An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[SteveO 35]

And where does your love of being the centre stage of Europe fit in with that?

Surely the superfans are too wrapped up in their European adventure to care who else is watching the game across Europe? Besides, I can't think of anybody that would be choosing to watch us scrape past Montpellier at home ahead of City v Madrid or Ajax v Dortmund.

I guess given that I'm not from the People's Republic of Islington I couldn't hope to understand.

I'll pre-empt your reply:





Outlandish controversial statement
Insist not a WUM

Aaaarrrggghhhh ! Don't tread on the rake mate and feed the WUM. You'll soon find that if you don't reply to his latest Bartonesque ramble that he'll go and play with his toys for a bit

[highburyJD]

To be fair JD, I posed the same question a couple of times on here to those who think Wenger deserves to stay – once to you directly (with no reply ) and another time just generally – and I've still yet to see any supporter of Wenger actually make a case for what areas of football management he currently excels in. Same goes for his supporters out in the big bad real world, and the window lickers in the press.

Given all the flaws and mistakes over the last 5,6 years surely if he's had enough strong points over that same time to outweigh all of them then his supporters should be putting them forward instead of just the generic "he's kept us top 4" argument. Tactics, motivation, man-management, transfers – on all fronts (those in, those out, those shaking it all about, those he realistically could've signed but didn't, those he should have sold but kept), improving players etc etc. I genuinely can't think of one area of management where I'd say the Wenger of today really excels. And I've never listened to talksport once in my life. I'm genuinely curious as to what qualities you think Wenger 2.0 brings to the table that make him a top class manager worthy of a club like Arsenal?

Sorry I didn't reply to a direct question, didn't realise.
It's a complicated question to respond to (and slightly unfair to dismiss the "he's kept us top 4" argument.
Is there a fairer way to determine a football teams quality than where they finish in their league...?)
But I get your point, you want a more specific analysis.

There's a consensus on weaknesses - tactics/subs.
There used to be a consensus on strengths - style/making stars.
Which you're essentially saying are Wenger 1.0 skills that he no longer has (is that fair..?)

I think our current squad is under-rated: our midrange signings in last few seasons where excellent
Kos, Tets, Mertesacker, Verm I think are all good value, top quality, solid professionals.
Koscielny is just small details away from becoming one of the worlds best centrebacks.
Ox can go on to be a real star but isn't quite in the 'solid' group listed above yet.
Sagna, an earlier purchase, is world class IMO, up there with any defensive fullback in the world. A bargain.
Cazorla is a recent signing, and of course things can change. (Arshavin started well) but I think most would agree he's brilliant, one of the leagues best.
Podolski and Giroud I like, but accept both still have much to prove.
The mid ranking player I've missed is Gervinho, probably (despite a flurry of early form this season) a bad buy.
Those signings came in as our post Invincibles team fell to pieces.
I don't think realistically Wenger could have kept Fabregas, Greedybarndoor, Clichy, Hleb, Kolo, Na$ri or vanStaplec*nt.
Although mistakes were made over Gilberto, Diarra and Flamster
I think those mistakes, like a general fighting the previous war, resulted in mistakenly 'locking in' Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner, Djourou and Rosicky (not saying I'd sell all of them).
On balance I think Wenger's squad building, with the budgetary constraints he was under - has been brilliant.
And, sorry, one of the best means of justifying this position is our league placing and ability to negotiate CL group stages.

When we are good, we still play some excellent football. Admittedly this seasons high possession performances have been dominance of the sterile kind. When we play good opposition, and get on the front foot, we can be scintillating - both 5-2s, 5-3 at the Bridge, beating Chelski and Barca at the Grove. We can, at our best, play at a level not many teams can live with.
Which is why, even when on poor form, Wenger can send out teams capable of beating any team in a one off.

Wengers strengths for me are style, the transfer market and belief.

[flash gunner]

[highburyJD]

Always coming 4th trophy might only be virtual,
and getting out the CL groups 13 times isnt winning it
Calling it nothing is insane.
Claiming it can be done by somebody with no managerial skill is straight nuts.

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised how many middle of the road managers could achieve those dizzy heights on the same shoe string wage budget of 140 million quid per annum that the messiah gets lauded for.

our run of 4th place teams have normally been built inexpensively
no reason mid-ranking prem teams couldn't get almost all of our signings
the high wage bill is keeping them (and is sustained by selling them)

Moyes, on of the go to alternatives on here, could probably have signed almost any player we have
why aren't these middle of the road managers frequently breaking into the top 4..?

[highburyJD]

And where does your love of being the centre stage of Europe fit in with that?

fit in with what...?
Severn Bridge isn't quite the Eurostar - but don't you get a bit excited going to see the football in a foreign country?

[highburyJD]

Aaaarrrggghhhh ! Don't tread on the rake mate and feed the WUM. You'll soon find that if you don't reply to his latest Bartonesque ramble that he'll go and play with his toys for a bit

tread on the rake...? hmmm
haven't mentioned you in my posts princess
but arent you harbouring a wee crush, begging big JD to be bouncer at your imaginary parties
on threads I havent even posted on...

[northbank123]

And where does your love of being the centre stage of Europe fit in with that?

fit in with what...?
Severn Bridge isn't quite the Eurostar - but don't you get a bit excited going to see the football in a foreign country?

But without money from foreign fans like me Arsenal wouldn't be able to afford to spend £140m+ in wages to finish 1 point above Spurs and let you have your annual pilgrimage to Piraeus

You're welcome.

[highburyJD]

ta for your contribution,
reckon we might just have enough people in London to scrape by without it though...

still don't understand your "fit in with that" point

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Sorry I didn't reply to a direct question, didn't realise.
It's a complicated question to respond to (and slightly unfair to dismiss the "he's kept us top 4" argument.
Is there a fairer way to determine a football teams quality than where they finish in their league...?)
But I get your point, you want a more specific analysis.

No biggie, was a while back on the million page Wenger thread anyway so could easily get lost.
I don't outright dismiss the "he's kept us above xyz" argument, I just think it needs to be judged in its proper context. Went into more detail before that I'm too lazy to rewrite so I'll just link the original post in case you can be arsed to read it... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34817&p=787243&hili ... ch#p787243

...Wengers strengths for me are style, the transfer market and belief.

These are the qualities that make him still the best man for the job? Style and belief? For someone who's retained their faith in the man in the face of fairly damning evidence that's underwhelming in the extreme.

I'd agree that there has been some quality players signed in the last 5 years and that player for player we're not as bad as we are collectively (another tick in the negative column for Wenger imo), but taking his transfer record as a whole and looking at the big picture over that time I really can't see the argument that he's excelled in that area. If he had then so many major deficiencies in the squad wouldn't have gone unresolved year upon year, we all know what they are.

Obviously "style" is subjective but do you honestly believe we've consistently played good football since 2007/08? Picking out the odd stand-out game is clutching at straws if you're gonna hold up style as one of his strengths. Not to mention, even if we had would that be a strong enough quality to outweigh his/our deficiencies? I'd have thought there'd be something more substantial you could have put forward given your belief in the man.

I don't even know what to say about the "belief" one. Belief in what? Players who haven't produced? Himself? Lizard People? How exactly has this belief translated into something positive for Arsenal? I can think of quite a few negatives it's resulted in. That sounds even more airy fairy than the style one.

All in all, I don't see how those "qualities" remotely stack up against his deficiencies. For the life of me I really cant understand how you can weigh up the pros and cons of his managerial qualities over the last 5 years (as you've listed them) and still believe he's the best man to take us forward. Probably best to agree to disagree but are you sure you really want him to stay? Cos you don't sound that convinced yourself. Which was sort of the point, when push comes to shove even his defenders seem to struggle to come up with much positive to say about his managerial skills at this point.

[highburyJD]

I agree our style of football has not been consistent enough (only consistent in patches)
what I was attempting to express with the style bit was that the style we're aiming for, and play in our best performances, gives me hope we can win anything.

I'll read that other bit and come back.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

I agree our style of football has not been consistent enough (only consistent in patches)
what I was attempting to express with the style bit was that the style we're aiming for, and play in our best performances, gives me hope we can win anything.

I'll read that other bit and come back.

So the fact Wenger wants us to play good football (even though we don't do it anywhere near often enough) is a significant enough strength of his to balance out things like complete tactical ineptitude and so on? Everton can beat anyone when they play at their best. So can the scum and lots of other teams. Surely you can see that's a weak "strength" to put up in his defence in the grand scheme of things.

[DB10GOONER]

I agree our style of football has not been consistent enough (only consistent in patches)
what I was attempting to express with the style bit was that the style we're aiming for, and play in our best performances, gives me hope we can win anything.

I'll read that other bit and come back.

So the fact Wenger wants us to play good football (even though we don't do it anywhere near often enough) is a significant enough strength of his to balance out things like complete tactical ineptitude and so on? Everton can beat anyone when they play at their best. So can the scum and lots of other teams. Surely you can see that's a weak "strength" to put up in his defence in the grand scheme of things.

Good points IU4GN.

Would just like to mention, one of the strengths I listed in my application to NASA is that I want to be an astronaut. I'm quite hopeful of getting a call from them soon.

To say;

"...Wengers strengths for me are style, the transfer market and belief."

is just mental. I'll give him the fact he has "belief", albeit nearly always in the wrong players!

And as for the transfer market??!! Arsene living on past glories again?? Selling our best players and buying in (mostly) average to poor players that don't develop is a strength in the transfer market??!!

As for style? Boring little passing triangles out on the halfway line, and then over to the other side of the pitch, with no real pace, no real penetration and no real guile is NOT a strength. Yeah, we USED TO be really entertaining and stylish, but there we go again with Arsene and his worshippers living in the past...

[highburyJD]

I think at our best, we look a team stylistically that could beat everyone week in week out.
A team that can win the big two trophies but also our style means consistency.
The reason we've been able to replace players and still always make CL (and get out the groups) is the possession based technical football Wengers instituted.

(I did say the same in '99, diff style, and we went 3 years without anything).

in recruitment terms Wenger has funded a consistently unsustainable wage bill through sales
I think this, in particular, goes unrecognised

[DB10GOONER]

I think at our best, we look a team stylistically that could beat everyone week in week out.
A team that can win the big two trophies but also our style means consistency.
The reason we've been able to replace players and still always make CL (and get out the groups) is the possession based technical football Wengers instituted.

(I did say the same in '99, diff style, and we went 3 years without anything).

in recruitment terms Wenger has funded a consistently unsustainable wage bill through sales
I think this, in particular, goes unrecognised

Yes, that is a good strength.

Well done, Arsene - sell our best players to fund your overpaying our shit players and our average players and award their repeated failures with improved contracts and pay rises!

Get rid of the quality to overpay the mediocre!!

Genius!

[highburyJD]

the 'quality' only stayed for so long because sales funded their disproportionately high wages
my opinion is that Wenger has made quality players come and stay longer

and ultimately it comes down to results - we have disappointed but challenged
an impressive feat, a useless manager gets found out
he does not consistently achieve the minimum, let alone out perform some better funded rivals