An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[gunner_ace]

It’s the decent thing to do to respect the opinions of others. But I am still waiting to hear a good argument or any valid reasons as to why Wenger should still be our manager. The kind of commets I see are stuff like these:


‘’Who would we get to replace him?’’
(inferring there is no better option out there which is ignoring the numerous other up and coming managers out there whose fresh ideas and modern thinking are surely preferable to a stubborn old man in his 60s who won’t delegate or adapt).

‘’Wenger deserves respect’’
(Respect is earned and can be lost. Wenger most definitely earned it but has done too many things since then to lose it. I think Wenger deserves to be given as much respect as he shows to the fans … so that would be none then)

‘’Wenger has stayed loyal to us so we should stay loyal to him’’
(Nonsense. I suspect he probably didn’t ever really have the courage to go and take a job at the likes of Real Madrid because the expectation would be too much for him there. Why would he go from a job where he is paid a fortune by Arsenal to basically do what he likes and is under so little pressure to succeed? He has been allowed to use our club as a vehicle for his long held personal dream of growing his own team, his way. That he stayed isn’t down to loyalty. Wenger is loyal to one thing only - himself).

‘’If Wenger goes, all our best players would go too’’
(something that has happened regardless and is an argument that elevates Wenger to a status he doesn’t merit while at the same time belittling the true status of a great football club)

‘’Without Arsene, there is no Arsenal’’
(an even more ridiculous version of the one above. No proper Arsenal fan would ever say something like this)

‘’Wenger has worked miracles, who else could have kept a club at the top after moving to a new stadium’’
(Top 4 for a club with our huge resources is not a miracle, it is actually pretty ordinary. Oh and Juventus won the title unbeaten and went 49 games unbeaten after moving to a new stadium)

‘’We cant be expected to compete with clubs with bigger resources’’
(We dropped something like 25 points last season against teams that finished in the lower half of the table and finished 19 points behind the champions. The wealth the likes of City and Chelsea have cannot influence what we do against teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan and QPR etc… how many of those points dropped were down to poor tactics, lack of motivation and individual errors by players and management? )

‘’Wenger’s hands have been tied’’
(no they haven’t, he is given £140m+ a year to spend on wages alone. He has actually spent a lot of money on transfers, just not as much as he has recouped. He isn’t denied money , he wastes money)

‘’We don’t want to go back to boring football’’
(watch our games and try denying that we already have)

‘’Without Wenger we’d struggle to get top 4’’
(no proof if this, the opposite might equally be true. We might thrive under a new manager. And anyway what’s the big deal about top 4 now from a non-financial point of view? It just means boring games and more expense for fans, along with still not keeping our best players and still not attracting top quality! Nothing to get excited about)

‘’Look at our net spend, Wenger has overachieved’’
(It is his choice not to spend. His lack of courage in the transfer market is holding us back. If he spent more so there was no profit, lets see how he can overachieve then. Wenger is a coward if he is hiding behind his net spending record when it’s not something that has been forced on him)

‘’Wenger put our club on the map’’
(Herbert Chapman did that. As far as the US and Asia is concerned that is mostly because the game has gone global in the last 15 years due to technological advances. Wenger can’t take credit for that as much as I’m sure some would like us to believe).

‘’Wenger was a revolutionary and changed English football’
(He probably did but heavy emphasis there on ‘was’. His ideas are not new ones anymore. He is yesterday’s man and that is a reason to replace him not keep him. He was good but in hindsight should have gone at the same time he began to break his last great side up)

Wenger is leaving a legacy for the next manager and all future managers’
(On the playing side, the legacy Wenger inherited from Graham was far better than what he is leaving behind. Wenger wouldn’t have won anything without the mentality instilled. Wenger himself has created a culture of losing and a breed of complacency. We are now a club players use as a stepping stone to bigger and better things)

‘’Be careful what you wish for’’
(this has now one of those overused trendy phrases. In our case it simply shows a fear of the unknown. As we all know, with this kind of thinking we’d never have appointed Wenger in the first place)

‘’Wenger isn’t just living off past glories, he’s still a top manager’’
(so if a new manager took over in the summer of 2006 and did what Wenger has done down to the most exact detail, he’d be considered a success and would be as popular as Wenger? No chance! Of course he is living off past glories)

‘’He’s had success in the past, he can do it again’’
(he hasn’t had any success doing things the way he does them at the moment. His success came from different methods, a different style of play and most simple of all - because he had much better players than he does now. A number of them ones he inherited. His style of management cannot win anything without a team full of experienced world class players - yet he refuses to see this or to try and build a team like that)

‘’Without Wenger there would be no Emirates stadium’’
(something to resent him for rather than praise him for, just my opinion of course)

‘’You can’t criticise Wenger after everything he’s done’’
(an argument which conveniently ignores all the damage he has done and is still doing. And what about what Arsenal have done for Wenger? He was virtually unknown before we gambled on him and plucked him from the J-League. Thanks to Arsenal and Arsenal fans, Wenger is now a very rich, very famous and very influential man. Yet we’re told we are being ungrateful if we question him to much. Where is his gratitude to us?)

‘’Wenger is our most successful manager’’
(Questionable. No European trophy won and he has not won anything that the club hadn’t already won before under another manager. In terms of total trophies won he has the most but he is also the longest serving manager by some distance. Also he now has the dubious record for the longest spell without a trophy for any one individual manager in the clubs history. Does that mean if he is the best, he is also the worst?)



So then … unless I’ve missed them all out, there is not any reason whatsoever to keep hold of Wenger.

All the arguments to support him or for sticking with him are based on a combination of things: Believing you have a sense of duty to show him everlasting gratitude no matter what he does ... a childlike faith in everything he does or says ... an ability to ignore undisputable facts that expose his many faults … manipulating statistics to show him in a good light ... having a selective memory ... possessing delusional hope for a future that never comes ... and a fear of trying something new.

I realise I am not saying anything that hasn’t been said numerous times already. That in itself is another reason not to keep hold of Wenger. He doesnt give us anything new to discuss.

^^This x infinity.

Post of the year, mate. Possibly of the decade! As you say, nothing new in it, but I’ve never read all of those arguments put together so clearly and succinctly in one place before. Fantastic post.

2nd that. This post x 100000000000. Should be required reading for every AKB out there.

Even though you nailed every point on the head, the AKB’s always have an answer.

I remember having quite a likely chat with one at the pub last month. It went something like this.

AKB: If you want Wenger to go then who would replace him?
Me: I hear Pep Guardiola is looking for a job, and he’s a pretty decent manager
AKB: He’s rubbish (yes they seriously said that) and got lucky with inheriting one of the greatest teams ever. Wouldn’t be able to reproduce at Arsenal.
Me: Ok what about Klopp then. Has built that Dortmund team up for himself.
AKB: The bundasleague is totally different to the EPL, no man citehs or chavs billionaires. He wouldn’t cut it in our league.
Me: Ok then, David Moyes, can do it in our league, built his own relatively successful teams by Evertons standards on a shoestring budget and has generally worked miracles at EFC. He is definitely ready for a top job now.
AKB: He wouldn’t be able to attract top players to Arsenal like Wenger can
Me: Fuck-off.

[augie]

[DarylAFC]

The most annyoing arguement there is surely must be the "We'll go back to boring foobll without Wenger". The boring football where we'd win 1-0 and defend for our lives... but won things? Nothing boring about getting pissed after winning a cup

Glanced at our first team squad now - 3 keepers and 9 defenders, only Mannone hasn't been capped.
Diaby is a key player for France, Jack arguably THE key player for England.
Rosicky, Rambo and Arshavin have captained their countries. IMO our key player Tets is uncapped, as are LeCoq and Frimpong. Cazorla is first sub for the best National team ever.

Park is a regular, former captain of his national side so is he a quality signing?

[highburyJD]

Some interesting posts on this, deconstructing arguments you make on behalf of others is of course more difficult than when they are allowed to make the arguments themselves.

I'm on my mobile, any reply to this long post would be necessarily long
diff being long anti posts get cheerleaded, long pro replies get suicide smilies...

I'll try when in front of the computer.

[DB10GOONER]

Some interesting posts on this, deconstructing arguments you make on behalf of others is of course more difficult than when they are allowed to make the arguments themselves.

I'm on my mobile, any reply to this long post would be necessarily long
diff being long anti posts get cheerleaded, long pro replies get suicide smilies...

I'll try when in front of the computer.

Yeah, but he's not just "deconstructing arguments (he's made) on behalf of others" though is he? He's rebutting arguments/comments made by AKB's on a regular basis in pubs, in the stadium, on forums, on blogs, on TV - you name it! These actually are the arguments they put forward.

TBH, your expected upcoming point by point breakdown of his post will be the only time I've ever looked forward to reading one of your point by point missives, JD!

[highburyJD]

Yeah, but he's not just "deconstructing arguments (he's made) on behalf of others" though is he? He's rebutting arguments/comments made by AKB's on a regular basis in pubs, in the stadium, on forums, on blogs, on TV - you name it! These actually are the arguments they put forward.

er no, they're not actually put forward by 'AKB's'.
Here they're actually put forward by Clash, mostly quite fairly
but of course people who actually hold views, one would hope could express them more forcefully.
I agree with some (many) of Clash's points - I just come to a different conclusion

[DB10GOONER]

Yeah, but he's not just "deconstructing arguments (he's made) on behalf of others" though is he? He's rebutting arguments/comments made by AKB's on a regular basis in pubs, in the stadium, on forums, on blogs, on TV - you name it! These actually are the arguments they put forward.

er no, they're not actually put forward by 'AKB's'.
Here they're actually put forward by Clash, mostly quite fairly
but of course people who actually hold views, one would hope could express them more forcefully.
I agree with some (many) of Clash's points - I just come to a different conclusion

Er yeah, they are actually statements made by AKB's. Regularly. Lay off the pedantics.

[highburyJD]

as I often warn before starting, sorry for my length
1-

‘’Who would we get to replace him?’’

is of course a generally silly argument. To some extent I agree with it mid-season, one doesn't necessarily want a manager ready to jump ship mid-project and shaft his employer. But of course there are many good managers out there
2-

‘’Wenger deserves respect’’

I 100% agree that Wenger deserves respect. I've become annoyed on here by some of the things posted about him. Respect does not equal a job for life. The little "no respect deserved" addendum is , I think, silly. But so is the idea that respect Wenger means considering no others.
3-

‘’Wenger has stayed loyal to us so we should stay loyal to him’’

again I disagree with the slightly facile Wenger only cares about himself additions. Don't see a 'loyalty' argument as distinct from the previous 'respect' one.

I think point 1 is made either through ignorance, or through an attempt to say Wenger is one of the very best managers.
IMO 2 and 3 are points brought up to defend the manager from abuse WHILST discussing his future (and emotive subject) as opposed to reasons for him to stay on.

4-

‘’If Wenger goes, all our best players would go too’’

historically may have been the case. During the stadium move we've run a player sales based model. An out of date argument, could have been true in the early Noughties. Redundant now, I haven't heard anyone make that point for years.

5-

‘’Without Arsene, there is no Arsenal’’

Straw man BS - never heard any Gooner say this ever

6-

‘’Wenger has worked miracles, who else could have kept a club at the top after moving to a new stadium’’

This is the first argument posed that gets close to one I've even heard TBH.
You then break it down into two points:

(Top 4 for a club with our huge resources is not a miracle, it is actually pretty ordinary. Oh and Juventus won the title unbeaten and went 49 games unbeaten after moving to a new stadium)

disagree on both.
Juve is a meaningless comparison. I believe Turin council effectively GAVE deli alpi to them to build on (it's all pretty opaque) then lease on a bunch of other land (250m2) for €1M, peanuts. Building costs in Torino are miniscule compared to London. The power of the Agnelli's in Turin is of a whole different level, politically they can do what they want. Wiki says the stadium cost about £90M, we prob spent than on planning and consultants.

Also our 'huge' resources? Footballing resources are split between transfer fees and wages. On wages we're around top 4, on fees maybe top 20. Its one pot. We have a big wage bill to a) maximise quality of youth players b) keep on the young or mid-tier players we have made into stars - a & b enables us to recoup substantial funds through transfer fees. Our borderline top 4 wage bill is/was unsustainable without making sales and improving where we stand net on transfer fees. Arguably our 'natural' wage bill level is even lower. Presumably the wage bill will have dropped when our next accounts are released.
7-

‘’We cant be expected to compete with clubs with bigger resources’’

'can't be expected' I totally disagree with - we have 'competed'. During our barren trophyless blip we've competed on several occasions but just fallen short. Sometimes bad luck, sometimes other reasons. Montpellier and Dortmund won leagues against teams with vastly superior budgets. That said I don't think its reasonable to fire a manager who 'competes' with better resourced opponents then misses out.
Your sub-paragraph:

(We dropped something like 25 points last season against teams that finished in the lower half of the table and finished 19 points behind the champions. The wealth the likes of City and Chelsea have cannot influence what we do against teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan and QPR etc… how many of those points dropped were down to poor tactics, lack of motivation and individual errors by players and management? )

misses the point somewhat, thats just a league title race. If the team with the bigger budget won every single game we would never watch. They will normally do so, but upsets happen. Every team will drop some points against weaker opposition. The richest teams just have more options, can drop out of form £30M players for backup £30M players.
8-

‘’Wenger’s hands have been tied’’

is surely indisputable...?

(no they haven’t, he is given £140m+ a year to spend on wages alone. He has actually spent a lot of money on transfers, just not as much as he has recouped. He isn’t denied money , he wastes money)

this argument seems inherently flawed, how does one recoup more than is spent, if what was spent was wasted...?
No manager is immune from the transfer blunder. Wenger has, despite sales, sustained a squad always good enough for CL qualification. An achievement celebrated like a trophy by Spuds, Citeh and if they ever do it again the Scousers. It's also the 'bigger resources' argument recycled
9-

‘’We don’t want to go back to boring football’’

literally have never heard anybody say that ever...

(watch our games and try denying that we already have)

we had a run of shockers. entertainmentwise, Norwich and QPR particularly. Fulham was grim to watch but a great game for the neutral
10-

‘’Without Wenger we’d struggle to get top 4’’

depends on the tense that argument is made in - Moyes is cited as a possible future replacement. Looking at the sort of players he's bought, historically IMO if we'd had him we would have missed out. He's improved as he's gone though. Over the postHighbury seasons getting us into CL every year was a hugely impressive task, personally can't think of another manager would have achieved it. With 2014 on the horizon the task is totally financially shifted (possibly also changed by FFP)

no proof of this

is a truism, there can't be

the opposite might equally be true. We might thrive under a new manager. And anyway what’s the big deal about top 4 now from a non-financial point of view? It just means boring games and more expense for fans, along with still not keeping our best players and still not attracting top quality! Nothing to get excited about)

managers are not employed from a 'non-financial point of view' and I wouldn't want them to be at my club. I want my son and daughter watching a great Arsenal.

bloody hell, knackered
rest later

[northbank123]

Can't be arsed reading all of that but a highlight for me: "We have a big wage bill to a) maximise quality of youth players b) keep on the young or mid-tier players we have made into stars". Valid assessment for United perhaps whose wage bill is not much more than ours (particularly given likely bonus payments for actually winning things), not so for us. As though I need to rattle through the long list of shit players we all know are cluttering up the wage bill on £50-60k a week and have done so over the last few years, trying to even justify our wage expenditure in relation to squad quality is absurd.

[DB10GOONER]

[highburyJD]

Top 4 wage bill
Top 4 team
What's absurd?

Can't see how that long post can be effectively replied to with a shirt one...
Long anti posts gets Yaaay go teamWOB
a response gets- I ain't reading that,
No hope of winning any debate when that's the case...

[northbank123]

Top 4 wage bill
Top 4 team
What's absurd?

Can't see how that long post can be effectively replied to with a shirt one...
Long anti posts gets Yaaay go teamWOB
a response gets- I ain't reading that,
No hope of winning any debate when that's the case...

It's obviously not a reply to the whole post, as I made clear. Not everyone enjoys spending an hour crafting a 1,000-word post, and not everybody enjoys reading those posts. It was just an observation of a comment that I happened to glance at that seemed particularly ludicrous, apologies for not taking the time to dissect and critique the whole post.

It's absurd to justify a wage structure that spunks away millions a year on useless players. Our wage bill is something like 10% less than United (probably artificial based on trophy bonuses) but about 50% more than Spurs, which squad is ours closer to in terms of ability and recent performance?

[Vinny1967]

Good post.
Personally I have not seen some of these arguments put forward by people who would be pro Wenger so I think a lot of them are moot.

It’s the decent thing to do to respect the opinions of others. But I am still waiting to hear a good argument or any valid reasons as to why Wenger should still be our manager. The kind of comments I see are stuff like these:


‘’Who would we get to replace him?’’
(inferring there is no better option out there which is ignoring the numerous other up and coming managers out there whose fresh ideas and modern thinking are surely preferable to a stubborn old man in his 60s who won’t delegate or adapt).

Stupid comment. There are others out there that could replace him.

‘’Wenger deserves respect’’
(Respect is earned and can be lost. Wenger most definitely earned it but has done too many things since then to lose it. I think Wenger deserves to be given as much respect as he shows to the fans … so that would be none then)

‘’Wenger has stayed loyal to us so we should stay loyal to him’’
(Nonsense. I suspect he probably didn’t ever really have the courage to go and take a job at the likes of Real Madrid because the expectation would be too much for him there. Why would he go from a job where he is paid a fortune by Arsenal to basically do what he likes and is under so little pressure to succeed? He has been allowed to use our club as a vehicle for his long held personal dream of growing his own team, his way. That he stayed isn’t down to loyalty. Wenger is loyal to one thing only - himself).

Will take both these points together. Yes Wenger does deserve a level of respect and I cringe at the hatred from some people towards the man. There is far worse said on here about him than is sung by oppo fans towards him yet people complain about the songs. Your comment about respecting the fans is ridiculous. Would like to hear how you would put forward an argument about what disrespect he has shown the fans. Respect should be mutual remember
You suspecting that he didn't have the courage is just an opinion that you have. He has shown loyalty down the years and has never broken a contract unlike a lot of players and managers out there. Your statement about his loyalty only towards himself is stated as a fact and applauded only be people who may share the same opinion. Cause that's all it is an opinion. My opinion is Wenger is doing and what he has done is in his opinion in the best interests of Arsenal.

‘’If Wenger goes, all our best players would go too’’
(something that has happened regardless and is an argument that elevates Wenger to a status he doesn’t merit while at the same time belittling the true status of a great football club)

Something I have never heard a Pro Wenger fan saying but obviously it's untrue.

‘’Without Arsene, there is no Arsenal’’
(an even more ridiculous version of the one above. No proper Arsenal fan would ever say something like this)

Again I have never heard an Arsenal fan state this but obviously its untrue. Arsenal were here long before Wenger and will be long after.

‘’Wenger has worked miracles, who else could have kept a club at the top after moving to a new stadium’’
(Top 4 for a club with our huge resources is not a miracle, it is actually pretty ordinary. Oh and Juventus won the title unbeaten and went 49 games unbeaten after moving to a new stadium)

Personally I think Wenger has done a remarkable job to to keep us competing up to end 2009 with all the financial constraints that we had. Comparin us to Juventus is not a good comparison but I assume you and all the other people out there applauding your answer would be fully aware of that. Building a stadium in London has far more problems and is far more expensive while we are competing with the Ogiliarch and the Sheikh wile Serie A has been on the decline with spending. Juventus also have the added advantage of picking their referees and purchasing favours. Maybe that's something we can try

‘’We cant be expected to compete with clubs with bigger resources’’
(We dropped something like 25 points last season against teams that finished in the lower half of the table and finished 19 points behind the champions. The wealth the likes of City and Chelsea have cannot influence what we do against teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan and QPR etc… how many of those points dropped were down to poor tactics, lack of motivation and individual errors by players and management? )

Last season we underperfomed without a doubt and I see no reason, with the right tactics and purchases we cannot compete. We have done before and I'm sure we will again.

‘’Wenger’s hands have been tied’’
(no they haven’t, he is given £140m+ a year to spend on wages alone. He has actually spent a lot of money on transfers, just not as much as he has recouped. He isn’t denied money , he wastes money)

Have heard this and don't agree with it either. He is not on his own in wasting money on transfers and contracts. It's not an exact science. I think after Flamini he tied players down to longer contracts and has made mistakes.

‘’We don’t want to go back to boring football’’
(watch our games and try denying that we already have)

Plenty of other managers play attractive football. Don't see that as an argument from anyone.

‘’Without Wenger we’d struggle to get top 4’’
(no proof if this, the opposite might equally be true. We might thrive under a new manager. And anyway what’s the big deal about top 4 now from a non-financial point of view? It just means boring games and more expense for fans, along with still not keeping our best players and still not attracting top quality! Nothing to get excited about)

Again I haven't seen or heard people say that but I will take your word for it. Again a stupid argument as we don't know how a new manager will do.

‘’Look at our net spend, Wenger has overachieved’’
(It is his choice not to spend. His lack of courage in the transfer market is holding us back. If he spent more so there was no profit, lets see how he can overachieve then. Wenger is a coward if he is hiding behind his net spending record when it’s not something that has been forced on him)

Hard to argue with your response.

‘’Wenger put our club on the map’’
(Herbert Chapman did that. As far as the US and Asia is concerned that is mostly because the game has gone global in the last 15 years due to technological advances. Wenger can’t take credit for that as much as I’m sure some would like us to believe).

Have not heard this either but will take your word for it.
Clearly he has not put our club on the map.
But Arsenal are in a far better place now than when he took over. We were a good cup team without financial muscle.
Now we are the 6th most wealthiest football club in the world. The work that the club has put in over the last 10/15 years has seen us grow to previous un thought of levels and we will only see the benefits of that in the future. And before there are any glib comments on a 6th place trophy I am glad that the long term outlook for The Arsenal are positive and looking forward we are well placed to cash in on that.

‘’Wenger was a revolutionary and changed English football’
(He probably did but heavy emphasis there on ‘was’. His ideas are not new ones anymore. He is yesterday’s man and that is a reason to replace him not keep him. He was good but in hindsight should have gone at the same time he began to break his last great side up)

He did yes. I agree with your comments though and a lot of clubs have copied what he implemented.
I guess it all boils down to whether people believe he can reproduce that magic from before.

Wenger is leaving a legacy for the next manager and all future managers’
(On the playing side, the legacy Wenger inherited from Graham was far better than what he is leaving behind. Wenger wouldn’t have won anything without the mentality instilled. Wenger himself has created a culture of losing and a breed of complacency. We are now a club players use as a stepping stone to bigger and better things)

I believe he is leaving a legacy. I disagree with what you state about the legacy Wenger inherited. Your contention that he would not have won anything is just your opinion. People who know far more about football and have no personal agenda would disagree with your opinion. A culture of losing and complacency is again your opinion. I think Wenger hates that we have not won anything for 7 years and is working hard to change that.

‘’Be careful what you wish for’’
(this has now one of those overused trendy phrases. In our case it simply shows a fear of the unknown. As we all know, with this kind of thinking we’d never have appointed Wenger in the first place)

Have heard this and would agree with your response.

‘’Wenger isn’t just living off past glories, he’s still a top manager’’
(so if a new manager took over in the summer of 2006 and did what Wenger has done down to the most exact detail, he’d be considered a success and would be as popular as Wenger? No chance! Of course he is living off past glories)

To an extent I would agree with you.

‘’He’s had success in the past, he can do it again’’
(he hasn’t had any success doing things the way he does them at the moment. His success came from different methods, a different style of play and most simple of all - because he had much better players than he does now. A number of them ones he inherited. His style of management cannot win anything without a team full of experienced world class players - yet he refuses to see this or to try and build a team like that)

Again its just your opinion that he won't have success.

‘’Without Wenger there would be no Emirates stadium’’
(something to resent him for rather than praise him for, just my opinion of course)

You can resent him all you like but it has no basis in reality. The Arsenal don't think about a specific fan who loved Highbury when making decisions that are in the best interest of the club. I believe without Wengers prudence and success we would not have been in a position to get the stadium so quickly and whatever you believe it was in the best interest of The Arsenal to get it built.

‘’You can’t criticise Wenger after everything he’s done’’
(an argument which conveniently ignores all the damage he has done and is still doing. And what about what Arsenal have done for Wenger? He was virtually unknown before we gambled on him and plucked him from the J-League. Thanks to Arsenal and Arsenal fans, Wenger is now a very rich, very famous and very influential man. Yet we’re told we are being ungrateful if we question him to much. Where is his gratitude to us?)

I have heard this one and it has no basis in reality. Of course we can.

‘’Wenger is our most successful manager’’
(Questionable. No European trophy won and he has not won anything that the club hadn’t already won before under another manager. In terms of total trophies won he has the most but he is also the longest serving manager by some distance. Also he now has the dubious record for the longest spell without a trophy for any one individual manager in the clubs history. Does that mean if he is the best, he is also the worst?)

Have heard this one as well and would disagree.
1. Herbert Chapman
2. Arsene Wenger
3. George Graham.
But its just opinions and bears no relation to now.

So then … unless I’ve missed them all out, there is not any reason whatsoever to keep hold of Wenger.

All the arguments to support him or for sticking with him are based on a combination of things: Believing you have a sense of duty to show him everlasting gratitude no matter what he does ... a childlike faith in everything he does or says ... an ability to ignore undisputable facts that expose his many faults … manipulating statistics to show him in a good light ... having a selective memory ... possessing delusional hope for a future that never comes ... and a fear of trying something new.

I realise I am not saying anything that hasn’t been said numerous times already. That in itself is another reason not to keep hold of Wenger. He doesnt give us anything new to discuss.

I guess it all boils down to whether people believe he can bring us success again or not. I believe he can but it's all just opinions.

[mcdowell42]

Didnt read all your post in full vinny just scanned it quickly,but i did see this following part of your post

what disrespect has he shown the fans

IMO telling us that 4th place in the PL is a trophy,telling us after the match against fulham that we can still win the pl(I do know it is possible but never ever going to happen)Telling us our 1st priority is the PL the 2nd priority the CL when everybody else knows we arent going to win either comp,telling us at the start of last season tht nasri and cesc were not leaving the club because apparently we couldnt be a big club if we sold our best players and then promptly goes and sells them and then to add insult to injury he then sells another club captain and our highest scorer for us last season to what were ONCE our RIVALS to make them stronger and on top of that at halftime at old trafford he walks off the pitch arms around rvp laughing and smiling with an ex player who had scored against us to put us 1 behind i call that fucking disrespectful to the fans.

[Vinny1967]

Didnt read all your post in full vinny just scanned it quickly,but i did see this following part of your post

what disrespect has he shown the fans

IMO telling us that 4th place in the PL is a trophy,telling us after the match against fulham that we can still win the pl(I do know it is possible but never ever going to happen)Telling us our 1st priority is the PL the 2nd priority the CL when everybody else knows we arent going to win either comp,telling us at the start of last season tht nasri and cesc were not leaving the club because apparently we couldnt be a big club if we sold our best players and then promptly goes and sells them and then to add insult to injury he then sells another club captain and our highest scorer for us last season to what were ONCE our RIVALS to make them stronger and on top of that at halftime at old trafford he walks off the pitch arms around rvp laughing and smiling with an ex player who had scored against us to put us 1 behind i call that fucking disrespectful to the fans.

Qualifying for the Ch League is surely important Mac ? Did he say it was a trophy or his goal ? Am not sure that's being disrespectful either way.
Of course Wenger is going to say that publicly. His first priority is to his players surely ?
Disagree with people stating that we are not going to win either trophy. I believe Wenger believes he can win them. Again I don't see that as disrespectful.
The Nasri and Fabregas statement ? And selling RVP. I believe he thought he could keep them. Don't see disrespect there.
The Rvp hug was definitely out of order. He should have been more mindful of the supporters. Not sure it was deliberate on his part though to disrespect anyone.