THE WENGER THREAD

[clockender1]

I do understand a lot of the frustration with Wenger - i feel a lot of it myself.

the question is how to replace him. i'm not convinced that the board have that figured out - what with the talk of a new six year deal etc.

last year was the final straw for many, me included at times but if he delivers the FA Cup and league runners up, i'd consider that a turnaround.

that united side was poor last year ( would nani or rafeal get in our side ? - Carrick ? lol...) - and so were Chelsea and us, City were marginally better. the PL is much more open again this year - maybe the foreign and british talent is spread out more due to the big spending ?

in any case, i think we are getting better and if he delivers then good. if not we need to pressure the board to start teh transition - when you look at how many shite managers villa, spuds, liverpool, chelsea etc have had, we just can't jettison AW and hope to pick up some rising star or pay a fortune to pep, mourinho or Rijkaard ( its not going to happen) or whoever happens to be free.

otherwise we really could be back to Don Howe, which would be a tragedy with this current squad...Djourou excepted.

[armchair]

I really fail to understand how any footballl supporter (never mind an Arsenal supporter) can consider balancing the books and finishing fourth as "success".
Waffling about "net spend" and "finances" like they are trophies really is foreign to me. But it shows how the old Wenger-speak bollox has brainwashed the fans. (Or maybe they just want or need to believe the spni. Something to brag about cause theres fuck all else)

As for "spunking millions". Wenger has "spunked millions" on the likes of Arshavin, Squillachi, Djourou, Almunia, Flappy for fukin years. The list goes on.

And the "vitriol" Wenger gets. He doesn't get "vitriol" except on on-line forum like here as far as I can hear. Gets his fukin name sung every week for winning nowt. Hes really got it cushy. Win fuk all, just achieve the absolute, bare minimum. Stay comfortable in your mediocrity and heres another hefty pay-cheque.

He deserves much, much worse than he gets. In any other walk of life his feet wouldn't touch the fukin ground after the record-breaking defeats, humiliations, poor runs, shambolic transfer windows etc, etc.....

[armchair]

I've an idea........
Maybe we should judge him in May eh?

And then again theres always jam tomorrow..........

[Vinny1967]

I don't deem it as success necessarily. Finishing 19 points behind an average manure is not good enough. Personally I think we should be competing every year.

Your usual charges of being brainwashed is funny. Did it ever occur to you that the majority of people who chant his name and support him may actually be right and actually appreciate what he has done and what they believe he still can do ?

You claim that people talking about finances is alien to you, yet you have no problem castigating Wenger for wasting millions. If finances did not matter why even mention it Wenger's ''waste'' is arguably less than his direct management competitors which was the point I was making. Squallaci vs Veron

Of course money matter's. We don't have, what our competitors have, and we can't afford to match them financially. This rules out going for a manager of the likes of Capello, Rijkyard, Mourinho so we have to have a manager who can compete with youth and bargain buys and I personally think we have one.

Again it all boils down to whether people believe he can achieve success again. If people don't that's fine I can completely understand that.

[clockender1]

I really fail to understand how any footballl supporter (never mind an Arsenal supporter) can consider balancing the books and finishing fourth as "success".
.

Arsenal from August 1971 to April 1989 mate....

we saw one FA Cup, one League Cup & one Fairs Cup (79, 97 and 72 or 70 ?).

we would have dreamed of being 4th in any of those years.

18 seasons that was. one trophy every six years.

the 1960's were the same, the 1950;s a little better.

[armchair]

I really fail to understand how any footballl supporter (never mind an Arsenal supporter) can consider balancing the books and finishing fourth as "success".
.

Arsenal from August 1971 to April 1989 mate....

we saw one FA Cup, one League Cup & one Fairs Cup (79, 97 and 72 or 70 ?).

we would have dreamed of being 4th in any of those years.

18 seasons that was. one trophy every six years.

the 1960's were the same, the 1950;s a little better.

So these last 7 trophyless years have been a success because we still failed to win anything but we finished higher than we did in the seventies?
I've NEVER wanted Arsenal to finish fourth. Finishing fourth or third is NOT success ffs. Not in the seventies, or eighties or now.
We've gone from being an unbeaten team with unlimited potential to being content with a top four finish. Thats what wenger has done - hes convinced us to be comfortable with failure and the board are happy to oblige him and allow him to indulge himself with his failed project.

Fourth place is NOT a trophy
Balancing the books is NOT success

I've never sung any Arsenal song about how financially stable we are or how we finished fourth at Shite Hart Lane.
I'm just a gooner. All this bollox about net spends, financial stability is AKB smokescreens to deflect blame from their diety

[armchair]

You claim that people talking about finances is alien to you, yet you have no problem castigating Wenger for wasting millions. If finances did not matter why even mention it Wenger's ''waste'' is arguably less than his direct management competitors which was the point I was making. Squallaci vs Veron

I was just responding to your point about if, Wenger "spunked millions" remember, this one...?

.........if he spunked 30 million on a flop, spunked countless millions on big name signings that did not work out.......

Well there is no if - he already has "spunked millions" and continues to do so on "flops"

[Vinny1967]

You claim that people talking about finances is alien to you, yet you have no problem castigating Wenger for wasting millions. If finances did not matter why even mention it Wenger's ''waste'' is arguably less than his direct management competitors which was the point I was making. Squallaci vs Veron

I was just responding to your point about if, Wenger "spunked millions" remember, this one...?

.........if he spunked 30 million on a flop, spunked countless millions on big name signings that did not work out.......

Well there is no if - he already has "spunked millions" and continues to do so on "flops"

But he has not spent 30 million to purchase a flop which was the point I was making.
Red nose has wasted far more than Wenger has but I suppose in previous seasons they could afford the mistakes. Not any more methinks.

[armchair]

You claim that people talking about finances is alien to you, yet you have no problem castigating Wenger for wasting millions. If finances did not matter why even mention it Wenger's ''waste'' is arguably less than his direct management competitors which was the point I was making. Squallaci vs Veron

I was just responding to your point about if, Wenger "spunked millions" remember, this one...?

.........if he spunked 30 million on a flop, spunked countless millions on big name signings that did not work out.......

Well there is no if - he already has "spunked millions" and continues to do so on "flops"

But he has not spent 30 million to purchase a flop which was the point I was making.
Red nose has wasted far more than Wenger has but I suppose in previous seasons they could afford the mistakes. Not any more methinks.

I do understand your point. What I'm saying really is that with the millions hes "spunked" and continues "spunking" on the likes of Djourou, Squillachi, Arseshavin, Almunia, Flappy, Denilson, Bentner, Chamack etc we could have had at least a couple of "marquee" signings like we've been crying out for these past few years.

[Vinny1967]

I agree. I think he went overboard with his belief in a lot of these players and tied them to long term contracts. Defo could have been better spent elsewhere.

I do like that he has gone and purchased players that are older. Santi, Caz and to a lesser extent Giroud can bring so much to the training ground and the team as they have learnt so much already and can bring that to the team. Don't think he will ever give up on youth but I do think he has gone someway to addressing the inadequacies in the squad.

Is it enough for this season ? I guess only time will tell.

[clockender1]

[
So these last 7 trophyless years have been a success because we still failed to win anything but we finished higher than we did in the seventies?

on a relative basis yes.

if you suffered through the 60's, 70's and 80's then you probably ARE happy with fourth, which is why there are so many AKB's and on-the'fencers.

i'm just explaining it to you mate, don't shoot the messenger eh ?

[g88ner]

united 2011

Van Der Sar, Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand (as he was back then), Scholes, Giggs, Berbatov, Rooney

That's more than two mate.

Interestingly, of the world class players you've mentioned, that season Scholes started only 16 league games, whereas Giggs and Ferdinand only started 19 games apiece.

And Berbatov, despite scoring a hat full, ended up losing his place that season and never really ever got it back. He wasn't even selected in the squad for the CL final.

As for Van der Sar... I'm not so sure he was world class at that point. He was 39 and at the very end of his career.

Vidic and Rooney... absolutely.

I know from your last post that you very much disagree with me, but I really do believe United have shown that having great togetherness and will to win makes up for the fact that their squad isn't jam packed with superstars. Alex Ferguson is the key to that. Just my humble opinion.

[I Hate Hleb]

I really fail to understand how any footballl supporter (never mind an Arsenal supporter) can consider balancing the books and finishing fourth as "success".
.

Arsenal from August 1971 to April 1989 mate....

we saw one FA Cup, one League Cup & one Fairs Cup (79, 97 and 72 or 70 ?).

we would have dreamed of being 4th in any of those years....

Didn't need to 'dream' as we finished in the top 4 four times during those 17 years and top 6 in 9 of the seasons, and in the top 7 in 12 of them. So although we were no big shakes then, things weren't quite as bad as you portrayed them. Mind you, I shouldn't really be surprised at your lack of knowledge given the fact that you can't accurately remember the years when we won the Fairs Cup and the League Cup!!

[MM99]

Interestingly, of the world class players you've mentioned, that season Scholes started only 16 league games, whereas Giggs and Ferdinand only started 19 games apiece.

And Berbatov, despite scoring a hat full, ended up losing his place that season and never really ever got it back. He wasn't even selected in the squad for the CL final.

As for Van der Sar... I'm not so sure he was world class at that point. He was 39 and at the very end of his career.

Vidic and Rooney... absolutely.

I know from your last post that you very much disagree with me, but I really do believe United have shown that having great togetherness and will to win makes up for the fact that their squad isn't jam packed with superstars. Alex Ferguson is the key to that. Just my humble opinion.

The fact is Utd could still bring those players on to influence and win games. And as they were truly world class players they did in fact win Utd the game many times when it seemed like they were headed for a draw/loss.

Same for Berbatov. He scored a shit load of goals and was a truly world class striker. The fact that he was left out of games towards the end of the season doesn't retract from that.

VDS was probably the best keeper in the league that season and i distinctly remember him pulling off great saves and having that feeling that our strikers were gonna have a hard time beating him everytime we played Utd.

Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent and you're getting too bogged down in the specifics of utd's team while missing my overall point that one or two quality players are not enough to win you the league. You need a whole team full of them and a handful of them to be world class quality. Utd's teams have always had quality players supplemented by a core of world class players. City finally managed to get a core together like that last season and won the league.

My ultimate point is that under the current mentality of the club, no matter who the manager is, we will never be in that position where we can boast to have the same amount of world class players as our rivals. They will either choose to leave or the club will cash in on them. Simple as that. We will always fall just short of winning the league when we can only boast to have a maximum of 2/3 world class players at a push.

[kiwomyaswetdream]

I may sound like an ass for saying this but the one thing I love about being an Arsenal supporter is my fellow supporters.

I feel we are a pretty grounded and fair bunch who can have a reasoned fair argument or debate with anyone ( apart from the sp*ds as they talk a constant flow of shite, its like opening a sewing pipe and it all falls out, "swing of power in nth london" "lennons awesome" blah blah blah )...... But..... Lets not get too stupid here. Wenger will need replacing within the next 3-4 years even if he stays. He may even leave sooner but lets look at the facts here.

All the big, top drawer, fantastic managers are not as awesome as some would believe.
Mourinho, Pep, Ferguson - the big three in terms of achievements, all would not have done much without major investment. Taking the red one out of the equation would i want pep or the special one? F*** NO!!!!
We could not bankroll their wishes and most other managers that would be interested would all require that same financing. Nearly all of the big coaches in any of the 'big' leagues spend to buy success. We are just not set up that way so we can all forget us purchasing our way to glory...and surely thats a good thing.

If i had to choose a new coach tomorrow, I would go for Klopp. He is a fantastic manager who is balancing the books at Dortmund while playing some great football. His overall philosophy is right up our street.