AST - Perks of the job

[Babatunde]

Ok I have had enough and I am going to bite now. I can't take this shit no more.
Timothy. Can I call you Timothy? Fair play for coming on here and putting forward your points of view, much welcome and I understand where you're coming from.

However with all due respect pal, I ain't a fucking idiot and you do yourself a massive disservice by hiding behind a wall that's as expansive as the Great one in China. Seriously.
You might never have Personally claimed to be a spokesperson for all things Arsenal but then again, how can you sit there with a straight face and claim that the AST have never implied that they speak for the majority?
I would like to please ask what your remit is as the AST? You yourself have come on here and admitted there are several things wrong with the club. Can I therefore please ask why I sit in amazement at the fundamental lack of challenge made to Kroenke and Gazidis? There seems a kind of fear of asking the wrong kind of question and being denied access - don't worry mate, most journalists in the UK roll like this. They're compliant so they don't ask probing questions.

I have watched many an AST event and sat back in absolute amazement as a series of purely dishonest and blatantly false statements have been uttered by Gazidis: what has the AST done to challenge this? No one is suggesting you go in with an uzi and blast some mofos away, but I find it absolutely incredible that other shareholder fan representation organizations around Europe (and check them, many of them have influence) manage to get things done, yet the AST merely seem to be crash test dummies sitting in an auditorium.
The club made a profit again in the transfer window! I’m not blaming the AST for this but on the other hand, do you not possibly realise the lack of influence you’re having? You might claim not to speak for the people, but yet Timothy Payton is content to get his imbecilic mug on the front of the first Sky Sports News camera he can find; and more than happy to speak in terms of ‘Arsenal fans’.
Tim Payton has not, and never will speak for me. Bollocks. If he is speaking from a purely AST shareholding perspective, then it isn’t hard to make that clear on the tv. He doesn’t ever make the distinction though, and goes on to make a series of bland non-challenging nonsense. There seems a palpable fear of upsetting those that provide you with delectable nibbles: Why?

How is it possible that on the one hand you can claim that the AST is kind of representative of the fanbase, and then on the other, you release comedy surveys (again quotes in the Telegraph etc) which show the manager with an 80% + approval rating!

Are you actually going to sit there and tell me that this is in any way, shape or form representative of the Arsenal fans? You yourself have alluded to how split and divided the fan-base in. Arsenal fans having fights after the Blackburn home game over a year ago will forever be etched in the memory. Do you even think the club is remotely aware of the massive discontent amogts many, many fans? And if they’re not being made aware of it (AST surveys seem to be excellent PR for the club) then I ask again: what is the point of the AST? What is your remit?
Yeah sure, people like me can try get involved in the AST – do you even accept dissenting voices over there? Certainly doesn’t seem like it.

I mean sure, you can feed me your BS about ‘better to be in tent and involved, than outside looking in’ bla bla. The United Nations also like to bluster the same nonsense whilst quaffing a 1988 Sasakaya and discussing their ‘concern’ about Syria, as they watch another Syrian getting executed on their iPads (in between mouthfuls of foie gras).
Now. I’m not suggesting a club as comically tight as Arsenal is providing you perks anywhere as good as that and to be honest I’d be surprised if you were offered spring water and crackers. But mate seriously, how can you not see the criticisms of the AST? The club is seriously in a bad state, and I’ve been alive and following it much longer than you sunshine. Yes the club has seen leaner times success wise, but this is definitely the most bitterly divided and split I have ever seen it.

One last thing: I find unbelievable the lack of challenge Arsene Wenger gets from you guys. It borders on farcical sorry dude. His management in terms of RESULTS has been absolute shite, no trophies in 8 years and losing cup finals to Brum. Serious questions should be being posed of his tenure, at any other club with STs our price there would be more than just ‘questions’ after 3 years, let alone 7/8…and yet, the man gets off scot-free each time?

Like I said though fairplay for coming on here...
Thanks

[augie]

As usual baba raises fairs points that mirror what a lot of us also feel although he chooses to do so in slightly different fashion

I too would like to know why, if your relationship with the club is strained as you say, that this hasn't been made public and why the reasons for this tension haven't gone public too. Surely by it's very nature it suggests that there is something that the ast wants changed and the club are refusing to play ball so wouldn't you have a much better chance of succeeding if you had sheer force of numbers behind you ? I am assuming that if this issue is important enough to cause a strain then it is something that you would want to do all you can to push through ? Right now I believe that there is a huge % of Gooners just waiting for any type of serious issue that will allow the fans to unite and take on the club and this seems to be undervalued by organisations like ast and aisa.

Why is wenger and gazidas never challenged publicly ? All the time I ask fans who still believe in wenger if they would still support him if he was only appointed manager in 2007 and I seldom get an answer When wenger goes I know that whatever manager replaces him will not be allowed to turn in 5 years performance in the job that wenger has and still be retained by the club. Sentimentality seems to be the main reason for keeping wenger (even if they can't acknowledge that ) but as much as I would love to see TA6, PV4 and the great Dennis Bergkamp still playing for our club, I realise that their day has been and gone and it is time some people applied that logic with their beloved leader

[stg]

How is it possible that on the one hand you can claim that the AST is kind of representative of the fanbase, and then on the other, you release comedy surveys (again quotes in the Telegraph etc) which show the manager with an 80% + approval rating!

Surveys can only show a percentage of the people asked looking at the AST survey 636 people took part in that survey. They have 1067 members according to their website so that 80% is only a handful of Arsenal supporters but in survey's that can be seen as a big enough number to create a working theory of the number of Arsenal fans happy with Wenger.

It would be difficult for the AST to point out and have written every time they are quoted in the media that "we are a fan group with 1067 members so we possibly do not represent the whole of the Arsenal FC fan base. There are other fan groups that could have different views to us"

Fans tend to drift to a similar group of thinking on forums and official groups I am sure if the active members on here had a vote then it would turn out different, if the AFC forum had a vote that would be different and so on.

I find unbelievable the lack of challenge Arsene Wenger gets from you guys

But as the AST poll shows they as a group are somewhat happy with Wenger so why would they challenge him. They see the picture differently from you and others. If you do not like what the AST are doing and saying challenge them at the top it's no use moaning on a forum about them challenge the people in charge find out why the 1067 are happy with what is going on. Find out if other supporters groups(BSM for example) are planing any articles to counter act these results and if not why are they not finding out what the AST are doing.

Football in the end is a game of opinions and with the rise of internet forums, blogs, fanzines etc these opinions are open to a wider audience. I am sure if we had had these back in 1976 or when Stapleton left or we lost in the CWC final in 1980 then they would of gone into melt down with predictions of doom and gloom.

[milesgooner]

I'm a fan of Tim's blog and I often wonder why he does it when he gets dogs abuse from some quarters (not on this thread it has to be said).
Then I see one of his tweets posted coming back from Sunderland away, a reserve game or a ladies game, and I realise that he does it because he is nuts about Arsenal FC.

I guess you would call me a 'bleeding heart' liberal when it come to my views as i often agree with things said on this forum but just as often don't agree with the tone they are written in.
It takes a bit more skill to write a piece that engages people without lapsing into tired cliche's and invective.

As for the AST and AISA, good luck to them - I'm not a member but have never felt that they are acting on my behalf. I don't think they have a responsibility to turn down the odd freebie that is thrown their way - I know I wouldn't!
Similarly I think the BSM offers a slightly more radical avenue for fans that feel their voices are not being heard.

However I do strongly believe it is far more constructive to sign up to any of these and try to make a difference, than constantly criticise their endevours on here.

[arseofacrow]

I'm a fan of Tim's blog and I often wonder why he does it when he gets dogs abuse from some quarters (not on this thread it has to be said).
Then I see one of his tweets posted coming back from Sunderland away, a reserve game or a ladies game, and I realise that he does it because he is nuts about Arsenal FC.

I guess you would call me a 'bleeding heart' liberal when it come to my views as i often agree with things said on this forum but just as often don't agree with the tone they are written in.
It takes a bit more skill to write a piece that engages people without lapsing into tired cliche's and invective.

As for the AST and AISA, good luck to them - I'm not a member but have never felt that they are acting on my behalf. I don't think they have a responsibility to turn down the odd freebie that is thrown their way - I know I wouldn't!
Similarly I think the BSM offers a slightly more radical avenue for fans that feel their voices are not being heard.

However I do strongly believe it is far more constructive to sign up to any of these and try to make a difference, than constantly criticise their endevours on here.

Unfortunately, these organisations will only have access to Arsenal while they are not overtly anti-Arsenal and preferably on side, so better to join BSM if one is looking to campaign for (real) change.

[Gunnersaurus]

As usual baba raises fairs points that mirror what a lot of us also feel although he chooses to do so in slightly different fashion

[clockender1]

Im all for a fans voice. But none of the more polular groups ever seem to question the club in any real capacity...or actually do ANYTHING to benefit the average fan.

But you know what I question even more...

PAYING TO BE A MEMBER!!! Where does this money go...i hear the usual, website, sending out newsletters, banner ....

but why arent these done by donation? Whats the money for? It doesnt cost to all meet up in one place, or send out emails, or arrange meets.

Yes banners and promotional material cost, but should these not be funded by donation of those behind the cause to show an honest backing of that cause.

And quite frankly until any of these groups show any capability to actually make some change then there is no justification in giving any money to them.

chicken and egg chap.

what can they do with no money ?

i'm happy to bet 20 quid on them. if they don't do anything then i don't renew or i withdraw my support.

it's how most pressure groups get started.

if you don't want to join or donate don't. simple as.

i'm happy to support them because i look at that travesty of an away kit and think ' not my my crest not my kit' and do they.

[clockender1]

As usual baba raises fairs points that mirror what a lot of us also feel although he chooses to do so in slightly different fashion

I too would like to know why, if your relationship with the club is strained as you say, that this hasn't been made public and why the reasons for this tension haven't gone public too.

yup. no respect for other peoples views and no class.

Augie, i would think it's obvious why 'tensions' between AISA, AST or anyone else and the club have not been made public - it's the first rule of politics that if you want to continue an ongoing dialogue with the opposition you have to respect them publicly even if you disagree in private.

if you slag someone off in public, why would they agree to a meeting - which would look like them losing face ? no, they'd just cut you off...

taking a 'no compromise' stance in public just doesn't work - look at N Ireland and the Middle East FFS.

c1

[Little Dutch]

Ok I have had enough and I am going to bite now. I can't take this shit no more.
Timothy. Can I call you Timothy? Fair play for coming on here and putting forward your points of view, much welcome and I understand where you're coming from.

However with all due respect pal, I ain't a fucking idiot and you do yourself a massive disservice by hiding behind a wall that's as expansive as the Great one in China. Seriously.
You might never have Personally claimed to be a spokesperson for all things Arsenal but then again, how can you sit there with a straight face and claim that the AST have never implied that they speak for the majority?
I would like to please ask what your remit is as the AST? You yourself have come on here and admitted there are several things wrong with the club. Can I therefore please ask why I sit in amazement at the fundamental lack of challenge made to Kroenke and Gazidis? There seems a kind of fear of asking the wrong kind of question and being denied access - don't worry mate, most journalists in the UK roll like this. They're compliant so they don't ask probing questions.

I have watched many an AST event and sat back in absolute amazement as a series of purely dishonest and blatantly false statements have been uttered by Gazidis: what has the AST done to challenge this? No one is suggesting you go in with an uzi and blast some mofos away, but I find it absolutely incredible that other shareholder fan representation organizations around Europe (and check them, many of them have influence) manage to get things done, yet the AST merely seem to be crash test dummies sitting in an auditorium.
The club made a profit again in the transfer window! I’m not blaming the AST for this but on the other hand, do you not possibly realise the lack of influence you’re having? You might claim not to speak for the people, but yet Timothy Payton is content to get his imbecilic mug on the front of the first Sky Sports News camera he can find; and more than happy to speak in terms of ‘Arsenal fans’.
Tim Payton has not, and never will speak for me. Bollocks. If he is speaking from a purely AST shareholding perspective, then it isn’t hard to make that clear on the tv. He doesn’t ever make the distinction though, and goes on to make a series of bland non-challenging nonsense. There seems a palpable fear of upsetting those that provide you with delectable nibbles: Why?

How is it possible that on the one hand you can claim that the AST is kind of representative of the fanbase, and then on the other, you release comedy surveys (again quotes in the Telegraph etc) which show the manager with an 80% + approval rating!

Are you actually going to sit there and tell me that this is in any way, shape or form representative of the Arsenal fans? You yourself have alluded to how split and divided the fan-base in. Arsenal fans having fights after the Blackburn home game over a year ago will forever be etched in the memory. Do you even think the club is remotely aware of the massive discontent amogts many, many fans? And if they’re not being made aware of it (AST surveys seem to be excellent PR for the club) then I ask again: what is the point of the AST? What is your remit?
Yeah sure, people like me can try get involved in the AST – do you even accept dissenting voices over there? Certainly doesn’t seem like it.

I mean sure, you can feed me your BS about ‘better to be in tent and involved, than outside looking in’ bla bla. The United Nations also like to bluster the same nonsense whilst quaffing a 1988 Sasakaya and discussing their ‘concern’ about Syria, as they watch another Syrian getting executed on their iPads (in between mouthfuls of foie gras).
Now. I’m not suggesting a club as comically tight as Arsenal is providing you perks anywhere as good as that and to be honest I’d be surprised if you were offered spring water and crackers. But mate seriously, how can you not see the criticisms of the AST? The club is seriously in a bad state, and I’ve been alive and following it much longer than you sunshine. Yes the club has seen leaner times success wise, but this is definitely the most bitterly divided and split I have ever seen it.

One last thing: I find unbelievable the lack of challenge Arsene Wenger gets from you guys. It borders on farcical sorry dude. His management in terms of RESULTS has been absolute shite, no trophies in 8 years and losing cup finals to Brum. Serious questions should be being posed of his tenure, at any other club with STs our price there would be more than just ‘questions’ after 3 years, let alone 7/8…and yet, the man gets off scot-free each time?

Like I said though fairplay for coming on here...
Thanks

Perfectly reasonable questions one and all, but none that are really worthwhile posing for me. They would be better posed for Messrs Payton and Phillips who run the show. I'm just meat in the room with these things. Like I said, I'm not a politician or an activist and, personally, I don't attend for those reasons. Others do, but ultimately, you need to ask those questions of the people in the organisation that make those calls.

I know Tim doesn't like to get onto the subject of Wenger because the AST is more about governance, custodianship and ownership. If people have criticisms of that, like I say, cool. I'm not a company man here. Surveys just give the results they get, simple. Dissenting voices are very much accepted, certainly at the meetings and you'd probably be surprised around Tim's own views. It's hard to please everyone. I know Tim gets just as many people riding his back for being some kind of anarchic disrupter, planting seeds of discontent and constantly slagging the club off. But like I say, they're questions for him.

[augie]

I'm a fan of Tim's blog and I often wonder why he does it when he gets dogs abuse from some quarters (not on this thread it has to be said).
Then I see one of his tweets posted coming back from Sunderland away, a reserve game or a ladies game, and I realise that he does it because he is nuts about Arsenal FC.

I guess you would call me a 'bleeding heart' liberal when it come to my views as i often agree with things said on this forum but just as often don't agree with the tone they are written in.
It takes a bit more skill to write a piece that engages people without lapsing into tired cliche's and invective.

As for the AST and AISA, good luck to them - I'm not a member but have never felt that they are acting on my behalf. I don't think they have a responsibility to turn down the odd freebie that is thrown their way - I know I wouldn't!
Similarly I think the BSM offers a slightly more radical avenue for fans that feel their voices are not being heard.

However I do strongly believe it is far more constructive to sign up to any of these and try to make a difference, than constantly criticise their endevours on here.

Often referred to as backhanders - obviously when I say that I am talking about business and politics but surely anybody with any level of intelligence would question the motives of the club when they offer these freebies ? What do you think the chances of the BSM movement getting special access or freebies thrown their way ?

Clockender1, maybe we analysise things differently but for me relationships get strained when negotiations have been ongoing for a while with no sign of a compromise or solution anytime soon. Surely if negotiations have just started then it is too early to become strained unless the club gave an emphatic no way response when the subject at hand was brought up and if so negotiations wont exactly be ongoing will they ?

[clockender1]

Clockender1, maybe we analysise things differently but for me relationships get strained when negotiations have been ongoing for a while with no sign of a compromise or solution anytime soon. Surely if negotiations have just started then it is too early to become strained unless the club gave an emphatic no way response when the subject at hand was brought up and if so negotiations wont exactly be ongoing will they ?

in the normal way of things yes, but if you start making public statements before you even sit down then things are going to be tense before you even start - i think its fair to say that relations between the board and Red & White Holdings are strained because the two sides have never met at the boards preference.

[augie]

Clockender1, maybe we analysise things differently but for me relationships get strained when negotiations have been ongoing for a while with no sign of a compromise or solution anytime soon. Surely if negotiations have just started then it is too early to become strained unless the club gave an emphatic no way response when the subject at hand was brought up and if so negotiations wont exactly be ongoing will they ?

in the normal way of things yes, but if you start making public statements before you even sit down then things are going to be tense before you even start - i think its fair to say that relations between the board and Red & White Holdings are strained because the two sides have never met at the boards preference.

I'm knackered tired, had a shit last few days and am still suffering with this bloody collar bone so maybe I am not understanding you properly but are you telling me that the club has refused to meet ast ?? What the fcuk type of working relationship have they got ?

[Little Dutch]

As usual baba raises fairs points that mirror what a lot of us also feel although he chooses to do so in slightly different fashion

I too would like to know why, if your relationship with the club is strained as you say, that this hasn't been made public and why the reasons for this tension haven't gone public too. Surely by it's very nature it suggests that there is something that the ast wants changed and the club are refusing to play ball so wouldn't you have a much better chance of succeeding if you had sheer force of numbers behind you ? I am assuming that if this issue is important enough to cause a strain then it is something that you would want to do all you can to push through ? Right now I believe that there is a huge % of Gooners just waiting for any type of serious issue that will allow the fans to unite and take on the club and this seems to be undervalued by organisations like ast and aisa.

Why is wenger and gazidas never challenged publicly ? All the time I ask fans who still believe in wenger if they would still support him if he was only appointed manager in 2007 and I seldom get an answer When wenger goes I know that whatever manager replaces him will not be allowed to turn in 5 years performance in the job that wenger has and still be retained by the club. Sentimentality seems to be the main reason for keeping wenger (even if they can't acknowledge that ) but as much as I would love to see TA6, PV4 and the great Dennis Bergkamp still playing for our club, I realise that their day has been and gone and it is time some people applied that logic with their beloved leader

Again, those are questions for the AST board members. From what I've picked up by osmosis, there's a bit of a decision for the AST because there is some tension. Do you become more hostile and end up shouting at a shut door, or do you compromise a bit and maintain the ability to escalate concerns to the CEO? The AST board still meets Gazidis on a monthly basis. I suppose, to use an extreme analogy, it's kind of like when Kombat 18 formed a splinter from the BNP. It was a split between people who wanted to compromise a little to get seats in parliament and at least get their voices in the public arena and the people who want to go militant and keep with plain old action, no matter who it pisses off. Do you maintain pure action, which is then neutered anyway because nobody pays any attention to you? Or do you compromise a little but then get a public platform? Different people will always have different views on that. I'm not sure which road the AST will eventually go down. But those are just my impressions.

And there's little need to keep saying "your" and "you" in reference to the AST when responding to my posts. I must have said a hundred times on this thread I'm not a politician and I'm not a "company man." It just reinforces, even subsconsciously, these irritating divisions between Arsenal fans that so many are trying to drive. In any case, none of the strategic decisions the AST makes have anything to do with me, I'm just calling what I see.

[augie]

Apologies for using the phrase "you" - I honestly didn't mean anything harsh by it but I used it in the same way as I would say "you scousers" to a Liverpudlian even if they might be a nice guy and may or may not agree with decisions made by their club

[StuartL]

As usual baba raises fairs points that mirror what a lot of us also feel although he chooses to do so in slightly different fashion

I too would like to know why, if your relationship with the club is strained as you say, that this hasn't been made public and why the reasons for this tension haven't gone public too. Surely by it's very nature it suggests that there is something that the ast wants changed and the club are refusing to play ball so wouldn't you have a much better chance of succeeding if you had sheer force of numbers behind you ? I am assuming that if this issue is important enough to cause a strain then it is something that you would want to do all you can to push through ? Right now I believe that there is a huge % of Gooners just waiting for any type of serious issue that will allow the fans to unite and take on the club and this seems to be undervalued by organisations like ast and aisa.

Why is wenger and gazidas never challenged publicly ? All the time I ask fans who still believe in wenger if they would still support him if he was only appointed manager in 2007 and I seldom get an answer When wenger goes I know that whatever manager replaces him will not be allowed to turn in 5 years performance in the job that wenger has and still be retained by the club. Sentimentality seems to be the main reason for keeping wenger (even if they can't acknowledge that ) but as much as I would love to see TA6, PV4 and the great Dennis Bergkamp still playing for our club, I realise that their day has been and gone and it is time some people applied that logic with their beloved leader

Again, those are questions for the AST board members. From what I've picked up by osmosis, there's a bit of a decision for the AST because there is some tension. Do you become more hostile and end up shouting at a shut door, or do you compromise a bit and maintain the ability to escalate concerns to the CEO? The AST board still meets Gazidis on a monthly basis. I suppose, to use an extreme analogy, it's kind of like when Kombat 18 formed a splinter from the BNP. It was a split between people who wanted to compromise a little to get seats in parliament and at least get their voices in the public arena and the people who want to go militant and keep with plain old action, no matter who it pisses off. Do you maintain pure action, which is then neutered anyway because nobody pays any attention to you? Or do you compromise a little but then get a public platform? Different people will always have different views on that. I'm not sure which road the AST will eventually go down. But those are just my impressions.

And there's little need to keep saying "your" and "you" in reference to the AST when responding to my posts. I must have said a hundred times on this thread I'm not a politician and I'm not a "company man." It just reinforces, even subsconsciously, these irritating divisions between Arsenal fans that so many are trying to drive. In any case, none of the strategic decisions the AST makes have anything to do with me, I'm just calling what I see.

Tim, I appreciate you coming on here as personally I don't know too much about the AST, their aims, their ambitions in terms of what they hope to achieve etc, so thanks for enlightening me a little about them as a group.
People can of course belong to a group without having to agree with every single thing that they stand for, so if posters have labelled you and AST as one and the same please just take it that it was not meant to imply that you somehow agree the agenda of AST.

More info from you regarding the AST's position as the season unfolds would be very welcome in my book.