An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[Steve_I]

Question for you Steve_I..........if a new manager was appointed in the morning and he hadnt won a trophy in the next 5 years would you support the idea of keeping him in the job ? If that new manager took over the team and 5 years later had a poorer squad than the one he inherited then would you want to keep him in the job ?

I don't think you can necessarily seperate the years Arsene hasn't managed a trophy winning team from the years he has...

...your question suggests you can. In answer to your questions , NO I would not support the idea of keeping him in a job in either scenario as you have given him no pedigree of any note other than he is a manager.

I maintain that Arsene is an excellent manager and circumstances, not just within and directly affecting the club but in terms of other teams around us , have conspired to help find, in part, ourselves in the position we are currently in.

If we're looking at trophies in recent times specifically as 'making the man(ager)' then would anyone swap Arsene for Di Matteo? Obv not me, but anyone else...? one assumes there's many that would be happy given his trophy to minutes in management ratio... it appears to be what matters to many

[highburyJD]

Great point !
(I think Steves the rosetinter cavalry)

[augie]

Question for you Steve_I..........if a new manager was appointed in the morning and he hadnt won a trophy in the next 5 years would you support the idea of keeping him in the job ? If that new manager took over the team and 5 years later had a poorer squad than the one he inherited then would you want to keep him in the job ?

I don't think you can necessarily seperate the years Arsene hasn't managed a trophy winning team from the years he has...

...your question suggests you can. In answer to your questions , NO I would not support the idea of keeping him in a job in either scenario as you have given him no pedigree of any note other than he is a manager.

I maintain that Arsene is an excellent manager and circumstances, not just within and directly affecting the club but in terms of other teams around us , have conspired to help find, in part, ourselves in the position we are currently in.

If we're looking at trophies in recent times specifically as 'making the man(ager)' then would anyone swap Arsene for Di Matteo? Obv not me, but anyone else...? one assumes there's many that would be happy given his trophy to minutes in management ratio... it appears to be what matters to many

Eh ?? How can you not look at the whole tenure of a manager when deciding his fate ? If you look at the whole of his time spent at our club (not just the first 8 years) then you will see a manager and club in decline and there surely can be no doubting that ? I'm sorry but I for one am not prepared to keep a manager based on what he did almost a decade ago - we didnt keep players like TA6 or the great Dennis Bergkamp beyond the time when they were useful to the club so why should a manager be treated any differently ?


Fact is that when wenger took over he inherited a squad containing the legendary back 5 plus Bergkamp, merse and wrighty....if he left in the morning he would leave a squad with maybe 3 quality players (wilshire,arteta and cazorla) so very hard for anyone to argue that the quality he has accumulated is significantly weaker than when he took over. I dont bother comparing the current squad with the invinceables cos tbf it is an unfair comparison to make but to compare them to wenger's inherited squad is reasonable imo. The old complaints about a lack of resources doesnt stand up when you consider the amount of money he wasted on shite like gervinho and the massive wages given out to numerous players who quite frankly when absolute shite

If anybody can honestly stand up and tell me that they believe that we can challenge for the big trophies again under wenger then I would suggest that they are either lying or it is time to call for the men in white coats to take them away. Successive captains have shown that they no longer believe in wenger and these are guys that worked with him everyday so maybe it is time to forget the past and move on and the first step in that direction is to change things at the top and bring in a new manager with fresh impetus

[DB10GOONER]

Question for you Steve_I..........if a new manager was appointed in the morning and he hadnt won a trophy in the next 5 years would you support the idea of keeping him in the job ? If that new manager took over the team and 5 years later had a poorer squad than the one he inherited then would you want to keep him in the job ?

I don't think you can necessarily seperate the years Arsene hasn't managed a trophy winning team from the years he has...

...your question suggests you can. In answer to your questions , NO I would not support the idea of keeping him in a job in either scenario as you have given him no pedigree of any note other than he is a manager.

I maintain that Arsene is an excellent manager and circumstances, not just within and directly affecting the club but in terms of other teams around us , have conspired to help find, in part, ourselves in the position we are currently in.

If we're looking at trophies in recent times specifically as 'making the man(ager)' then would anyone swap Arsene for Di Matteo? Obv not me, but anyone else...? one assumes there's many that would be happy given his trophy to minutes in management ratio... it appears to be what matters to many

Eh ?? How can you not look at the whole tenure of a manager when deciding his fate ? If you look at the whole of his time spent at our club (not just the first 8 years) then you will see a manager and club in decline and there surely can be no doubting that ? I'm sorry but I for one am not prepared to keep a manager based on what he did almost a decade ago - we didnt keep players like TA6 or the great Dennis Bergkamp beyond the time when they were useful to the club so why should a manager be treated any differently ?


Fact is that when wenger took over he inherited a squad containing the legendary back 5 plus Bergkamp, merse and wrighty....if he left in the morning he would leave a squad with maybe 3 quality players (wilshire,arteta and cazorla) so very hard for anyone to argue that the quality he has accumulated is significantly weaker than when he took over. I dont bother comparing the current squad with the invinceables cos tbf it is an unfair comparison to make but to compare them to wenger's inherited squad is reasonable imo. The old complaints about a lack of resources doesnt stand up when you consider the amount of money he wasted on shite like gervinho and the massive wages given out to numerous players who quite frankly when absolute shite

If anybody can honestly stand up and tell me that they believe that we can challenge for the big trophies again under wenger then I would suggest that they are either lying or it is time to call for the men in white coats to take them away. Successive captains have shown that they no longer believe in wenger and these are guys that worked with him everyday so maybe it is time to forget the past and move on and the first step in that direction is to change things at the top and bring in a new manager with fresh impetus

Steve_I, this is one of the main problems when Arsene supporters come on here; selective use of facts and stats. I agree 100% with augie - you MUST look at the whole tenure of a manager. By doing this it is very obvious that not only Wenger's ability as a manager, but also the club's standing in PL and CL football, is (and has been for 7 years) on the decline.

To maintain that he is still a successful manager because he won 7 trophies in the first 9 years, but nothing in the last 7 years, is madness. And then to call that a success rate of 2 and a bit trophies a season is just, to be honest, disingenuous, mate - it implies steady, continual and regular success, which the actual facts show is just not true.

[highburyJD]

very hard for anyone to argue that the quality he has accumulated is significantly weaker than when he took over.

I'll try anyway,
We had 10 quality players (1-10, 14 instead of 4) but it was perceived as ageing quality.
With that famous 5 we had still come low mid table the season before new signings Platt and Bergkamp dragged us into Europe on the last day (anyone remember Wrighty celebrating out the dressing room window?). We were Platt's last paycheque, back from SerieA. At that time I don't think anybody really rated Parlour ahead of Hughes or Selley. Our defence was a great unit, but Nige and Bouldy never really got a look in for England.
No. Position Player
1 GK David Seaman
2 DF Lee Dixon
3 DF Nigel Winterburn
*4 MF Patrick Vieira - Wenger signing
5 DF Steve Bould
6 DF Tony Adams
7 MF David Platt
8 FW Ian Wright
9 FW Paul Merson
10 FW Dennis Bergkamp
*11 FW Nicolas Anelka - Wenger signing
13 GK Vince Bartram
14 DF Martin Keown
No. Position Player
15 MF Ray Parlour
*19 DF Remi Garde
19 FW Chris Kiwomya
22 MF Ian Selley
24 GK John Lukic
25 DF Scott Marshall
26 GK Lee Harper
27 MF Paul Shaw
28 MF Stephen Hughes
29 MF Adrian Clarke
30 DF Gavin McGowan
31 DF Matty Rose
32 FW Isaiah Rankin

Glanced at our first team squad now - 3 keepers and 9 defenders, only Mannone hasn't been capped.
Diaby is a key player for France, Jack arguably THE key player for England.
Rosicky, Rambo and Arshavin have captained their countries. IMO our key player Tets is uncapped, as are LeCoq and Frimpong. Cazorla is first sub for the best National team ever.

I see our current strike force as weak but all 6 are NT regulars.
Obviously none are near the level of Wrighty and Dennis.

The defence Wenger inherited, it was generally agreed had to be totally rebuilt. Rioch had played a season of back 5 arguably to protect them. Keeping, remoulding and extending their careers was one of Wenger's biggest achievements.

Our current midfield is stronger (especially considering Merse was off the rails and Romford Pele was just an engine).

Strikeforce '96 wins by a country mile, 100 leagues and 2 geniuses.

[DB10GOONER]

Mate, did you ever actually watch Romford Pele play?

He certainly had an engine, but he was not "just" an engine. He offered much more than that and is one of our most underrated players of all time.

[highburyJD]

Great player, one of my favourites. Everybody expected him out the door when Wenger arrived, down a division or to a small Prem club.

[Eboue-Why?]

It's ok comparing squads but part of the problem is whether the manager can motivate the squad anymore and I would question that now. What I don't want to see is a manager spending 80 mins berating the 4th official, I want him geeing up his team and trying to outwit the other manager tactically.

[highburyJD]

People only mention 4th official cos we're dropping points
Wengers tactic is keep the ball, that's pretty much it.

[donaldo]

I maintain that Arsene is an excellent manager and circumstances, not just within and directly affecting the club but in terms of other teams around us , have conspired to help find, in part, ourselves in the position we are currently in.

Would an excellent manager between 2007-11 have Almunia and Flappy as our number 1 and 2 keepers when Given and Friedel were available

Would an excellent manager keep Eboue Djourou Denilson Bendtner Almunia and Flappy for so long at the club.Then giving Denilson Bendtner and Almunia such massive wages that no one will buy them.People forget Denilson and Bendtner are still Arsenal players

Would an excellent manager give contracts to sicknotes like Diaby and Rosicky? Just like the boys from Coolmore buying a 3 legged horse

Would an excellent manager pay money for dross like Santos Squillaci Chamakh Park Ramsey and Gervinho?

Anyone who thinks Wenger post 2005 has done an excellent job must be living in a cave

[DB10GOONER]

People only mention 4th official cos we're dropping points

No JD, they don’t.

They keep mentioning it because it is embarrassing.

If he did it once or twice a game like most other managers then fair enough, but he spends huge amounts of every game ranting like a mad bitch at the 4th Official as if it were his fault we cannot play tippy tappy to the same level as The Whores, or his fault that we have so many poor and average players on huge money, or his fault our pisswank attempt at zonal marking isn’t working, or his fault that other teams don’t turn up and (gasp! the impudence! ) play to OUR strengths so we can beat them 4-0... etc... etc... etc...

[arseofacrow]

Question for you Steve_I..........if a new manager was appointed in the morning and he hadnt won a trophy in the next 5 years would you support the idea of keeping him in the job ? If that new manager took over the team and 5 years later had a poorer squad than the one he inherited then would you want to keep him in the job ?

I don't think you can necessarily seperate the years Arsene hasn't managed a trophy winning team from the years he has...

...your question suggests you can. In answer to your questions , NO I would not support the idea of keeping him in a job in either scenario as you have given him no pedigree of any note other than he is a manager.

I maintain that Arsene is an excellent manager and circumstances, not just within and directly affecting the club but in terms of other teams around us , have conspired to help find, in part, ourselves in the position we are currently in.

If we're looking at trophies in recent times specifically as 'making the man(ager)' then would anyone swap Arsene for Di Matteo? Obv not me, but anyone else...? one assumes there's many that would be happy given his trophy to minutes in management ratio... it appears to be what matters to many

Are those "special circumstances"?

[Clash]

It’s the decent thing to do to respect the opinions of others. But I am still waiting to hear a good argument or any valid reasons as to why Wenger should still be our manager. The kind of commets I see are stuff like these:


‘’Who would we get to replace him?’’
(inferring there is no better option out there which is ignoring the numerous other up and coming managers out there whose fresh ideas and modern thinking are surely preferable to a stubborn old man in his 60s who won’t delegate or adapt).

‘’Wenger deserves respect’’
(Respect is earned and can be lost. Wenger most definitely earned it but has done too many things since then to lose it. I think Wenger deserves to be given as much respect as he shows to the fans … so that would be none then)

‘’Wenger has stayed loyal to us so we should stay loyal to him’’
(Nonsense. I suspect he probably didn’t ever really have the courage to go and take a job at the likes of Real Madrid because the expectation would be too much for him there. Why would he go from a job where he is paid a fortune by Arsenal to basically do what he likes and is under so little pressure to succeed? He has been allowed to use our club as a vehicle for his long held personal dream of growing his own team, his way. That he stayed isn’t down to loyalty. Wenger is loyal to one thing only - himself).

‘’If Wenger goes, all our best players would go too’’
(something that has happened regardless and is an argument that elevates Wenger to a status he doesn’t merit while at the same time belittling the true status of a great football club)

‘’Without Arsene, there is no Arsenal’’
(an even more ridiculous version of the one above. No proper Arsenal fan would ever say something like this)

‘’Wenger has worked miracles, who else could have kept a club at the top after moving to a new stadium’’
(Top 4 for a club with our huge resources is not a miracle, it is actually pretty ordinary. Oh and Juventus won the title unbeaten and went 49 games unbeaten after moving to a new stadium)

‘’We cant be expected to compete with clubs with bigger resources’’
(We dropped something like 25 points last season against teams that finished in the lower half of the table and finished 19 points behind the champions. The wealth the likes of City and Chelsea have cannot influence what we do against teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan and QPR etc… how many of those points dropped were down to poor tactics, lack of motivation and individual errors by players and management? )

‘’Wenger’s hands have been tied’’
(no they haven’t, he is given £140m+ a year to spend on wages alone. He has actually spent a lot of money on transfers, just not as much as he has recouped. He isn’t denied money , he wastes money)

‘’We don’t want to go back to boring football’’
(watch our games and try denying that we already have)

‘’Without Wenger we’d struggle to get top 4’’
(no proof if this, the opposite might equally be true. We might thrive under a new manager. And anyway what’s the big deal about top 4 now from a non-financial point of view? It just means boring games and more expense for fans, along with still not keeping our best players and still not attracting top quality! Nothing to get excited about)

‘’Look at our net spend, Wenger has overachieved’’
(It is his choice not to spend. His lack of courage in the transfer market is holding us back. If he spent more so there was no profit, lets see how he can overachieve then. Wenger is a coward if he is hiding behind his net spending record when it’s not something that has been forced on him)

‘’Wenger put our club on the map’’
(Herbert Chapman did that. As far as the US and Asia is concerned that is mostly because the game has gone global in the last 15 years due to technological advances. Wenger can’t take credit for that as much as I’m sure some would like us to believe).

‘’Wenger was a revolutionary and changed English football’
(He probably did but heavy emphasis there on ‘was’. His ideas are not new ones anymore. He is yesterday’s man and that is a reason to replace him not keep him. He was good but in hindsight should have gone at the same time he began to break his last great side up)

Wenger is leaving a legacy for the next manager and all future managers’
(On the playing side, the legacy Wenger inherited from Graham was far better than what he is leaving behind. Wenger wouldn’t have won anything without the mentality instilled. Wenger himself has created a culture of losing and a breed of complacency. We are now a club players use as a stepping stone to bigger and better things)

‘’Be careful what you wish for’’
(this has now one of those overused trendy phrases. In our case it simply shows a fear of the unknown. As we all know, with this kind of thinking we’d never have appointed Wenger in the first place)

‘’Wenger isn’t just living off past glories, he’s still a top manager’’
(so if a new manager took over in the summer of 2006 and did what Wenger has done down to the most exact detail, he’d be considered a success and would be as popular as Wenger? No chance! Of course he is living off past glories)

‘’He’s had success in the past, he can do it again’’
(he hasn’t had any success doing things the way he does them at the moment. His success came from different methods, a different style of play and most simple of all - because he had much better players than he does now. A number of them ones he inherited. His style of management cannot win anything without a team full of experienced world class players - yet he refuses to see this or to try and build a team like that)

‘’Without Wenger there would be no Emirates stadium’’
(something to resent him for rather than praise him for, just my opinion of course)

‘’You can’t criticise Wenger after everything he’s done’’
(an argument which conveniently ignores all the damage he has done and is still doing. And what about what Arsenal have done for Wenger? He was virtually unknown before we gambled on him and plucked him from the J-League. Thanks to Arsenal and Arsenal fans, Wenger is now a very rich, very famous and very influential man. Yet we’re told we are being ungrateful if we question him to much. Where is his gratitude to us?)

‘’Wenger is our most successful manager’’
(Questionable. No European trophy won and he has not won anything that the club hadn’t already won before under another manager. In terms of total trophies won he has the most but he is also the longest serving manager by some distance. Also he now has the dubious record for the longest spell without a trophy for any one individual manager in the clubs history. Does that mean if he is the best, he is also the worst?)



So then … unless I’ve missed them all out, there is not any reason whatsoever to keep hold of Wenger.

All the arguments to support him or for sticking with him are based on a combination of things: Believing you have a sense of duty to show him everlasting gratitude no matter what he does ... a childlike faith in everything he does or says ... an ability to ignore undisputable facts that expose his many faults … manipulating statistics to show him in a good light ... having a selective memory ... possessing delusional hope for a future that never comes ... and a fear of trying something new.

I realise I am not saying anything that hasn’t been said numerous times already. That in itself is another reason not to keep hold of Wenger. He doesnt give us anything new to discuss.

[skizz_b]

part of the problem is whether the manager can motivate the squad anymore and I would question that now.

we will see whether he can motivate his players come saturday...there doesnt appear to be much drive in them, hasn't been for some time.

on a tangent, everyone knows a high pressing game is our best tactic but we see that once a year

[DB10GOONER]

It’s the decent thing to do to respect the opinions of others. But I am still waiting to hear a good argument or any valid reasons as to why Wenger should still be our manager. The kind of commets I see are stuff like these:


‘’Who would we get to replace him?’’
(inferring there is no better option out there which is ignoring the numerous other up and coming managers out there whose fresh ideas and modern thinking are surely preferable to a stubborn old man in his 60s who won’t delegate or adapt).

‘’Wenger deserves respect’’
(Respect is earned and can be lost. Wenger most definitely earned it but has done too many things since then to lose it. I think Wenger deserves to be given as much respect as he shows to the fans … so that would be none then)

‘’Wenger has stayed loyal to us so we should stay loyal to him’’
(Nonsense. I suspect he probably didn’t ever really have the courage to go and take a job at the likes of Real Madrid because the expectation would be too much for him there. Why would he go from a job where he is paid a fortune by Arsenal to basically do what he likes and is under so little pressure to succeed? He has been allowed to use our club as a vehicle for his long held personal dream of growing his own team, his way. That he stayed isn’t down to loyalty. Wenger is loyal to one thing only - himself).

‘’If Wenger goes, all our best players would go too’’
(something that has happened regardless and is an argument that elevates Wenger to a status he doesn’t merit while at the same time belittling the true status of a great football club)

‘’Without Arsene, there is no Arsenal’’
(an even more ridiculous version of the one above. No proper Arsenal fan would ever say something like this)

‘’Wenger has worked miracles, who else could have kept a club at the top after moving to a new stadium’’
(Top 4 for a club with our huge resources is not a miracle, it is actually pretty ordinary. Oh and Juventus won the title unbeaten and went 49 games unbeaten after moving to a new stadium)

‘’We cant be expected to compete with clubs with bigger resources’’
(We dropped something like 25 points last season against teams that finished in the lower half of the table and finished 19 points behind the champions. The wealth the likes of City and Chelsea have cannot influence what we do against teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan and QPR etc… how many of those points dropped were down to poor tactics, lack of motivation and individual errors by players and management? )

‘’Wenger’s hands have been tied’’
(no they haven’t, he is given £140m+ a year to spend on wages alone. He has actually spent a lot of money on transfers, just not as much as he has recouped. He isn’t denied money , he wastes money)

‘’We don’t want to go back to boring football’’
(watch our games and try denying that we already have)

‘’Without Wenger we’d struggle to get top 4’’
(no proof if this, the opposite might equally be true. We might thrive under a new manager. And anyway what’s the big deal about top 4 now from a non-financial point of view? It just means boring games and more expense for fans, along with still not keeping our best players and still not attracting top quality! Nothing to get excited about)

‘’Look at our net spend, Wenger has overachieved’’
(It is his choice not to spend. His lack of courage in the transfer market is holding us back. If he spent more so there was no profit, lets see how he can overachieve then. Wenger is a coward if he is hiding behind his net spending record when it’s not something that has been forced on him)

‘’Wenger put our club on the map’’
(Herbert Chapman did that. As far as the US and Asia is concerned that is mostly because the game has gone global in the last 15 years due to technological advances. Wenger can’t take credit for that as much as I’m sure some would like us to believe).

‘’Wenger was a revolutionary and changed English football’
(He probably did but heavy emphasis there on ‘was’. His ideas are not new ones anymore. He is yesterday’s man and that is a reason to replace him not keep him. He was good but in hindsight should have gone at the same time he began to break his last great side up)

Wenger is leaving a legacy for the next manager and all future managers’
(On the playing side, the legacy Wenger inherited from Graham was far better than what he is leaving behind. Wenger wouldn’t have won anything without the mentality instilled. Wenger himself has created a culture of losing and a breed of complacency. We are now a club players use as a stepping stone to bigger and better things)

‘’Be careful what you wish for’’
(this has now one of those overused trendy phrases. In our case it simply shows a fear of the unknown. As we all know, with this kind of thinking we’d never have appointed Wenger in the first place)

‘’Wenger isn’t just living off past glories, he’s still a top manager’’
(so if a new manager took over in the summer of 2006 and did what Wenger has done down to the most exact detail, he’d be considered a success and would be as popular as Wenger? No chance! Of course he is living off past glories)

‘’He’s had success in the past, he can do it again’’
(he hasn’t had any success doing things the way he does them at the moment. His success came from different methods, a different style of play and most simple of all - because he had much better players than he does now. A number of them ones he inherited. His style of management cannot win anything without a team full of experienced world class players - yet he refuses to see this or to try and build a team like that)

‘’Without Wenger there would be no Emirates stadium’’
(something to resent him for rather than praise him for, just my opinion of course)

‘’You can’t criticise Wenger after everything he’s done’’
(an argument which conveniently ignores all the damage he has done and is still doing. And what about what Arsenal have done for Wenger? He was virtually unknown before we gambled on him and plucked him from the J-League. Thanks to Arsenal and Arsenal fans, Wenger is now a very rich, very famous and very influential man. Yet we’re told we are being ungrateful if we question him to much. Where is his gratitude to us?)

‘’Wenger is our most successful manager’’
(Questionable. No European trophy won and he has not won anything that the club hadn’t already won before under another manager. In terms of total trophies won he has the most but he is also the longest serving manager by some distance. Also he now has the dubious record for the longest spell without a trophy for any one individual manager in the clubs history. Does that mean if he is the best, he is also the worst?)



So then … unless I’ve missed them all out, there is not any reason whatsoever to keep hold of Wenger.

All the arguments to support him or for sticking with him are based on a combination of things: Believing you have a sense of duty to show him everlasting gratitude no matter what he does ... a childlike faith in everything he does or says ... an ability to ignore undisputable facts that expose his many faults … manipulating statistics to show him in a good light ... having a selective memory ... possessing delusional hope for a future that never comes ... and a fear of trying something new.

I realise I am not saying anything that hasn’t been said numerous times already. That in itself is another reason not to keep hold of Wenger. He doesnt give us anything new to discuss.

^^This x infinity.

Post of the year, mate. Possibly of the decade! As you say, nothing new in it, but I’ve never read all of those arguments put together so clearly and succinctly in one place before. Fantastic post.