't think Betrand, Luiz, Ferreira, Van Aanholt are that great
(no better than Santos, Bartley, Mertesacker, Jenkinson)
and they've spent insane money building that squad

I actually meant if even one of these are injured then we are doomed. I should not need to point this out.

[franksav63]

I don't give a shit being called a miserable cynic, I would rather call myself a wised up cynic now though...
and as for the preseason games, the only thing that I'm sadden about is that we still have the same issues at the back, I know you're going to counter by saying that Bould has only been working with them for a few weeks, but what about some of the players coming out on .com saying how impressed they've been with him? WS, JD (not you).... surely some improvement could have been seen? But they seem worse than every?

I think I'm past the point in hoping and wishing Wenger would turn this around, he could be off in 2 seasons time and we'll be left with the whole of his shit still at the club, because of the stupid long contracts that HE'S put most of these players, players that HE has bought to the club and invested not only time and wages in but HE's faith.

Why, after class players leaving anyone who had faith in Wenger would still back him is totally beyond me, but then everyone to their own. Eh?

we've played less than half of our 1st choice back 5 and uncleBouldy's been there 10 seconds
I don't see why its 'realistic' to expect improvement

not sure who you mean by 'the shit' but not many players have more than 2 years on their contracts
and those that do: Vermaelen, Koscielny - I'm happy about

why 'after class players leaving' does anyone have faith in Wenger?
for me its because he's consistently shown he's able to make players class
and our amazing consistency in League and CL

I think its more amazing that its common currency here he should be fired even if we do win things

Players have come out on .com... I said this before, I think it was WS and JD, claiming how Bould has already made improvements....I did already say this...

We have plenty of shit players still at the club, quite a few of them were seen in the friendlies, half of these wouldn't even register an interest at most Premier League clubs, yet we're stockpiled with them... thanks to Wenger and he's faith in them... Faith he shows by giving them long and big contracts that now we can only unload on loan.

For every 4-5 shit players, yes a gem is uncovered, Cesc, RVP... but once RVP goes, I can't see many other big clubs after any of the other players we have left... our amazing consistency in finishing 3rd or 4th... 19-25 odd points off the top..... whilst it shows consistency in finishing in the CL, what's the fucking point? We'll never win it?? One final in 15-16 seasons is a shit record, ..... the sooner he goes the better.

[I Hate Hleb]

...

For every 14-15 shit players, yes a gem is uncovered, Cesc, RVP... but once RVP goes, I can't see many other big clubs after any of the other players we have left... our amazing consistency in finishing 3rd or 4th... 19-25 odd points off the top..... whilst it shows consistency in finishing in the CL, what's the fucking point? We'll never win it?? One final in 15-16 seasons is a shit record, ..... the sooner he goes the better.

Fixed that for you frank, to better reflect the reality.

[highburyJD]

If Gibbs, Vermaelen, Koschielny, Sagna are injured then the others will be dire.

hmm
if Cole, Terry, Cahill and Ivanovic are injured I don't think Betrand, Luiz, Ferreira, Van Aanholt are that great
(no better than Santos, Bartley, Mertesacker, Jenkinson)
and they've spent insane money building that squad

I actually meant if even one of these are injured then we are doomed. I should not need to point this out.

do you think if one of Chelski's defenders is injured they are also doomed?
for me a combined backup defence would be no worse than a 50/50 split

Players have come out on .com... I said this before, I think it was WS and JD, claiming how Bould has already made improvements....I did already say this...

.com needs to generate copy. Players are only gonna say positive stuff. This is not news

We have plenty of shit players still at the club, quite a few of them were seen in the friendlies, half of these wouldn't even register an interest at most Premier League clubs, yet we're stockpiled with them... thanks to Wenger and he's faith in them... Faith he shows by giving them long and big contracts that now we can only unload on loan.

when we lost Hleb, Flamini, Nas$ri and now RVP everyone moaned that they weren't locked in. Who is on a longterm contract that you wish we could just release? Denilson - I presume SaoPaulo pay part of his wages. Diaby - can see the argument but still hope he proves us all wrong. Bendtner, Vela and Flappy we should get fees for. Not many players left on longterm deals accept last years signings (Park was the only bad one IMO) + Vermaelen & Koscielny - 2 highly rated players we could make a profit on if we sold.

For every 4-5 shit players, yes a gem is uncovered, Cesc, RVP... but once RVP goes, I can't see many other big clubs after any of the other players we have left... our amazing consistency in finishing 3rd or 4th... 19-25 odd points off the top..... whilst it shows consistency in finishing in the CL, what's the fucking point? We'll never win it?? One final in 15-16 seasons is a shit record, ..... the sooner he goes the better.

a few points on this rant
1-there must only be a handful of managers in the world with a better 15-16 year CL record, harsh/unrealistic to call it shit
2-over that period we have finished over 20 points off the top how many times??? not "consistently" that's for sure - a silly thing to say
3- Wilshere, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Ox and even Song would have dozens of top club suitors willing to pay good money if available. By the end of the season I hope Giroud and Podolski would also be in demand.

[mcdowell42]

If Gibbs, Vermaelen, Koschielny, Sagna are injured then the others will be dire.

hmm
if Cole, Terry, Cahill and Ivanovic are injured I don't think Betrand, Luiz, Ferreira, Van Aanholt are that great
(no better than Santos, Bartley, Mertesacker, Jenkinson)
and they've spent insane money building that squad

I actually meant if even one of these are injured then we are doomed. I should not need to point this out.

do you think if one of Chelski's defenders is injured they are also doomed?
for me a combined backup defence would be no worse than a 50/50 split

Players have come out on .com... I said this before, I think it was WS and JD, claiming how Bould has already made improvements....I did already say this...

.com needs to generate copy. Players are only gonna say positive stuff. This is not news

We have plenty of shit players still at the club, quite a few of them were seen in the friendlies, half of these wouldn't even register an interest at most Premier League clubs, yet we're stockpiled with them... thanks to Wenger and he's faith in them... Faith he shows by giving them long and big contracts that now we can only unload on loan.

when we lost Hleb, Flamini, Nas$ri and now RVP everyone moaned that they weren't locked in. Who is on a longterm contract that you wish we could just release? Denilson - I presume SaoPaulo pay part of his wages. Diaby - can see the argument but still hope he proves us all wrong. Bendtner, Vela and Flappy we should get fees for. Not many players left on longterm deals accept last years signings (Park was the only bad one IMO) + Vermaelen & Koscielny - 2 highly rated players we could make a profit on if we sold.

For every 4-5 shit players, yes a gem is uncovered, Cesc, RVP... but once RVP goes, I can't see many other big clubs after any of the other players we have left... our amazing consistency in finishing 3rd or 4th... 19-25 odd points off the top..... whilst it shows consistency in finishing in the CL, what's the fucking point? We'll never win it?? One final in 15-16 seasons is a shit record, ..... the sooner he goes the better.

a few points on this rant
1-there must only be a handful of managers in the world with a better 15-16 year CL record, harsh/unrealistic to call it shit
2-over that period we have finished over 20 points off the top how many times??? not "consistently" that's for sure - a silly thing to say
3- Wilshere, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Ox and even Song would have dozens of top club suitors willing to pay good money if available. By the end of the season I hope Giroud and Podolski would also be in demand.

What fucking record 1 final in 15/16 years, besides from the money we earn for qualifying, an absoulute waste of our time we are not going to win it with him in charge.Its about winning or at least making an attempt to win competitions, top 4 is not a fucking trophy never will be.

[arseofacrow]

why does hjd make every thread unreadable in every sense?

[highburyJD]

1-there must only be a handful of managers in the world with a better 15-16 year CL record, harsh/unrealistic to call it shit

What fucking record 1 final in 15/16 years, besides from the money we earn for qualifying, an absoulute waste of our time we are not going to win it with him in charge.Its about winning or at least making an attempt to win competitions, top 4 is not a fucking trophy never will be.

so a few managers have done better - Fergie, Guardiola, Del Bosque, Mourinho can't think of any others (maybe Hitzfeld or was Dortmund earlier in the 90s?)
seems like the main stick Wenger is being beat with here is he's had lots of chances
that, by any normal standards, is a positive not a negative...

and recordwise he's still in the top halfdozen - so total shit then

[mcdowell42]

besides from the money earned all i see is a shit record in the CL