An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[mcdowell42]

Didnt read all your post in full vinny just scanned it quickly,but i did see this following part of your post

what disrespect has he shown the fans

IMO telling us that 4th place in the PL is a trophy,telling us after the match against fulham that we can still win the pl(I do know it is possible but never ever going to happen)Telling us our 1st priority is the PL the 2nd priority the CL when everybody else knows we arent going to win either comp,telling us at the start of last season tht nasri and cesc were not leaving the club because apparently we couldnt be a big club if we sold our best players and then promptly goes and sells them and then to add insult to injury he then sells another club captain and our highest scorer for us last season to what were ONCE our RIVALS to make them stronger and on top of that at halftime at old trafford he walks off the pitch arms around rvp laughing and smiling with an ex player who had scored against us to put us 1 behind i call that fucking disrespectful to the fans.

Qualifying for the Ch League is surely important Mac ? Did he say it was a trophy or his goal ? Am not sure that's being disrespectful either way.
Of course Wenger is going to say that publicly. His first priority is to his players surely ?
Disagree with people stating that we are not going to win either trophy. I believe Wenger believes he can win them. Again I don't see that as disrespectful.
The Nasri and Fabregas statement ? And selling RVP. I believe he thought he could keep them. Don't see disrespect there.
The Rvp hug was definitely out of order. He should have been more mindful of the supporters. Not sure it was deliberate on his part though to disrespect anyone.

Qualifying important to the club for the money it brings in,ive read elsewhere that it will attract the top players to the club because they all want to play in the CL ,what top players do we buy,we sell top players.I believe i can win the lottery doesnt mean i am going to win it.Cesc was under a longterm contract so didnt have to sell tbh nasri no loss really.Rvp voiced his concerns about the direction the club was taking and that made his mind up for him.I have to clarify that when i said we wont win either comp i meant with wenger in charge,he doesnt do tactics, he doesnt seem to be able to motivate the players,he continously plays players out of position,we dont do defending.Did you not think vinny tht cesc/nasri/rvp were going to leave, because it was painfully obvious to me that they were going.

[Vinny1967]

Qualifying is important Mac. The money is used on players and our youth structure. Its not as if it's going out of the club in dividends to the directors. Its ploughed into playing off debt or the running of the club. Without it we would have less money to spend. It's not rocket science.

Podolski and Cazorla would be top players Mac. Would they have come to us without us being in the Ch League ? Its spoken about often enough by players and managers so it must be an issue. What player would choose one club that is not in the competition over another, when the offer they receive and all else being equal. I think it is a factor. I also think we will spend more money in January and the fact that we are in the Ch League is an advantage over our rivals that are not in it.

I understand what you are saying about knowing these players would leave. Of course we did not have to sell Fab but would it make sense to keep a player who wants to play somewhere else ? My point was I don't see any of above as being disrespectful to the fans.

As regards our chances of winning the Ch League. I do think our chances are slim of us winning. I could turn around and quote Porto, Liverpool, Chelski and with a bit of luck and so on but am not going to.
One thing that is definite though. We won't win it of we are not in it.

[SteveO 35]

Qualifying for the Ch League is surely important Mac ?

I think it used to be important in the days when only one or two teams from their country could qualify for it and when the club was signing and trying to hold on to genuinely world class players. These days its a fop - Wenger said that "players do not ask did you win the League Cup, they ask do you play in the Champions League". Well I don't think that's true for a number of our signings - 60k per week or so and the opportunity to play for Arsenal would have been enough to sign Giroud, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Chamakh, Mertesacker, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Arteta, Podolski for example. None of them were signed from clubs used to playing regularly in the CL or with the same financial muscle and history as us. We could have signed them if we'd finished 5th I'm convinced of that. Perhaps Cazorla was the one that we might not have been able to sign

Look at Liverpool - Suarez was a very hot property when they splashed out for him. Have a big enough history and deep pockets for wages and it can be enough to sign players that are playing for lower ranked clubs or clubs in less wealthy leagues. Now he's become an even bigger name with a bigger reputation the Scousers face what we do i.e. if Man City or Real Madrid come calling and you're not winning stuff, then its a battle to keep hold of him. If Liverpool finished 4th and City won the league and offered £40m and the player £200k per week he would leave.

The top top players want to win the CL - not just scrape into it finishing 4th and then limp out at the last 16 stage.

If the club showed the ambition to win it, there would be a snowball effect. Keep just qualifying for it and we'll carry on being able to attract the calibre of player I mention above and no better....and if they go up to the next level they too will want to leave like RvP, Cesc and Nasri

[Vinny1967]

Qualifying for the Ch League is surely important Mac ?

I think it used to be important in the days when only one or two teams from their country could qualify for it and when the club was signing and trying to hold on to genuinely world class players. These days its a fop - Wenger said that "players do not ask did you win the League Cup, they ask do you play in the Champions League". Well I don't think that's true for a number of our signings - 60k per week or so and the opportunity to play for Arsenal would have been enough to sign Giroud, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Chamakh, Mertesacker, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Arteta, Podolski for example. None of them were signed from clubs used to playing regularly in the CL or with the same financial muscle and history as us. We could have signed them if we'd finished 5th I'm convinced of that. Perhaps Cazorla was the one that we might not have been able to sign

Look at Liverpool - Suarez was a very hot property when they splashed out for him. Have a big enough history and deep pockets for wages and it can be enough to sign players that are playing for lower ranked clubs or clubs in less wealthy leagues. Now he's become an even bigger name with a bigger reputation the Scousers face what we do i.e. if Man City or Real Madrid come calling and you're not winning stuff, then its a battle to keep hold of him. If Liverpool finished 4th and City won the league and offered £40m and the player £200k per week he would leave.

The top top players want to win the CL - not just scrape into it finishing 4th and then limp out at the last 16 stage.

If the club showed the ambition to win it, there would be a snowball effect. Keep just qualifying for it and we'll carry on being able to attract the calibre of player I mention above and no better....and if they go up to the next level they too will want to leave like RvP, Cesc and Nasri

You stating that they would have signed for us if we were not in the Ch League either way does not make it true Steve.
The fact is we don't know. As I said to Mac it is mentioned often enough be players and managers (other than Arsenal) so it has to be a factor. I would nearly guarantee you that the majority of players, managers, directors and supporters of clubs like Liverpool, Everton, Spurs would prefer they were in the Ch League. The extra money earned has got to be a factor in the strength of any club. It has been argued often enough on here about the League basis making more money for the clubs which is true. It is also making those same clubs richer than the clubs that do not qualify for it. I want Arsenal to be a part of that.

[SteveO 35]

Qualifying for the Ch League is surely important Mac ?

I think it used to be important in the days when only one or two teams from their country could qualify for it and when the club was signing and trying to hold on to genuinely world class players. These days its a fop - Wenger said that "players do not ask did you win the League Cup, they ask do you play in the Champions League". Well I don't think that's true for a number of our signings - 60k per week or so and the opportunity to play for Arsenal would have been enough to sign Giroud, Koscielny, Vermaelen, Sagna, Chamakh, Mertesacker, Jenkinson, Gervinho, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Arteta, Podolski for example. None of them were signed from clubs used to playing regularly in the CL or with the same financial muscle and history as us. We could have signed them if we'd finished 5th I'm convinced of that. Perhaps Cazorla was the one that we might not have been able to sign

Look at Liverpool - Suarez was a very hot property when they splashed out for him. Have a big enough history and deep pockets for wages and it can be enough to sign players that are playing for lower ranked clubs or clubs in less wealthy leagues. Now he's become an even bigger name with a bigger reputation the Scousers face what we do i.e. if Man City or Real Madrid come calling and you're not winning stuff, then its a battle to keep hold of him. If Liverpool finished 4th and City won the league and offered £40m and the player £200k per week he would leave.

The top top players want to win the CL - not just scrape into it finishing 4th and then limp out at the last 16 stage.

If the club showed the ambition to win it, there would be a snowball effect. Keep just qualifying for it and we'll carry on being able to attract the calibre of player I mention above and no better....and if they go up to the next level they too will want to leave like RvP, Cesc and Nasri

You stating that they would have signed for us if we were not in the Ch League either way does not make it true Steve.
The fact is we don't know. As I said to Mac it is mentioned often enough be players and managers (other than Arsenal) so it has to be a factor. I would nearly guarantee you that the majority of players, managers, directors and supporters of clubs like Liverpool, Everton, Spurs would prefer they were in the Ch League. The extra money earned has got to be a factor in the strength of any club. It has been argued often enough on here about the League basis making more money for the clubs which is true. It is also making those same clubs richer than the clubs that do not qualify for it. I want Arsenal to be a part of that.

Vinny, I don't dispute that the owners of those clubs would want to be in the CL. Of course they would - it guarantees them £20m+ per annum. What I am saying, and we are living proof of it, is that it does not mean that you get to keep your best players nor does it mean that you attract top players automatically, just by qualifying for it. It is the bare minimum standard now and for the best players you need to regularly go deep into the competition and show that you have the ambition to win it. Do you think Cesc and Van Persie want to play for a team that goes 90 mins without a shot in the Nou Camp?

The example of Suarez joining a Liverpool side that have almost forgotten what it takes to qualify for the CL is a fact. Steven Gerrard has stayed there despite not qualifying - that's a fact. During that period we continued to qualify and for my money have not signed a striker anywhere near the calibre of Suarez, and in fact have sold the clubs two 'world class' players of the past few seasons in Van Persie and Fabregas

I want us to be part of it too - but I want to celebrate being it by reinvesting the money it generates into building a more competitive team - not to generate the £20m or so to pay Stan's dividend this year and as an excuse to charge fans more for tickets whilst shovelling all the cash into their back pockets

[Vinny1967]

Vinny, I don't dispute that the owners of those clubs would want to be in the CL. Of course they would - it guarantees them £20m+ per annum. What I am saying, and we are living proof of it, is that it does not mean that you get to keep your best players nor does it mean that you attract top players automatically, just by qualifying for it. It is the bare minimum standard now and for the best players you need to regularly go deep into the competition and show that you have the ambition to win it. Do you think Cesc and Van Persie want to play for a team that goes 90 mins without a shot in the Nou Camp?

The example of Suarez joining a Liverpool side that have almost forgotten what it takes to qualify for the CL is a fact. Steven Gerrard has stayed there despite not qualifying - that's a fact. During that period we continued to qualify and for my money have not signed a striker anywhere near the calibre of Suarez, and in fact have sold the clubs two 'world class' players of the past few seasons in Van Persie and Fabregas

I want us to be part of it too - but I want to celebrate being it by reinvesting the money it generates into building a more competitive team - not to generate the £20m or so to pay Stan's dividend this year and as an excuse to charge fans more for tickets whilst shovelling all the cash into their back pockets

It is the bare minimum standard now for Arsenal and for its supporters SteveO. It is not for the supporters of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Villa and so on. The more they don't qualify and the more we do qualify the greater the gulf becomes. I fail to understand how anyone can say its not important to qualify when the facts state something different. The way it is set up it widens the gulf, financially, between those partaking and those that are not. Do I want us to be in it, hell yeah I do, as the alternative is not that appetising. Being outside of the biggest cash cow in Europe is not an option for me. It is important that we are in it and the fact that we have been in it for 346 consecutive seasons means a lot to us financially. None of that money has been spent on dividends and while the question went unanswered at the agm that doesn't automatically mean Stan will be taking it. The money has been put aside for debt or has been ploughed back into the running costs of the club. That is a fact. Adding the comment about Stan taking it in dividends is just obfuscation. If he wants dividends he would take them regardless of whether we are in the Ch League or not.

Your not on your own in wanting a more competitive team. I and I would think all Arsenal supporters want us to be more competitive.
Suarez and Gerrard. Gerrard could have played Ch League regularily but refused to do so as he decided to stay at his boyhood club. Nothing wrong with that.
Suarez is a top player not playing in it. But giving one example , and there are probably others, does not an argument make. There is ample evidence out there of players talking about how important it is to be playing regularily for it not to be a factor. Its not the be all and end all but the teams that actually play in the Ch League can afford to pay higher wages so it does come into it.

As a supporter I want to see us winning the Carling Cup or the FA cup, but I also think being a part of this cash cow has been important to us and continues to be important to us.

[mcdowell42]

Vinny, I don't dispute that the owners of those clubs would want to be in the CL. Of course they would - it guarantees them £20m+ per annum. What I am saying, and we are living proof of it, is that it does not mean that you get to keep your best players nor does it mean that you attract top players automatically, just by qualifying for it. It is the bare minimum standard now and for the best players you need to regularly go deep into the competition and show that you have the ambition to win it. Do you think Cesc and Van Persie want to play for a team that goes 90 mins without a shot in the Nou Camp?

The example of Suarez joining a Liverpool side that have almost forgotten what it takes to qualify for the CL is a fact. Steven Gerrard has stayed there despite not qualifying - that's a fact. During that period we continued to qualify and for my money have not signed a striker anywhere near the calibre of Suarez, and in fact have sold the clubs two 'world class' players of the past few seasons in Van Persie and Fabregas

I want us to be part of it too - but I want to celebrate being it by reinvesting the money it generates into building a more competitive team - not to generate the £20m or so to pay Stan's dividend this year and as an excuse to charge fans more for tickets whilst shovelling all the cash into their back pockets

It is the bare minimum standard now for Arsenal and for its supporters SteveO. It is not for the supporters of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Villa and so on. The more they don't qualify and the more we do qualify the greater the gulf becomes. I fail to understand how anyone can say its not important to qualify when the facts state something different. The way it is set up it widens the gulf, financially, between those partaking and those that are not. Do I want us to be in it, hell yeah I do, as the alternative is not that appetising. Being outside of the biggest cash cow in Europe is not an option for me. It is important that we are in it and the fact that we have been in it for 346 consecutive seasons means a lot to us financially. None of that money has been spent on dividends and while the question went unanswered at the agm that doesn't automatically mean Stan will be taking it. The money has been put aside for debt or has been ploughed back into the running costs of the club. That is a fact. Adding the comment about Stan taking it in dividends is just obfuscation. If he wants dividends he would take them regardless of whether we are in the Ch League or not.

Your not on your own in wanting a more competitive team. I and I would think all Arsenal supporters want us to be more competitive.
Suarez and Gerrard. Gerrard could have played Ch League regularily but refused to do so as he decided to stay at his boyhood club. Nothing wrong with that.
Suarez is a top player not playing in it. But giving one example , and there are probably others, does not an argument make. There is ample evidence out there of players talking about how important it is to be playing regularily for it not to be a factor. Its not the be all and end all but the teams that actually play in the Ch League can afford to pay higher wages so it does come into it.

As a supporter I want to see us winning the Carling Cup or the FA cup, but I also think being a part of this cash cow has been important to us and continues to be important to us.

I suppose vinny if we were winning these cups on a regular basis and qualifying for the CL alot of us would accept that but the reality is we sacrifice these cups for the pursuit of the CL holy grail or the mythical 4th place trophy as it is known in certain circles,we have a great tradition in the FA cup but thts being fucked away for the cash cow tht is the CL.

[Vinny1967]

Yeah I agree Mac. I would like to see more of an emphasis put on winning the cups, any cup ffs. Winning becomes a habit and teams grow together better. It becomes something that the players need more and more.
I do think the bad start we have had to the season, the grief the club got at the agm, and the questions being asked about Wenger in the press adds more pressure and hopefully it will have a positive impact on the powers that be, Wenger especially. He is a proud man and I don't think he will want his Arsenal tenure to be brought to an end badly.

Oops

[northbank123]

Vinny, I don't dispute that the owners of those clubs would want to be in the CL. Of course they would - it guarantees them £20m+ per annum. What I am saying, and we are living proof of it, is that it does not mean that you get to keep your best players nor does it mean that you attract top players automatically, just by qualifying for it. It is the bare minimum standard now and for the best players you need to regularly go deep into the competition and show that you have the ambition to win it. Do you think Cesc and Van Persie want to play for a team that goes 90 mins without a shot in the Nou Camp?

The example of Suarez joining a Liverpool side that have almost forgotten what it takes to qualify for the CL is a fact. Steven Gerrard has stayed there despite not qualifying - that's a fact. During that period we continued to qualify and for my money have not signed a striker anywhere near the calibre of Suarez, and in fact have sold the clubs two 'world class' players of the past few seasons in Van Persie and Fabregas

I want us to be part of it too - but I want to celebrate being it by reinvesting the money it generates into building a more competitive team - not to generate the £20m or so to pay Stan's dividend this year and as an excuse to charge fans more for tickets whilst shovelling all the cash into their back pockets

It is the bare minimum standard now for Arsenal and for its supporters SteveO. It is not for the supporters of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Villa and so on. The more they don't qualify and the more we do qualify the greater the gulf becomes. I fail to understand how anyone can say its not important to qualify when the facts state something different. The way it is set up it widens the gulf, financially, between those partaking and those that are not. Do I want us to be in it, hell yeah I do, as the alternative is not that appetising. Being outside of the biggest cash cow in Europe is not an option for me. It is important that we are in it and the fact that we have been in it for 346 consecutive seasons means a lot to us financially. None of that money has been spent on dividends and while the question went unanswered at the agm that doesn't automatically mean Stan will be taking it. The money has been put aside for debt or has been ploughed back into the running costs of the club. That is a fact. Adding the comment about Stan taking it in dividends is just obfuscation. If he wants dividends he would take them regardless of whether we are in the Ch League or not.

Your not on your own in wanting a more competitive team. I and I would think all Arsenal supporters want us to be more competitive.
Suarez and Gerrard. Gerrard could have played Ch League regularily but refused to do so as he decided to stay at his boyhood club. Nothing wrong with that.
Suarez is a top player not playing in it. But giving one example , and there are probably others, does not an argument make. There is ample evidence out there of players talking about how important it is to be playing regularily for it not to be a factor. Its not the be all and end all but the teams that actually play in the Ch League can afford to pay higher wages so it does come into it.

As a supporter I want to see us winning the Carling Cup or the FA cup, but I also think being a part of this cash cow has been important to us and continues to be important to us.

I know where you're coming from but fact is it ain't true. Spurs are getting closer to us every year to the extent where they're now on a par with us in terms of league performance. Newcastle, Spurs and Everton haven't been near us for years and years until last year when Spurs and Newcastle could've easily bested us and this year Spurs and Everton are both more than capable of doing so. We are more susceptible than ever to challenge for our coveted 4th-place and are miles off winning the league, not much of an expanding gulf is it? Fact is other clubs haven't built bloated wage structures around the expectation of CL football so they don't need that money to maintain decent squads.

[Vinny1967]

Vinny, I don't dispute that the owners of those clubs would want to be in the CL. Of course they would - it guarantees them £20m+ per annum. What I am saying, and we are living proof of it, is that it does not mean that you get to keep your best players nor does it mean that you attract top players automatically, just by qualifying for it. It is the bare minimum standard now and for the best players you need to regularly go deep into the competition and show that you have the ambition to win it. Do you think Cesc and Van Persie want to play for a team that goes 90 mins without a shot in the Nou Camp?

The example of Suarez joining a Liverpool side that have almost forgotten what it takes to qualify for the CL is a fact. Steven Gerrard has stayed there despite not qualifying - that's a fact. During that period we continued to qualify and for my money have not signed a striker anywhere near the calibre of Suarez, and in fact have sold the clubs two 'world class' players of the past few seasons in Van Persie and Fabregas

I want us to be part of it too - but I want to celebrate being it by reinvesting the money it generates into building a more competitive team - not to generate the £20m or so to pay Stan's dividend this year and as an excuse to charge fans more for tickets whilst shovelling all the cash into their back pockets

It is the bare minimum standard now for Arsenal and for its supporters SteveO. It is not for the supporters of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Villa and so on. The more they don't qualify and the more we do qualify the greater the gulf becomes. I fail to understand how anyone can say its not important to qualify when the facts state something different. The way it is set up it widens the gulf, financially, between those partaking and those that are not. Do I want us to be in it, hell yeah I do, as the alternative is not that appetising. Being outside of the biggest cash cow in Europe is not an option for me. It is important that we are in it and the fact that we have been in it for 346 consecutive seasons means a lot to us financially. None of that money has been spent on dividends and while the question went unanswered at the agm that doesn't automatically mean Stan will be taking it. The money has been put aside for debt or has been ploughed back into the running costs of the club. That is a fact. Adding the comment about Stan taking it in dividends is just obfuscation. If he wants dividends he would take them regardless of whether we are in the Ch League or not.

Your not on your own in wanting a more competitive team. I and I would think all Arsenal supporters want us to be more competitive.
Suarez and Gerrard. Gerrard could have played Ch League regularily but refused to do so as he decided to stay at his boyhood club. Nothing wrong with that.
Suarez is a top player not playing in it. But giving one example , and there are probably others, does not an argument make. There is ample evidence out there of players talking about how important it is to be playing regularily for it not to be a factor. Its not the be all and end all but the teams that actually play in the Ch League can afford to pay higher wages so it does come into it.

As a supporter I want to see us winning the Carling Cup or the FA cup, but I also think being a part of this cash cow has been important to us and continues to be important to us.

I know where you're coming from but fact is it ain't true. Spurs are getting closer to us every year to the extent where they're now on a par with us in terms of league performance. Newcastle, Spurs and Everton haven't been near us for years and years until last year when Spurs and Newcastle could've easily bested us and this year Spurs and Everton are both more than capable of doing so. We are more susceptible than ever to challenge for our coveted 4th-place and are miles off winning the league, not much of an expanding gulf is it? Fact is other clubs haven't built bloated wage structures around the expectation of CL football so they don't need that money to maintain decent squads.

Yeah I agree NB in that it's not transferring onto the pitch for us. For the majority of clubs it is creating more of a gulf though. Our policy of ''banking'' monies for debt repayment is a huge factor in this. I also think Wenger's mismanagement in the summer of '11 has been a factor. We have undoubtedly underperformed for two seasons now and we should be putting a gap between ourselves and them. Had high hopes for this team before the last Intl break but we have regressed since then. Am hoping this Intl break has the same impact in reverse as I do think this team and the squad has a lot of potential.

[mcdowell42]

Yeah I agree Mac. I would like to see more of an emphasis put on winning the cups, any cup ffs. Winning becomes a habit and teams grow together better. It becomes something that the players need more and more.
I do think the bad start we have had to the season, the grief the club got at the agm, and the questions being asked about Wenger in the press adds more pressure and hopefully it will have a positive impact on the powers that be, Wenger especially. He is a proud man and I don't think he will want his Arsenal tenure to be brought to an end badly.

Oops

Took your time in editing out steves name vinny

[Vinny1967]

Yeah I agree Mac. I would like to see more of an emphasis put on winning the cups, any cup ffs. Winning becomes a habit and teams grow together better. It becomes something that the players need more and more.
I do think the bad start we have had to the season, the grief the club got at the agm, and the questions being asked about Wenger in the press adds more pressure and hopefully it will have a positive impact on the powers that be, Wenger especially. He is a proud man and I don't think he will want his Arsenal tenure to be brought to an end badly.

Oops

Took your time in editing out steves name vinny

I just seen it when answering NB

Sorry Mac.........I owe you a pint

[Steve_I]

Eh ?? How can you not look at the whole tenure of a manager when deciding his fate ?

I didn't. I assumed that's what you had done when you asked the question. My response to your question says this is what I thought... i think

I don't think you can necessarily seperate the years Arsene hasn't managed a trophy winning team from the years he has...

it seems therefore that we agree. Apologies for misinterpreting your question there sir.

[highburyJD]

Personally if Wenger said we could not win the league I'd have felt insulted

[DB10GOONER]

Personally if Wenger said we could not win the league I'd have felt insulted

Really?

Christ I'd have been delighted. It would mean he finally had accepted that he has got it wrong. It would mean a bit of pragmatism and honesty for once. If he then followed it up by stating that we needed to bring in 4 key players in January? I honestly think I'd spank one out.