Hillsborough Report

[StuartL]

PM David Cameron's speech in the House of Commons today

"Todays report is Black and White
The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster
The panel found no evidence in support of allegations of exceptional levels of drunkness,ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans,no evidence that fans conspired to arrive late at the stadium and no evidence they stole from the dead"

Just what does "exceptional levels" mean ??

What are the acceptable levels of drunkeness, ticketlessness and violence ??

It wasn't the poor soles at the front who died that would have been, possibly ticketless, possibly drunk or possibly forcing their way in was it. Those who got there early, in an orderly fashion and were watching the pre match build up were the ones who had the unfortunate events forced apon them.

Those who were let in, through weight of numbers, wouldn't have been tested for alchohol, etc. as they weren't there for the police /m.examiner to test - only the bodies / severely injured would have been.

No evidence that they conspired to arrive late, doesn't alter the case that many, many, did turn up just proir to ko and the ludicrous decision to let them in without checking tickets, and without proper supervision to prevent overcrowding was made.

That decision along with the hinderence to the medical services needs addressing and potential prosecuting of those liable along with those, who have lied, altered statements etc.

RIP to all those who perished, hope the families get some closure and comfort from the guilty authorities being outed, but it is time that the equally guilty fans of LFC admitted their portion of the blame too.

[Perryashburtongroves]

I am shocked at how far this report and Cameron's speech went today. Stupid question but is the full exonerating of Liverpool fans today just an attempt to end the whole sorry chapter ?. Was it a case of "look it wasn't your fault , we admit it, now forget it and move on "..? Obviously compensation claims etc will mean it's far from over.
I have deep sympathy for the victims and their families. I hope they get peace of mind and closure, but as a football fan I cannot help but think of Heysel. I cannot help but remember that horrid night and actually thinking to myself that football was finished, as a sport it had no future. I cannot help remembering the screams of people at Turin Airport as bodies arrived home. And whether they or the media like it or not that night in Brussels is as much part of Liverpool's history as that afternoon in Sheffield. I am not trying to sensationalize this, and I'm not even trying to link the two tragedys, but football fans went to Heysel and never went home. That was the fault of Liverpool supporters. Why are the Juventus dead
not just ignored but airbrushed from "acceptable thinking" ?
We all know that football was horribly different to attend then, every fan was a hooligan even if/when proved otherwise. The net result of today is that those that needed to be vindicated were vindicated, and maybe got a few others less deserving vindicated as well.

Very good post and very well put.

[arseofacrow]

Maybe we should put this all to rest...I can't see us getting anywhere with this other than aggravating or more importantly, upsetting someone who has been genuinely affected by this.

I say this because the main crux of getting the report was what could have been donefor the dying after the artifical cut-off point. The rest we can speculate about but then we've doing that for years and it will never end as some things will always remain a mystery.

[skizz_b]

PM David Cameron's speech in the House of Commons today

"Todays report is Black and White
The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster
The panel found no evidence in support of allegations of exceptional levels of drunkness,ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans,no evidence that fans conspired to arrive late at the stadium and no evidence they stole from the dead"

And if this report didnt say that then there would have been another enquiry and another after that until the scousers got the verdict they wanted I would have a lot more sympathy with the scousers (not the families of course cos they totally have my sympathy) if they just came out and admitted that they played a big part in what happened that day and that led to the almighty balls up by the cops but in true scouse tradition they are always the victims and never the guilty party

Btw skizz_b, tv footage shown that night was time stamped and showed the world that they did indeed turn up late at the gates. This footage was shown before cover ups were instigated. I cannot understand how genuine scousers that survived that day have never came out and spoke about why that crush started Yes I know that they are all scousers but at the end of the day if it was a mate or relation of mine that died then I would want proper justice that see's all guilty parties held accountable

fair play augie. top post mate. was this the cctv footage that went missing?

there are a few top posts in this thread by the way chaps

[Red Snapper]

I am shocked at how far this report and Cameron's speech went today. Stupid question but is the full exonerating of Liverpool fans today just an attempt to end the whole sorry chapter ?. Was it a case of "look it wasn't your fault , we admit it, now forget it and move on "..? Obviously compensation claims etc will mean it's far from over.
I have deep sympathy for the victims and their families. I hope they get peace of mind and closure, but as a football fan I cannot help but think of Heysel. I cannot help but remember that horrid night and actually thinking to myself that football was finished, as a sport it had no future. I cannot help remembering the screams of people at Turin Airport as bodies arrived home. And whether they or the media like it or not that night in Brussels is as much part of Liverpool's history as that afternoon in Sheffield. I am not trying to sensationalize this, and I'm not even trying to link the two tragedys, but football fans went to Heysel and never went home. That was the fault of Liverpool supporters. Why are the Juventus dead
not just ignored but airbrushed from "acceptable thinking" ?
We all know that football was horribly different to attend then, every fan was a hooligan even if/when proved otherwise. The net result of today is that those that needed to be vindicated were vindicated, and maybe got a few others less deserving vindicated as well.

That is just about the best summing up of the situation I have seen or heard today.

[northbank123]

PM David Cameron's speech in the House of Commons today

"Todays report is Black and White
The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster
The panel found no evidence in support of allegations of exceptional levels of drunkness,ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans,no evidence that fans conspired to arrive late at the stadium and no evidence they stole from the dead"

Just what does "exceptional levels" mean ??

What are the acceptable levels of drunkeness, ticketlessness and violence ??

It wasn't the poor soles at the front who died that would have been, possibly ticketless, possibly drunk or possibly forcing their way in was it.

Those who got there early, in an orderly fashion and were watching the pre match build up were the ones who had the unfortunate events forced apon them.

Those who were let in, through weight of numbers, wouldn't have been tested for alchohol, etc. as they weren't there for the police /m.examiner to test - only the bodies / severely injured would have been.

No evidence that they conspired to arrive late, doesn't alter the case that many, many, did turn up just proir to ko and the ludicrous decision to let them in without checking tickets, and without proper supervision to prevent overcrowding was made.

That decision along with the hinderence to the medical services needs addressing and potential prosecuting of those liable along with those, who have lied, altered statements etc.

RIP to all those who perished, hope the families get some closure and comfort from the guilty authorities being outed, but it is time that the equally guilty fans of LFC admitted their portion of the blame too.

That's the huge gap in the reporting of this story. The police were a disgrace in the aftermath but surely the fans that were in the front had got there in plenty of time, with tickets, and less likely to be pissed out of their minds. But how does that exonerate the fans who did turn up really late and piled in (including climbing over walls) without tickets? The emergency services' incompetence tragically facilitated 96 horrible deaths but it still required the behaviour of droves of Liverpool fans.

Media outlets are scared to give any analysis to this effect. Many of them report that part of the problem was that Liverpool were given fewer tickets than Forest, who were a club with a smaller following, and that this contributed to it. That would only actually be a problem if fans without tickets still turned up and tried to force their way in, but of course nobody will mention this.

Kelvin McKenzie is a shitbag and what he said today didn't even nearly approach what I would consider an apology, but then again Liverpool's 'apology' to Juventus was 20 years later to hold up a banner when they played each other saying "Friendship".

I can only echo the sentiments already expressed on here about the horror and tragedy of 96 needless deaths, and the thought of so many people going to a football game and never coming back is harrowing, but the fact the police have disgraced themselves doesn't mean that Liverpool fans have absolutely no blame and that the culture of victimisation is completely justified.

[clockender1]

there's not just one person or body to blame here - who put the fences up, who issued the safety certificate for leppings lane ? who was late ? who let them in ? who didn't steward properly ?

i think its pretty hard for anyone who wasn't there to know what a match experience was like in the 80's - the police, FA and government treated us fans like animals and we often behaved like them in a depressed run down Britain under Thatcher.

it wasn't just football fans either, i went on a few student marches and we were treated the same, like cattle with no thought of our safety. I think the protesting miners would have felt the same.

I don't ever remember the Sports Minister(Moynihan ?) and that government ever treating young britons with anything other than open contempt and that was how we were policed - in fact i remember the opposite when ken bates wanted electric fences for the home fans at the Bridge, the government didn't stop him, it was the threat of court action from the land owners wasn't it ?

our safety wasn't a factor in match day planning, otherwise those fences would have had gates and the cops wouldn't have herded the latecomers in without a care.

so the responsibility has to be shared around - those who died were largely innocent this time, but the government, its ministers, FA, the police, the safety officer, the club and the late fans all have to have some blood on their hands.

I was then, and always will be proud that we never had fences at The Arsenal - because our club respected us despite the wider sickness that plagued 1980's Britain.

it didn't stop us wading in or invading the pitch on occasion mind

[augie]

there's not just one person or body to blame here - who put the fences up, who issued the safety certificate for leppings lane ? who was late ? who let them in ? who didn't steward properly ?

i think its pretty hard for anyone who wasn't there to know what a match experience was like in the 80's - the police, FA and government treated us fans like animals and we often behaved like them in a depressed run down Britain under Thatcher.

it wasn't just football fans either, i went on a few student marches and we were treated the same, like cattle with no thought of our safety. I think the protesting miners would have felt the same.

I don't ever remember the Sports Minister(Moynihan ?) and that government ever treating young britons with anything other than open contempt and that was how we were policed - in fact i remember the opposite when ken bates wanted electric fences for the home fans at the Bridge, the government didn't stop him, it was the threat of court action from the land owners wasn't it ?

our safety wasn't a factor in match day planning, otherwise those fences would have had gates and the cops wouldn't have herded the latecomers in without a care.

so the responsibility has to be shared around - those who died were largely innocent this time, but the government, its ministers, FA, the police, the safety officer, the club and the late fans all have to have some blood on their hands.

I was then, and always will be proud that we never had fences at The Arsenal - because our club respected us despite the wider sickness that plagued 1980's Britain.

it didn't stop us wading in or invading the pitch on occasion mind

I remember that too - I think that it was after their fans rioted at the end of a relegation play off game (they had them prior to the play off promotion system that we now have) against the mackems wasn't it ? I remember thinking at the time that Ken bates was a shrewd man

[QuartzGooner]

The cages at Hillsborough had a small gate at the front.
But it was locked, and took a while to be opened whilst the stewards searched for the key.

Same nonsense as happened at King Cross 1987 when most of the fire equipment was stored in a locked cupboard, and the key was held by a station worker who had gone on his break to another station.
Thank G-D the game was the night before, that fire was the night after a game at Highbury, 24 hours earlier and a lot of Gooners would have been on that escalator, many more deaths.

Health and Safety can be oppressive, but better that than the lax situation we had in this country 20 years ago.

Once again I mention WHL, this time the semi-final replay Littlewoods Cup 1987, David Rocastle and Ian Allinson scorers.
Jam packed that night too, but not as bad as the second leg of the semi.

I climbed the fence that night, celebrating, and to get respite from the crowd pressure as I was right at the front.
I stopped short of going on the pitch, but a bloke next to me who did got smacked in the mouth by a fat copper.

[Trippyarsenal]

To be quite honest I'm disgusted with some of the comments in this thread, innocent people died at Hillsborough due to police negligence, the people of Liverpool then had to suffer 23 years of the most vile cover up /smear campaign.
Anyone who was at games in the 80's will have stories to tell of how fans were treated, this could have happened to any club.
May I suggest people read the report and digest it before making comments which quite frankly make you look like scum
I'll help you by posting the link to the report
RIP the 96 football fans, yes football fans like all of us who tragically died through no fault of their own
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

[MutleyGooner]

To be quite honest I'm disgusted with some of the comments in this thread, innocent people died at Hillsborough due to police negligence, the people of Liverpool then had to suffer 23 years of the most vile cover up /smear campaign.
Anyone who was at games in the 80's will have stories to tell of how fans were treated, this could have happened to any club.
May I suggest people read the report and digest it before making comments which quite frankly make you look like scum
I'll help you by posting the link to the report
RIP the 96 football fans, yes football fans like all of us who tragically died through no fault of their own
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

Oh sorry I hadn't realised that it was the Yorkshire police that had arrived late and were at the back pushing

[Barriecuda]

This has been a fascinating case to watch from afar. Up to a few years ago, I knew nothing of Hillsborough, Heysel, or of controversies regarding the former. My very uninformed thought has to be this however:

In a case where 96 people lost their lives by literally being crushed (awful, awful stuff; RIP to them) how can anybody realistically say "it was only the fault of X group, and Y group is completely exonerated"?

In a massive catastrophe like this, everything contributes. That's what calamities like this are bred from - horrible consequences of many smaller failings along the way.

Perhaps I'm biased as I've heard the Liverpool supporters called "Victims" before and I've always been surprised at how long-standing the issues from 1989 are (even considering the magnitude of loss) but to me I have to echo the sentiments of other posters - if it hasn't been dropped as an issue after 23 years, was a lot of this reaction largely to curb the seemingly never-placated demands for 'justice'?

I simply think in all practicality, it would be impossible to conclude that a major tragedy like this was only the result of one or two groups egregiously screwing up. That seems far too unfair on those groups, even if they are due for more blame than originally reported.

[flash gunner]

Anyone who was at games in the 80's will have stories to tell of how fans were treated, this could have happened to any club.

I was going to games in the 80's i was even at Arsenal the day of Hillsbrough and youre right it could have happened to anyone going to football at that time but why didnt it? Why was liverpool involved in 2 of the worst footballing tragedies in history within 4 years of eachother? Coincidence? bad luck?

[LDB]

May I suggest people read the report and digest it before making comments which quite frankly make you look like scum
I'll help you by posting the link to the report
RIP the 96 football fans, yes football fans like all of us who tragically died through no fault of their own
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

Not a single person on this thread has blamed the people who died for their own death or disrespected them in any way. Personally I'm not sure who was most to blame that day but I do question just how independent this 'independent panel' is when the first thing it does is meet with the families of the 96. Surely an independent investigation of the facts wouldn't go anywhere near such high emotion, at least not right from the outset.

I'm not saying it is but its not inconceivable that this report is just as much of a whitewash as Taylor ever was.

[LDB]

Oh, and btw