Have you ever been so disillusioned ?

[augie]

The day that GG left the club was a sad day for me given that we had been very successful under him and he had brought back the old Arsenal spirit and pride to the club The sad part was the fact that they sacked him - I agree that things were gone stale and a change was probably necessary but for me, given all he had done for the club, he should have been offered a chance to resign and if he refused then they could sack him

Lets not forget augie Graham was sacked for effectively stealing from the club which he was then found guilty of by the FA, it had nothing to do with footballing reasons. The rest of your post i agree with 100%

Two issue's with this flash -

1. I know people in the building industry (and I am only using them as an example) who get brought on excusions and jolly up's by suppliers as a thank you for doing business with them......is that any different than GG's situation ? The FA panel agreed that GG bought those players for genuine reasons having scouted them many times so a kick back wasnt his motivation

2. I didnt say that GG shouldnt have been sacked but should have been offered the chance to resign first - personally I dont and never did give a flying fcuk how the rest of the world perceives us so sacking him just to show the rest of the footballing world how tough we are on that type of behaviour is unacceptable to me

[SteveO 35]

The day that GG left the club was a sad day for me given that we had been very successful under him and he had brought back the old Arsenal spirit and pride to the club The sad part was the fact that they sacked him - I agree that things were gone stale and a change was probably necessary but for me, given all he had done for the club, he should have been offered a chance to resign and if he refused then they could sack him

Lets not forget augie Graham was sacked for effectively stealing from the club which he was then found guilty of by the FA, it had nothing to do with footballing reasons

fair enough flash he was but also gave the board at the time the excuse to get rid of him. graham had got too much control at the club and felt he was arsenal , now dont get me wrong here and i loved gg a lot , won us titles i thought i would never see and gave the club back our pride and back to been londons number one club.but 92-93 he had lost it .

Agree with both Flash and REB to an extent here. The football was becoming very stale under GG towards the end and the lack of signings was similar to now. We were missing out on the Roy Keane's of this world and instead opting to over promote the Morrow, Selley, Hillier's. Smudger was winding down and it was all about whether Wrighty would nick us a goal and cling on to 1-0 with our great defence. GG simply gave the board the right opportunity with what he did - which he knows himself was completely wrong

The key difference with GG was that there was always something to play for - he never, ever treated the cup competitions with the disdain that Wenger does. The demise set in from 1993 onwards, but even then we won both domestic cups that year, followed by the CWC win in 94, and another CWC final in 1995. There was always a big day out - a cup for fans to cling to, even if the league form was shite.

What do we have now - an actual admission from our manager, endorsed by his employers, that its all about qualifying for the CL. Sorry, but that doesn't excite fans. All of my best memories as a Gooner were linked to cups and trophies - seeing my first trophy in the flesh when we ruined Rush's Liverpool record in the '87 league cup final for example. It didn't matter to me that it was 'just the League Cup' then and nor would it have mattered to me in 2011 if we'd beaten Birmingham. I've got a 12 year old son who just about remembers us winning the 2005 FA Cup. That's his highlight - not finishing 3rd or 4th every year.

Perhaps its not just us but I do feel this rewarding 4th place nonsense is exactly that - we just embrace it fully as a club. I read in Gary Neville's book how he credits their League Cup final win over Wigan as the catalyst that saw them overturn the Chavs in the seasons that followed - new players that joined the club had won a trophy after 3 years without the title and it meant something to them and the fans. Our youngsters are positively encouraged to sneer at the cups and view them as a sorry inconvenience in the pursuit of 4th place.

Really desperate times and I'm afraid for a while there is no way out of it

[highburyJD]

what would it take for you to be 're-illusioned'?

1- sales: write off those players that everyone has listed for ages (Denilson, Chamakh, Bendtner and Squillaci)
in a perfect world maybe one of Rambo, Santos or Arshavin could hit instant form and save their Arsenal career
but I doubt it if they're not one of our star players by Jan 1st, sell them too

2- purchases, 4 of them: LB - direct competition for Gibbs,
GK - direct competition for Szcz,
Forward - fill in for Gervinho (could be a loan, Henry?)
Forward - instant goal scoring starter - to do that without spending big would be a miracle.
Preferably a big name to boost our profile.

Can we muddle by on the GK/LB front? Maybe. But whatever happens we need a striker, and they need to be able to hit the ground running.

[SteveO 35]

what would it take for you to be 're-illusioned'?

1- sales: write off those players that everyone has listed for ages (Denilson, Chamakh, Bendtner and Squillaci)
in a perfect world maybe one of Rambo, Santos or Arshavin could hit instant form and save their Arsenal career
but I doubt it if they're not one of our star players by Jan 1st, sell them too

2- purchases, 4 of them: LB - direct competition for Gibbs,
GK - direct competition for Szcz,
Forward - fill in for Gervinho (could be a loan, Henry?)
Forward - instant goal scoring starter - to do that without spending big would be a miracle.
Preferably a big name to boost our profile.

Can we muddle by on the GK/LB front? Maybe. But whatever happens we need a striker, and they need to be able to hit the ground running.

Its not as simple as that mate. It starts with treating supporters with respect, listening to their genuine concerns about ticket pricing and other issues.

It continues with not selling our best players every season and not reporting 'profits from football related activities' as some sort of sideshow to the more lucrative property developments that the club so eagerly pursues. Read the report and accounts - its almost as if the world ends when property related profits are down

The core business of this company is football - always has been and always will be. Having worked in investment manager and been an FD of companies, I can tell you that one of constant questions asked is 'what are you going to do with cash' if you have it sat there in a pile in your bank account (especially in an age where the interest it attracts is diddly squat). Investors want to see profits re-invested taking the company to its next level - new products, new services, bigger, better, faster. In a free float plc environment I can tell you now that the club's balance sheet would be under fire from shareholders - why isn't the cash being reinvested into its core business, our competitors are overtaking us, if you're not going to use it then distribute it as a dividend and we'll invest our money in a more ambitious business

How they are running this club is unacceptable. Every penny you give them is a penny that Kroenke can take 66p out of whenever he sees fit.

Basically to become re-illusioned it will take either a completely new ownership and management structure or an admission that this strategy is not working and a re-concentration on what Arsenal is all about i.e. football, and investing in a squad of players that win things and in turn attract more fans and better sponsorships.....whilst of course delivering fans the simple pleasures they crave i.e. being treated respectfully and seeing what they pay in ticket prices reflected by the standard of the team that wears the shirt

[flash gunner]

The day that GG left the club was a sad day for me given that we had been very successful under him and he had brought back the old Arsenal spirit and pride to the club The sad part was the fact that they sacked him - I agree that things were gone stale and a change was probably necessary but for me, given all he had done for the club, he should have been offered a chance to resign and if he refused then they could sack him

Lets not forget augie Graham was sacked for effectively stealing from the club which he was then found guilty of by the FA, it had nothing to do with footballing reasons. The rest of your post i agree with 100%

Two issue's with this flash -

1. I know people in the building industry (and I am only using them as an example) who get brought on excusions and jolly up's by suppliers as a thank you for doing business with them......is that any different than GG's situation ? The FA panel agreed that GG bought those players for genuine reasons having scouted them many times so a kick back wasnt his motivation

The problem as i see it wasn't just the bung but how he came by the money, Arsenal bought Jensen for £2.5 million and when we played Brondby in the Cup Winners Cup both the sets of board members were talking about the deal and it came out that Brondby only received £2.3 million and the £200,000 that neither club knew about was kept/given to both Graham and Hauge.

Now you put that into a normal situation of asking a mate to buy you a car, giving him cash and he buys for less than tell you and keeps the rest its stealing in my book

2. I didnt say that GG shouldnt have been sacked but should have been offered the chance to resign first - personally I dont and never did give a flying fcuk how the rest of the world perceives us so sacking him just to show the rest of the footballing world how tough we are on that type of behaviour is unacceptable to me

Seeing as he was effectively caught stealing from the 'firm' i think sacking was the only option

[flash gunner]

The day that GG left the club was a sad day for me given that we had been very successful under him and he had brought back the old Arsenal spirit and pride to the club The sad part was the fact that they sacked him - I agree that things were gone stale and a change was probably necessary but for me, given all he had done for the club, he should have been offered a chance to resign and if he refused then they could sack him

Lets not forget augie Graham was sacked for effectively stealing from the club which he was then found guilty of by the FA, it had nothing to do with footballing reasons

fair enough flash he was but also gave the board at the time the excuse to get rid of him. graham had got too much control at the club and felt he was arsenal , now dont get me wrong here and i loved gg a lot , won us titles i thought i would never see and gave the club back our pride and back to been londons number one club.but 92-93 he had lost it .

Maybe youre right and they wanted to sack him but officially he was sacked for the bung, we'll never know for certain either way mate

[REB]

The day that GG left the club was a sad day for me given that we had been very successful under him and he had brought back the old Arsenal spirit and pride to the club The sad part was the fact that they sacked him - I agree that things were gone stale and a change was probably necessary but for me, given all he had done for the club, he should have been offered a chance to resign and if he refused then they could sack him

Lets not forget augie Graham was sacked for effectively stealing from the club which he was then found guilty of by the FA, it had nothing to do with footballing reasons. The rest of your post i agree with 100%

Two issue's with this flash -

1. I know people in the building industry (and I am only using them as an example) who get brought on excusions and jolly up's by suppliers as a thank you for doing business with them......is that any different than GG's situation ? The FA panel agreed that GG bought those players for genuine reasons having scouted them many times so a kick back wasnt his motivation

2. I didnt say that GG shouldnt have been sacked but should have been offered the chance to resign first - personally I dont and never did give a flying fcuk how the rest of the world perceives us so sacking him just to show the rest of the footballing world how tough we are on that type of behaviour is unacceptable to me

sorry augie but cant compare a golf outing or dinner with been paid 300g in a brown paper bag, when lydersen was bought we the club paid something like 1.5mill while his club recieved only 550thou. grahams time was up back then as is wengers now.

[hugh jardon]

My first season attending Highbury was 86/87. After watching the 87 Littlewoods Cup final on TV my dad said to me "It's not always like this, we don't win something every season". I was fortunate enough to begin my love affair with the club at the beginning of a period where we would be winning things almost every season! Or at least genuinely competing for them.

He had been a ST holder in the 60's and 70's and I was brought up with stories of Swindon 69, Ipswich 78, West Ham 80, Walsall 83 and York 85 as well as all the glorious victories of his time, so I guess I have grown up with a balanced view of life as a football supporter and understand you can't win them all.

Personally my lowest Arsenal moments that spring to mind have been Wrexham andReal Zaragoza, as we were favourites in these games. Also the 6-1 and 8-2 defeats at Man U more recently. However I accept as an Arsenal supporter from 86 to present the good times far outweigh the bad times on the pitch.

It is off the pitch that concerns me, the club is clearly more interested in cash over trophies. Selling RVP our captain and top goal scorer to one of our main domestic rivals backs this up - he even cited the club's lack of ambition as a reason why he wanted out. Out top players are just valuable assets to be sold rather than cherished and kept.

4th place and CL qualification is now described as "a trophy" - I'd say it should be a minimum requirement.

We the fans are expected to pay the highest ticket prices in the world (plus expensive membership fees and booking fees) and yet the club only buys and pays B-list or C-list players whilst paying the manager and CEO A-list wages!

The local match-going fans are being taken for granted whilst the club cannot give it's overseas fans enough coverage - when was the last time any local fan's opinions were featured in the programme or website? Do they really think we care what the USA, Canada or Chinese supporters think?! Obviously the club hopes to sell some more shirts in these countries!

PHW is clearly out of touch with the fan's sentiments and Gazidis is a smug spin doctor who bores people with bluff rather than give a straight answer. Kroenke will be paying himself dividends soon, before he sells his majority sharehold in a few years time- at a tidy profit - that's all he is concerned about.

We miss David Dein hugely in terms of his ambition, ability and relationship with the fans.

[flash gunner]

Good post Hugh

[DB10GOONER]

There is no comparison between GG stealing from us and builders being brought on a jolly. I loved GG, still fucking do, but he stole from The Arsenal and was rightly sacked. The thing that also sickened me was that most managers were up to that type of shit but the media scapegoated GG and Arsenal and kúnts at other clubs were quietly allowed to hand the money back.

GG is a true Arsenal legend to me and I’ll always love him for bringing back the pride to The Arsenal, but I was saddened with how his reign ended and worse when he lowered himself to sleep with the fucking flea infested rats down the road.

Should also say, I agree that GG had lost his way as an effective manager by 1993. We had become a mid table cup side and shit like McGolderick, Carter, Kiwomya etc were GG’s equivalent of Denilson, Benny, Song, Eboue etc....

[northbank123]

See what you're getting as but I would expect manager of The Arsenal (particularly under GG's reign) to have slightly more moral grounding and culpability than your average builder.

[QuartzGooner]

I am frustrated rather than disillusioned.
Numb rather than angry.
Felt worse under Graham 1995 because now the questions are obvious, under him it felt like we needed a bigger overhaul of playing staff - a detailed midfield clear out; now it feels more like we need a bit of a playing staff upgrade.

For me it all boils down to one thing:
We all know we cannot compete financially with Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea.
We all know there is a recession and the club are being careful not to overspend on players.
There are no guarantees more money will bring success, but why should we have to go into a season after season knowing we cannot win?
We fans are paying massive money.
Why not just spend that little bit extra and give us a fighting chance?

In practical terms; why not have kept on Benayoun instead of Arshavin and Chamakh?
Why not just bite the bullet and get a top striker?
Why not admit that Santos might be OK in midfield, but is no left back and get proper cover in that position?
Bring in better goalkeeping cover.

As for the defence, just hope Bould is given a fair shake of making things work.
Too soon to pass judgement on him.

[DB10GOONER]

I am frustrated rather than disillusioned.
Numb rather than angry.

For me it all boils down to one thing:
We all know we cannot compete financially with Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea.
We all know there is a recession and the club are being careful not to overspend on players.

With respect, I don't accept that at all, mate. The problem is the available money has and is being wasted on the wrong players. We do overspend - on wages for unproven and shit players!! What type of money has been pissed away on wages and pay-rises for muck like Eboue, Denilson, Benny, Almunia, Flappy, AA23, Song, Ramsey, etc etc etc.

We have money. We just spend it badly.

[QuartzGooner]

I am frustrated rather than disillusioned.
Numb rather than angry.

For me it all boils down to one thing:
We all know we cannot compete financially with Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea.
We all know there is a recession and the club are being careful not to overspend on players.

With respect, I don't accept that at all, mate. The problem is the available money has and is being wasted on the wrong players. We do overspend - on wages for unproven and shit players!! What type of money has been pissed away on wages and pay-rises for muck like Eboue, Denilson, Benny, Almunia, Flappy, AA23, Song, Ramsey, etc etc etc.

We have money. We just spend it badly.

Later on in my post I have made the same point you are making; that we have spent on players who turn out to be wrong.

We cannot compete like for like with Chelsea and the Manchester Clubs we simply are not in the same financial ballpark.

My post was just that we can and should spend a bit more, and compete, because in spite of our financial disadvantage we do have some good players.

I made the point on the AGM thread that we should change the wage structure too.

It has hampered us; we buy some players who look good in theory - Arshavin, Denilson, Chamakh all started well but faded, and Squillachi had a good CV when we signed him etc.
But when they under perform we cannot shift them - wages too high.

(Disagree on Benayoun, and for me jury still out on Ramsey).

[armchair]

I am frustrated rather than disillusioned.
Numb rather than angry.

I am frustrated, disillusioned, numb and angry.
Have been for quite some time

With respect, I don't accept that at all, mate..

With respect...? Theres a first!