An urgent plea to Arsene supporters..

[Skooner]

What about desire? One of the areas I think we lack massively a collective desire to do well. Wenger actually thinks we have loads of it but I just don't see it on the pitch in comparison to other teams. If you ask any footballer if they want to win they will say yes. But some only put in effort when they feel like it, for others it is a natural state of being regardless of form. Those players look like they want it more than anyone else on the pitch. I don't think you'll ever have 11 players in a team that have it but you need three or four and those guys are the generals that kick the others up the arse when needed.

When I look at our squad, Jack has it and that is probably about it. Some may disagree but I always thought Fabregas had it as well. Wenger is obsessed with technical excellence, to the detriment of other important personality traits.

[DB10GOONER]

the 'quality' only stayed for so long because sales funded their disproportionately high wages
my opinion is that Wenger has made quality players come and stay longer

and ultimately it comes down to results - we have disappointed but challenged
an impressive feat, a useless manager gets found out
he does not consistently achieve the minimum, let alone out perform some better funded rivals

Finishing 21 or 19 points behind the champions is not challenging. Only getting to one CL final in 16 years of Wenger's tenure is not challenging. Even you cannot believe that, surely?

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

the 'quality' only stayed for so long because sales funded their disproportionately high wages
my opinion is that Wenger has made quality players come and stay longer

and ultimately it comes down to results - we have disappointed but challenged
an impressive feat, a useless manager gets found out
he does not consistently achieve the minimum, let alone out perform some better funded rivals

The quality weren't on disproportionately high wages. The average and shite were, and still are. So too is Wenger. So too now is Gazidis. The one area we don't pay the going rate (never mind above it) is on quality players.

We haven't challenged. G88ner made a recent post countering that argument better than I could so I wont repeat it.

And as for the outperformed better funded teams comment I put my thoughts on that in the post I linked above. When you break down and properly analyse who we've finished above these last 5 years it's not as impressive as you make out, and nowhere near impressive enough to outweigh the flaws in Wenger's management in that time.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

I think at our best, we look a team stylistically that could beat everyone week in week out.
A team that can win the big two trophies but also our style means consistency.
The reason we've been able to replace players and still always make CL (and get out the groups) is the possession based technical football Wengers instituted.

(I did say the same in '99, diff style, and we went 3 years without anything).

in recruitment terms Wenger has funded a consistently unsustainable wage bill through sales
I think this, in particular, goes unrecognised

I'm not sure if that's meant to be in defence of Wenger or the opposite. So at our best we look good (which half decent team doesn't?) but we don't play near our best anywhere near often enough. We've got a team that can win the Big 2, but how of often have we come anywhere close to winning them? Or even the bigger 1 of the Little 2 for that matter? Surely that in itself would equate to a failure on Wenger's part to get the best out of his team/squad? Stylistically or otherwise. Yes we can beat anyone on our day (usually the sort of tripe Redknobb comes out with about his teams) but we can lose to anyone as well. Where's the exceptional strength here?

[highburyJD]

Wherever finish in the league is too intangible a concept to base an argument on
but desire isn't...?
We've got to a CL final, semis and quarters,
yes that's challenging, of course it is.

What should we have done in that period?
What's your baseline expectation?

[DB10_TH14]

Wherever finish in the league is too intangible a concept to base an argument on
but desire isn't...?
We've got to a CL final, semis and quarters,
yes that's challenging, of course it is.

What should we have done in that period?
What's your baseline expectation?

i think its hard to question the players desire but so frustrating to see them perform in certain games however against teams we consider that we should be turning over it often becomes an arrogance in which some arsenal teams in past have turned up and lacked in the need and urgency to do what is required to win that game.

while we are challenging for the champions league i never feel we're contenders to win it, so its somewhat annoying to put our eggs in this basket and give away games in the league cup and f.a cup in which we have a better chance of winning. my baseline expectation for the club has now changed once upon a time you had to expect us to be up their challenging for the league but now its simply a top 4 spot and hope for a decent cup run. the standards that have been set for the club 10 years ago perhaps now come to hinder us though, even with wenger out its not a given that any great change will be made or improvement in the team for us to challenge for the honours that people expect from us.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Wherever finish in the league is too intangible a concept to base an argument on
but desire isn't...?
We've got to a CL final, semis and quarters,
yes that's challenging, of course it is.

What should we have done in that period?
What's your baseline expectation?

No one said it was intangible as far as I'm aware, just that the "achievement" of finishing 4th should be kept in context and isn't the great miracle it's made out to be. Skooner definitely didn't mention it and he's the one who brought up desire. So not sure where you're seeing a contradiction. Isn't that what you'd call "strawman bs" when 'tunde did the same thing?

On the challenging for the CL front I'd refer you to that g88ner post I mentioned before. And also bear in mind the final you mention was in 2006, I can't speak for anyone else but my issue with Wenger's reign is really from halfway through the 07/08 season onwards and it's that period managing those teams that I was asking you about.

[highburyJD]

'Desire' as a buzzword gets on my nerves, nobody knows what's in another's head
but I didn't mean it in response to one person, Shearer et al trot it out all the time

[highburyJD]

Finishing 4th once isnt a miracle (though Sperz and Shitty celebrated pretty hard)
doing it all the time is a massive achievement

[DB10GOONER]

'Desire' as a buzzword gets on my nerves, nobody knows what's in another's head
but I didn't mean it in response to one person, Shearer et al trot it out all the time

Don't agree "desire" is just a buzzword tbh. The reason ex-pro's talk about "desire" is it is often the difference between winning and losing when the chips are down, it adds that extra percentage that pushes one team ahead of another and seperates the winners from the also-rans. They know this as fact.

Similarly the concept of a team "gathering momentum" on the run in to a trophy is often derided by people that haven't played the game at any level. Anyone that has (at any level at all) knows these so called "intangibles" are very much tangible and are often the difference between winning and losing.

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Finishing 4th once isnt a miracle (though Sperz and Shitty celebrated pretty hard)
doing it all the time is a massive achievement

Why? I've already posted my thoughts on that on the link I posted before...

I don't completely dismiss his record of qualifying for the CL, but for me (like many others) it's the last 4-5 years that I take issue with, and in that time I don't see that we've finished above so many good teams that his record should be lauded in the way it is.

- The closest we've finished to United is 10 points behind. The rest of the time it's been more like 20.
- We finished above City the first couple of seasons but it was always going to take their project a few years to kick in (hence the scum finished above them both those times too) and since then they've well & truly pissed off into the distance (somewhat understandably).
- Furry muff we finished above the Chavs a whole one time, in a season when the scum & Newcastle did too and when they were pre-occupied with winning the FA Cup & that other trophy. Fail to see what's so amazing about that!
- People talk about Liverpool but it's universally accepted Benitez & Dalglish pissed ridiculous money away on dross so does Wenger really deserve enormous credit for finishing above them despite being outspent? Seems equivalent to bragging about beating up a retarded one-armed man.
- As for the scum, I don't know the figures but given their wage policy & Levycunt's ability to recoup transfer fees I'd be surprised if they've massively outspent us all things considered. And either way, while we've finished above them so far surely no-one could deny they've considerably closed the gap in that time. Is that really such an amazing achievement of Wenger's?

If we'd finished in exactly the same positions these last 5 years but only the top 3, or top 2 places qualified for the CL, would it still be held up as such a monumental achievement or ascribed such significance by Wenger or yourself? Personally I doubt it, even though it would arguably have been more impressive given we'd have missed out on CL money quite a few of those years. It's only cos a bollock of an organisation like UEFA have expanded the qualifying criteria out to 4th place that it's seen an anything other than finishing 3 places behind the champions. Take out the reward that comes with it and look at it purely as an achievement on its own merits.

You think it's a "massive achievement", I don't, so probably no point taking it any further. Either way, the original underlying point was more to do with what qualities you and anyone else who feels he should stay (was going to label you the Arsene Should Stayers but didn't think that acronym would go down too well ) think he currently offers as a manager.

If you honestly asked yourself what qualities a top class manager should possess how high would "belief" or the ability to produce a team who look good when they play well but don't actually play well that often rank on your list?

[highburyJD]

Discussin 'intangibles' makes for neither good analysis or online discussion
Shearer describes superior timing in winning a header as showing more 'desire'
its meaningless, tell an old lady you will give her a million if she wins a header
and eat her grandchildren if she doesn't, it won't improve her timing or technique

[highburyJD]

Belief is a key ingredient in terms of player transformation
as ever the strengths - making Henry and Weah believe they can be world beaters
are worryingly close to the weaknesses - persisting with Denilson or Bendtner

In terms of managerial qualities Wengers belief is key in making players better
(recently to the detriment of teams, I believe he'll turn that round)

[Its Up 4 Grabs Now]

Belief is a key ingredient in terms of player transformation
as ever the strengths - making Henry and Weah believe they can be world beaters
are worryingly close to the weaknesses - persisting with Denilson or Bendtner

In terms of managerial qualities Wengers belief is key in making players better
(recently to the detriment of teams, I believe he'll turn that round)

So "desire" is just a meaningless buzzword but "belief" is a key ingredient? You put belief forward as one of Wenger's main strengths, up against some truly damning weaknesses. And yet your examples of his belief transforming players are from a decade and more ago. So of the few qualities you could think of in the first place to support him staying you even admit he's got it wrong there too in the time period we're talking about. Baffling.

[highburyJD]

Commentators desire, on pitch desire, is IMO an unhelpful scale
its just fitness or tackling/jumping technique

by belief I mean a consistency of selection, a confidence in decisions in the face of criticism

Emotional or intellectual on pitch qualities are essentially impossible to quantify
off pitch persistence, Wengers belief in and backing off his players is a key managerial strength IMO