New captain? Vermaelen to leave?

[GranadaJoe]

I think that some teams have gone for zonal marking in response to the generally accepted wrestling, grabbing, blocking off etc that teams employ at set pieces. You can see that it's well practised with teams running interference, blocking the man-markers etc.
It's also easier for thick players to understand but causes confusion when your players are marking zones where the ball isn't.
At a basic level, you need big, strong, sharp, aggresive players (TA6, Bould etc). We're lacking at the moment.

[DB10GOONER]

I think that some teams have gone for zonal marking in response to the generally accepted wrestling, grabbing, blocking off etc that teams employ at set pieces. You can see that it's well practised with teams running interference, blocking the man-markers etc.
It's also easier for thick players to understand but causes confusion when your players are marking zones where the ball isn't.
At a basic level, you need big, strong, sharp, aggresive players (TA6, Bould etc). We're lacking at the moment.

Are you saying zonal is easier for thick players to understand? Don't agree at all. Zonal is all about intelligent discipline and concentration, staying in your zone when the ball (and/or oppo player) comes near but not quite into your zone. The instinctive temptation is to go for the ball or run with the oppo player that is going for the ball. I would say zonal is by far harder for a thick player to understand or master than the simple "he's your man, mark him" concept of classic defending.

[GranadaJoe]

The 'thick player' comment was secondary (and a little tongue in cheek) to my first, and main, point.

However, surely it's easier to tell a player "When there's a corner, you stand there.". What could be simpler?

Easier than dealing with what happens when 'your man' stays outside the box, or stands on different defender, or is substituted.

Neither system is foolproof and historically, most teams have done a bit of both.

[DB10GOONER]

The 'thick player' comment was secondary (and a little tongue in cheek) to my first, and main, point.

However, surely it's easier to tell a player "When there's a corner, you stand there.". What could be simpler?

Easier than dealing with what happens when 'your man' stays outside the box, or stands on different defender, or is substituted.

Neither system is foolproof and historically, most teams have done a bit of both.

Oh, I get what you mean by easy to understand, but it's the execution that's the problem. Zonal goes against a player's natural instincts to either challenge for the ball or go to meet and challenge the oppo player.

Agree neither is foolproof, but would counter that man marking is by far the easier to execute and also more successful. Particularly when you have defenders of average ability and intelligence, which we do...

[Skooner]

The 'thick player' comment was secondary (and a little tongue in cheek) to my first, and main, point.

However, surely it's easier to tell a player "When there's a corner, you stand there.". What could be simpler?

Easier than dealing with what happens when 'your man' stays outside the box, or stands on different defender, or is substituted.

Neither system is foolproof and historically, most teams have done a bit of both.

Oh, I get what you mean by easy to understand, but it's the execution that's the problem. Zonal goes against a player's natural instincts to either challenge for the ball or go to meet and challenge the oppo player.

Agree neither is foolproof, but would counter that man marking is by far the easier to execute and also more successful. Particularly when you have defenders of average ability and intelligence, which we do...

I think that is the crux of the matter. The theory of zonal means it should be better than man marking as the biggest problem with man marking is you have to react to what the attacker is doing and are therefore likely to be half a yard behind all the time whereas zonal means you just have to concentrate on your own job. But footballers are so easily confused by what is their zone and when to go for the ball and when not to it isn't worth the hassle. A really good defensive coach with intelligent players at his disposal would probably get it to work but I am not sure such a thing exists at this point in time.

[DB10GOONER]

The 'thick player' comment was secondary (and a little tongue in cheek) to my first, and main, point.

However, surely it's easier to tell a player "When there's a corner, you stand there.". What could be simpler?

Easier than dealing with what happens when 'your man' stays outside the box, or stands on different defender, or is substituted.

Neither system is foolproof and historically, most teams have done a bit of both.

Oh, I get what you mean by easy to understand, but it's the execution that's the problem. Zonal goes against a player's natural instincts to either challenge for the ball or go to meet and challenge the oppo player.

Agree neither is foolproof, but would counter that man marking is by far the easier to execute and also more successful. Particularly when you have defenders of average ability and intelligence, which we do...

I think that is the crux of the matter. The theory of zonal means it should be better than man marking as the biggest problem with man marking is you have to react to what the attacker is doing and are therefore likely to be half a yard behind all the time whereas zonal means you just have to concentrate on your own job. But footballers are so easily confused by what is their zone and when to go for the ball and when not to it isn't worth the hassle. A really good defensive coach with intelligent players at his disposal would probably get it to work but I am not sure such a thing exists at this point in time.

And certainly not at The Arsenal at the moment...

[northbank123]

The 'thick player' comment was secondary (and a little tongue in cheek) to my first, and main, point.

However, surely it's easier to tell a player "When there's a corner, you stand there.". What could be simpler?

Easier than dealing with what happens when 'your man' stays outside the box, or stands on different defender, or is substituted.

Neither system is foolproof and historically, most teams have done a bit of both.

Oh, I get what you mean by easy to understand, but it's the execution that's the problem. Zonal goes against a player's natural instincts to either challenge for the ball or go to meet and challenge the oppo player.

Agree neither is foolproof, but would counter that man marking is by far the easier to execute and also more successful. Particularly when you have defenders of average ability and intelligence, which we do...

We're not good enough to execute either properly. Watch us defend a free-kick and it's laughable. We sit far too deep and therefore balls that should be sailing straight through for the keeper to catch are flying through a flock of players at head-height. We don't put anybody screening in front of the free-kick, hence why poor balls like Chelsea's second goal become very very difficult to defend. I personally have deep reservations about zonal marking because a) the opponent gets a run on you and more momentum, and b) they can overload certain areas and target the weakest defenders, but to be honest we'd ship in goals whatever system we use. Zonal marking takes great discipline and aerial ability to work and we don't have either of those qualities in abundance.

Watching us defend set pieces I struggle to believe that any of our team could ever have practised it at training before.

[SteveO 35]

40 mins in against Fulham and Koscielny is FUCKING AWFUL

Back to Monsieur Ligue Deux and no mistake

[franksav63]

Does anyone else think that TV5 should be stripped of the captaincy? I don't know what he offers to this role other than calling heads or tails, any other captain, worth his salt, would have bollocked, cajoled the team last night, TV5 offers nothing at all in this role, whilst his form has slightly improved, he is no leader, I would give the armband to Wilshere, at least he plays as if he cares.

I know that Wenger doesn't give any credence to the captaincy anymore, especially when you look at some of the *word censored* he has given the armband to, but our side resembles a rudderless, deflating dingy, sinking fast.

[SteveO 35]

I know that Wenger doesn't give any credence to the captaincy anymore,

Captaincy in this country is "overplayed" Frank. Surely you don't need a bloke that has worked in football for 30 years to tell you that? Anyway we have 11 captains and favour rotational leadership

[franksav63]

I know that Wenger doesn't give any credence to the captaincy anymore,

Captaincy in this country is "overplayed" Frank. Surely you don't need a bloke that has worked in football for 30 years to tell you that? Anyway we have 11 captains and favour rotational leadership

Yes, I remember the Wengerball quote from a few seasons ago, it just makes a mockery of the whole situation, take Southampton's goal yesterday, if that had happened on a Sunday morning, you'd definitely have the goalkeeper balling out several players, there was nothing yesterday, which just sums up the gutless nature of this team I'm afraid to say.

[SteveO 35]

I know that Wenger doesn't give any credence to the captaincy anymore,

Captaincy in this country is "overplayed" Frank. Surely you don't need a bloke that has worked in football for 30 years to tell you that? Anyway we have 11 captains and favour rotational leadership

Yes, I remember the Wengerball quote from a few seasons ago, it just makes a mockery of the whole situation, take Southampton's goal yesterday, if that had happened on a Sunday morning, you'd definitely have the goalkeeper balling out several players, there was nothing yesterday, which just sums up the gutless nature of this team I'm afraid to say.

The problem with taking it away from TV5 is who gets it. In my opinion Arteta is the only alternative but I don't see him as the Adams/Vieira type - more a guy who leads by example. Not worth changing it in my view as we don't have any better options (a bit like Wenger's transfer policy)

[N1Goon]

A song for Vermaelen;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlLWFa1b1Bc

[QuartzGooner]

Got a feeling Vermaelen may be sold this summer.
Anyone agree?

[defleppardisking]

Ya got this feeling too. Feel that sagna will be sold too