Don't totally agree with that, mate. I admit it had an impact but in the wrong way. Driving out those cowardly arsehole wannabe weekend warriors was needed because the game was dead on it's feet. They were a minority ruining it for the majority. The problem was that the media, police and many clubs assumed that ALL fans were lowlifes and decided to totally desensitise stadia and try and get FAMILIES going instead of groups of lads. They out priced (and demotivated) the regular non-hooligan fans (the people that originally made the noise without attacking people as part of a gutless mob) and replaced them with zero-attention-span idiots that sit there playing with their iPhones.denhaaggooner wrote:Just been watching the panarama show about millwall from the seventies then came on here and saw this thread and i had to say what the presenters last words of the show were ! If new regulations on football hooligans drive out the terrace supporters then the cure could be worse than the disease!!! never a truer word spoken .
Stadium atmosphere
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DB10GOONER
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Re: Stadium atmosphere
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denhaaggooner
- Posts: 128
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Re: Stadium atmosphere
I hated all those knobs as much as anyone DB having been on the end of a few beatings by these dickheads and i dont mean Millwall i mean all of the knobs and i am pretty sure the presenter wasnt trying to stick up for the violence , he was talking about the friendship amongst guys , the atmosphere everything that Nick Hornsby talked about in Fever Pitch and he wasnt a hooligan , i just think the government at the time used a hammer to crack a nut . All standing came in after the hillsborough tragedy but how many bradford fans could have escaped if they werent trapped by rows of seats ?
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DB10GOONER
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Re: Stadium atmosphere
Good points, mate. And I agree 100% that the over-reaction by the government and FA definitely affected the match day experience badly. I feel sorry for genuine young Gooners nowdays that missed those times. Not all our younger fans are JCL's of course and the modern sanitised match day they endure is just shit.denhaaggooner wrote:I hated all those knobs as much as anyone DB having been on the end of a few beatings by these dickheads and i dont mean Millwall i mean all of the knobs and i am pretty sure the presenter wasnt trying to stick up for the violence , he was talking about the friendship amongst guys , the atmosphere everything that Nick Hornsby talked about in Fever Pitch and he wasnt a hooligan , i just think the government at the time used a hammer to crack a nut . All standing came in after the hillsborough tragedy but how many bradford fans could have escaped if they werent trapped by rows of seats ?
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Soul of mischief
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Re: Stadium atmosphere
It's price that's the single biggest thing nowadays. Where's your average 16-25 year old going to find a spare 40-60 quid every other weekend.It's those guys who generate the noise. I'm guessing here but I am almost certain that the average age of those in the ground is over 45. At the Bayern match I sat next to an old Irish bloke who said he'd been going since the sixties. He's put in time and effort on the terraces and had more right than anyone to be there. But as some older people tend to do he just moaned the entire match, and then sat in silence when there wasn't anything to complain about. This was in the clock end, where we should be trying to get vocal supporters.
Really think they messed up with the stadium design as well. As much as I don't particularly like the bowl but it can definitely get rocking on (extremely rare) occasions, like against the barcawhores. But I feel that had a proper home end been part of the ground (unfortunately Tottscum seem have learnt from our mistake with their new swamp) it would have helped make atmosphere better. It would simply have given that feeling that there is a 'true' North Bank, not a quadrant of a circle renamed, and had it been there from the start I think people could .
One thing I do have an issue with though is the blanket labelling of all middle class fans. Now I consider myself to be working class, but my kids are (if I am honest) quite middle class. They live and breathe Arsenal. I've seen people mention Nick Hornby here. He is the definition of middle class, went to a grammar school in the home counties and then Cambridge. He's as much a proper Arsenal supporter as anyone on here. We always had middle class fans. Some of my son's mates who's posh parents were not into football have become Arsenal supporters because of their friendship with my son and sing and shout their hearts out when I take them to matches. They caught the bug when young and are very passionate. It's the people who turned to football as adults. They are the problem. They deserve the branding of JCL wankers, not all 'posh' or middle class people.
Really think they messed up with the stadium design as well. As much as I don't particularly like the bowl but it can definitely get rocking on (extremely rare) occasions, like against the barcawhores. But I feel that had a proper home end been part of the ground (unfortunately Tottscum seem have learnt from our mistake with their new swamp) it would have helped make atmosphere better. It would simply have given that feeling that there is a 'true' North Bank, not a quadrant of a circle renamed, and had it been there from the start I think people could .
One thing I do have an issue with though is the blanket labelling of all middle class fans. Now I consider myself to be working class, but my kids are (if I am honest) quite middle class. They live and breathe Arsenal. I've seen people mention Nick Hornby here. He is the definition of middle class, went to a grammar school in the home counties and then Cambridge. He's as much a proper Arsenal supporter as anyone on here. We always had middle class fans. Some of my son's mates who's posh parents were not into football have become Arsenal supporters because of their friendship with my son and sing and shout their hearts out when I take them to matches. They caught the bug when young and are very passionate. It's the people who turned to football as adults. They are the problem. They deserve the branding of JCL wankers, not all 'posh' or middle class people.
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CihanArsenalFC
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Re: Stadium atmosphere
Every single response was very interesting to read.
Seems that safe standing is what most of us view as the biggest issue. My last reading on that subject was a little while ago now, where I think Aston Villa were committed to having this in place for 2013/14 (although I guess now there is a high chance it will not be in the prem). I think it was reported that AFC were "seriously" looking at this, but that there were many technical and architectural issues.
What annoys me most is that we have a stadium which has a lovely roof and the best food and supersize drinks in the business - but this lovely modern stadium only has a maximum of 29 rows in the lower tiers....oh well, too late now. But this is another example of the lack of input from the club on this. AW himself has even said how much of a diffrrence there is between our home and away support - that waa to basically have a dig at the home support (which I would say is fair if the management of the club were doing their job properly on this) - but the management are just as responsible as the fans.
I do like the idea of safe standing. I must admit I fall just short of the terrace era age bracket, so the nearest thing I have experienced to the real thing is reading Fever Pitch (and I guess that my ST is somewhere where standing is not uncommon). I have also been to a fair few games abroad (not just with Arsenal) in countries where the fans are quite hostile. What I notice is that you have real class divides between the stands, so a bit like how the young working class lads would be in NB and CE screaming, and the others in East and West. I think safe standing would help achieve this again, and a few of the replies seem to agree with this to some extent at least. There is also the culture difference where in this country we like tradition a bit too much I feel at times. This acts as a barrier to introducing anything new.
And so we come to "Good old Arsenal". I think a relative of mine had this on vinyl. This may sound like a poor question (especially as it is sung at least once per game where my ST is, although not sung very well) - but are there more lyrics to this than just "Good old Arsenal........we'll win the game"? This chant is just too short and is never repeated more than once. If this was played before games but maybe a slightly slower version (just so it lasts a bit longer) - any thoughts on this?
I guess a team who are doing well would help but I would not agree that the atmosphere was that great even during 2004. Yes we were all cheerful but it did not seem particularly louder than how it is now. My three favourite home games last season were Swansea, Tottnumb, and Milan - all three had great atmosphere and all for different reasons. But what all three had in common were that the team gave their all. If you see players actually trying then you can feel satisfied with them at least. Like when we lost (I think it was 2-1) at the Chavs when the flare was let off, the atmosphere there by the AFC fans was brilliant, and it was because the team were giving it a real go in the second half (although should not underestimate the effect of the flare that was let off, but I won't encourage that on here [but I do love a flares, gives such an epic feeling to the game]).
Some great responses that I enjoyed reading and I think it is important more and more of us share these views and discussions as much as possible - it helps people to be more conscious of this.
I am actually one of those that supports Redaction, as I feel they have the right idea and I also feel without the Redsection the atmosphere would be even more boring. Yes there a few idiots there as well, but I guess every stadium needs the type of people who are less bothered about the game and more about making noise. I would not say these people represent the people running Redaction though, just people that want to join in.
In Turkey, Besiktas apparently give their main supporters group 3,000 tickets free for every home match. This has a huge impact on atmosphere but it also attracts the lowest of the low. I do agree with the feeling that the cure could be worse than the disease, and despite wanting safe standing I have also seen how dangerous it can be (I was involved in a mini crush at a foreign match). I think Nick Hornby also wrote about the same thing in Fever Pitch as well.
So while I am desperate for better atmosphere, I do agree that people feeling safe at matches should be priority (all should be well balanced). There are many things that I feel proud of with our match culture, like the light hearted banter (Wolves fans always comes to mind) and the fact that people with various backgrounds can all feel comfortable at matches (Arsenal are the most diverse and we should feel proud of that).
I am just fed up of the type who have ST's but rarely attend games. These are people who have money and seem to feel a sense of prestige through owning an ST - that has got to be the worst breed of modern day "fan".
Interesting point about middle and working class. I am very much from a working class migrant family, but now I am probably more middle class. I have not lost the passion but am probably a bit more sensible. But none of this has ever affected how much I sing at games (although once I was a guest in Club Level and felt like I was viewed as scum for shouting at the ref). But I do resent the more middle class people who suddenly arrive and tell people to sit down or constantly moan at the team or who boo them off at HT. It is a true reflection of what is wrong with modern football when these people respond to be challenged with "I pay for my seat so I can say what I want". If only banning orders could be issued for such behaviour.
(To Chippy) - haha very vigilant there. My work servers are in the US so maybe that is why it may look like I am from there. I am N5 born and bred, although my blood is imported.
Seems that safe standing is what most of us view as the biggest issue. My last reading on that subject was a little while ago now, where I think Aston Villa were committed to having this in place for 2013/14 (although I guess now there is a high chance it will not be in the prem). I think it was reported that AFC were "seriously" looking at this, but that there were many technical and architectural issues.
What annoys me most is that we have a stadium which has a lovely roof and the best food and supersize drinks in the business - but this lovely modern stadium only has a maximum of 29 rows in the lower tiers....oh well, too late now. But this is another example of the lack of input from the club on this. AW himself has even said how much of a diffrrence there is between our home and away support - that waa to basically have a dig at the home support (which I would say is fair if the management of the club were doing their job properly on this) - but the management are just as responsible as the fans.
I do like the idea of safe standing. I must admit I fall just short of the terrace era age bracket, so the nearest thing I have experienced to the real thing is reading Fever Pitch (and I guess that my ST is somewhere where standing is not uncommon). I have also been to a fair few games abroad (not just with Arsenal) in countries where the fans are quite hostile. What I notice is that you have real class divides between the stands, so a bit like how the young working class lads would be in NB and CE screaming, and the others in East and West. I think safe standing would help achieve this again, and a few of the replies seem to agree with this to some extent at least. There is also the culture difference where in this country we like tradition a bit too much I feel at times. This acts as a barrier to introducing anything new.
And so we come to "Good old Arsenal". I think a relative of mine had this on vinyl. This may sound like a poor question (especially as it is sung at least once per game where my ST is, although not sung very well) - but are there more lyrics to this than just "Good old Arsenal........we'll win the game"? This chant is just too short and is never repeated more than once. If this was played before games but maybe a slightly slower version (just so it lasts a bit longer) - any thoughts on this?
I guess a team who are doing well would help but I would not agree that the atmosphere was that great even during 2004. Yes we were all cheerful but it did not seem particularly louder than how it is now. My three favourite home games last season were Swansea, Tottnumb, and Milan - all three had great atmosphere and all for different reasons. But what all three had in common were that the team gave their all. If you see players actually trying then you can feel satisfied with them at least. Like when we lost (I think it was 2-1) at the Chavs when the flare was let off, the atmosphere there by the AFC fans was brilliant, and it was because the team were giving it a real go in the second half (although should not underestimate the effect of the flare that was let off, but I won't encourage that on here [but I do love a flares, gives such an epic feeling to the game]).
Some great responses that I enjoyed reading and I think it is important more and more of us share these views and discussions as much as possible - it helps people to be more conscious of this.
I am actually one of those that supports Redaction, as I feel they have the right idea and I also feel without the Redsection the atmosphere would be even more boring. Yes there a few idiots there as well, but I guess every stadium needs the type of people who are less bothered about the game and more about making noise. I would not say these people represent the people running Redaction though, just people that want to join in.
In Turkey, Besiktas apparently give their main supporters group 3,000 tickets free for every home match. This has a huge impact on atmosphere but it also attracts the lowest of the low. I do agree with the feeling that the cure could be worse than the disease, and despite wanting safe standing I have also seen how dangerous it can be (I was involved in a mini crush at a foreign match). I think Nick Hornby also wrote about the same thing in Fever Pitch as well.
So while I am desperate for better atmosphere, I do agree that people feeling safe at matches should be priority (all should be well balanced). There are many things that I feel proud of with our match culture, like the light hearted banter (Wolves fans always comes to mind) and the fact that people with various backgrounds can all feel comfortable at matches (Arsenal are the most diverse and we should feel proud of that).
I am just fed up of the type who have ST's but rarely attend games. These are people who have money and seem to feel a sense of prestige through owning an ST - that has got to be the worst breed of modern day "fan".
Interesting point about middle and working class. I am very much from a working class migrant family, but now I am probably more middle class. I have not lost the passion but am probably a bit more sensible. But none of this has ever affected how much I sing at games (although once I was a guest in Club Level and felt like I was viewed as scum for shouting at the ref). But I do resent the more middle class people who suddenly arrive and tell people to sit down or constantly moan at the team or who boo them off at HT. It is a true reflection of what is wrong with modern football when these people respond to be challenged with "I pay for my seat so I can say what I want". If only banning orders could be issued for such behaviour.
(To Chippy) - haha very vigilant there. My work servers are in the US so maybe that is why it may look like I am from there. I am N5 born and bred, although my blood is imported.
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RoscommonGooner
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:01 pm
- Location: Roscommon, Ireland
Re: Stadium atmosphere
WTF?CihanArsenalFC wrote: What annoys me most is that we have a stadium which has a lovely roof and the best food and supersize drinks in the business
I agree with Dan BTW.
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CihanArsenalFC
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:45 pm
Re: Stadium atmosphere
RoscommonGooner wrote:WTF?CihanArsenalFC wrote: What annoys me most is that we have a stadium which has a lovely roof and the best food and supersize drinks in the business
I agree with Dan BTW.
Still trying to grasp sarcasm in written form.
Re: Stadium atmosphere
I voted no hope!
As a couple of others have said, the design of the Emirates is a hindrance when it comes to atmosphere. It will never allow it to build in a way that it could have. Obviously on exceptional occassions anywhere will be noisy but too much noise is lost. The Club Level (or the circle of indifference) cuts the top tier and bottom tier off from each other so that any noise from the upper tier (if there is any, I’ve never sat up there) will not spread to the lower tier.
If there was at least one end of the ground where there was a one tier stand (like the Kop) it would make a real difference. One of those at each end would have been even better. The lower tiers are just too shallow. And I hate the symmetry, its too bland. Every stadium needs a distinguishable home end. No some ''corner'' directly opposite the corner the away fans are in!
The Emirates may be a great venue for concerts and corporate hospitality but as a football venue it is truly awful. It cannot have been a true football man who designed it or approved it. We could have built something like Dortmund have but instead went for something that sums up everything wrong with modern day football. A corporate friendly, money making multi-purpose arena. And we are stuck with this monstrosity for the rest of our lives.
As a couple of others have said, the design of the Emirates is a hindrance when it comes to atmosphere. It will never allow it to build in a way that it could have. Obviously on exceptional occassions anywhere will be noisy but too much noise is lost. The Club Level (or the circle of indifference) cuts the top tier and bottom tier off from each other so that any noise from the upper tier (if there is any, I’ve never sat up there) will not spread to the lower tier.
If there was at least one end of the ground where there was a one tier stand (like the Kop) it would make a real difference. One of those at each end would have been even better. The lower tiers are just too shallow. And I hate the symmetry, its too bland. Every stadium needs a distinguishable home end. No some ''corner'' directly opposite the corner the away fans are in!
The Emirates may be a great venue for concerts and corporate hospitality but as a football venue it is truly awful. It cannot have been a true football man who designed it or approved it. We could have built something like Dortmund have but instead went for something that sums up everything wrong with modern day football. A corporate friendly, money making multi-purpose arena. And we are stuck with this monstrosity for the rest of our lives.
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RoscommonGooner
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:01 pm
- Location: Roscommon, Ireland
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Ah, first time on an internet forumCihanArsenalFC wrote:RoscommonGooner wrote:WTF?CihanArsenalFC wrote: What annoys me most is that we have a stadium which has a lovely roof and the best food and supersize drinks in the business
I agree with Dan BTW.
Still trying to grasp sarcasm in written form.
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Soul of mischief
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:49 pm
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Bang on. It genuinely upsets me that we have no home end. A football ground should be an intimidating place for the oppo. Not nice and beautiful. Look at Juventus, moved from the beautiful stadio delle alpi to their new ground which is a much better home ground. The Emirates would be a decent venue for a neutral match. In my opinion it's not a good home ground. Dortmun's design was the way to go. Four distinct stands, but with the corners filled in so capacity was maximised.Clash wrote:
If there was at least one end of the ground where there was a one tier stand (like the Kop) it would make a real difference. One of those at each end would have been even better. The lower tiers are just too shallow. And I hate the symmetry, its too bland. Every stadium needs a distinguishable home end. No some ''corner'' directly opposite the corner the away fans are in!
.
The point about the upper and lower tiers being separated is also very true. No continuity at all when chants get going. Is it totally out of the realms of possibility that maybe 10/20 years down the line the club redevelops one end of the ground into a proper home end if there is sufficient demand for it. I long for a proper North Bank again. Even if wasn't too loud, it make me feel that the ground is a proper football ground. As long as AW is still manager here I would rather we spend 15 million on doing that than some more mediocre players from League 1.
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Soul of mischief
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:49 pm
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Didn't realise that I literally re worded your last para in my post, making the exact same points. I only read the first half of yours and it set me off.Clash wrote:I voted no hope!
The Emirates may be a great venue for concerts and corporate hospitality but as a football venue it is truly awful. It cannot have been a true football man who designed it or approved it. We could have built something like Dortmund have but instead went for something that sums up everything wrong with modern day football. A corporate friendly, money making multi-purpose arena. And we are stuck with this monstrosity for the rest of our lives.
But still it shows that people do feel strongly about thisRe: Stadium atmosphere
Totally agree mate. Especially about a ground being intimidating. Mentioning what Juventus have done is a great example.Soul of mischief wrote:Bang on. It genuinely upsets me that we have no home end. A football ground should be an intimidating place for the oppo. Not nice and beautiful. Look at Juventus, moved from the beautiful stadio delle alpi to their new ground which is a much better home ground. The Emirates would be a decent venue for a neutral match. In my opinion it's not a good home ground. Dortmun's design was the way to go. Four distinct stands, but with the corners filled in so capacity was maximised.Clash wrote:
If there was at least one end of the ground where there was a one tier stand (like the Kop) it would make a real difference. One of those at each end would have been even better. The lower tiers are just too shallow. And I hate the symmetry, its too bland. Every stadium needs a distinguishable home end. No some ''corner'' directly opposite the corner the away fans are in!
.
The point about the upper and lower tiers being separated is also very true. No continuity at all when chants get going. Is it totally out of the realms of possibility that maybe 10/20 years down the line the club redevelops one end of the ground into a proper home end if there is sufficient demand for it. I long for a proper North Bank again. Even if wasn't too loud, it make me feel that the ground is a proper football ground. As long as AW is still manager here I would rather we spend 15 million on doing that than some more mediocre players from League 1.
You're right about the neutral venue thing too. It actually annoys me seeing Brazil playing there. It being used for Blue and Coldplay etc. is also something that bugs me. I want Arsenal's home ground to be sacred. Unique to us, just like Highbury was.
And I think I remember reading once that the club had the option to make the lower tier at the correct gradient so that it was capable of being converted to a terrace if the option came up in future. They declined, so even if terraces are permitted again in the PL, I wont be holding my breath waiting for Arsenal to be one of the clubs that allows it.
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Villa have said they "support" the idea but they can't introduce it in the ground until it's approved by government, at the minute it remains illegal. This is exactly the reason why Gazidis has said he "supports it in theory" in my opinion. He knows it'll curry favour with the fans but the chances of him having to act on it are slim - he'll be long gone when/if it ever becomes legal.CihanArsenalFC wrote:Seems that safe standing is what most of us view as the biggest issue. My last reading on that subject was a little while ago now, where I think Aston Villa were committed to having this in place for 2013/14 (although I guess now there is a high chance it will not be in the prem). I think it was reported that AFC were "seriously" looking at this, but that there were many technical and architectural issues.
An "anthem" is totally pointless IMO and will do nothing. YNWA comes from decades ago when times were different, the fan base was more working class & people were more willing to take up a song & create an atmosphere. Good though it would be to hear, thrusting Good Old Arsenal or something into AG with the intent to try & create an atmosphere won't make any difference.CihanArsenalFC wrote:And so we come to "Good old Arsenal". I think a relative of mine had this on vinyl. This may sound like a poor question (especially as it is sung at least once per game where my ST is, although not sung very well) - but are there more lyrics to this than just "Good old Arsenal........we'll win the game"? This chant is just too short and is never repeated more than once. If this was played before games but maybe a slightly slower version (just so it lasts a bit longer) - any thoughts on this?
Safe Standing is not dangerous, providing it's properly managed. It's a tighter squeeze than the ridiculously huge seats at AG for sure but it's hardly on a par with the terracing of the 80s.CihanArsenalFC wrote:despite wanting safe standing I have also seen how dangerous it can be (I was involved in a mini crush at a foreign match). I think Nick Hornby also wrote about the same thing in Fever Pitch as well.
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Westfalenstadion at Dortmund is the definition of a perfect football ground in my opinion, ideal in every aspect. However as far as new stadiums go, Juve, Legia Warsaw (& Slask Wroclaw for bigger clubs), are the models that should be adhered to more I think.Soul of mischief wrote:Bang on. It genuinely upsets me that we have no home end. A football ground should be an intimidating place for the oppo. Not nice and beautiful. Look at Juventus, moved from the beautiful stadio delle alpi to their new ground which is a much better home ground. The Emirates would be a decent venue for a neutral match. In my opinion it's not a good home ground. Dortmun's design was the way to go. Four distinct stands, but with the corners filled in so capacity was maximised.
Re: Stadium atmosphere
Give it a fuckin rest you knobhead ; never ever at any point has anyone associated with REDaction suggested they represent anyone but six Arsenal fans who formed the group originally.augie wrote:Redaction.......the great bastion representing Gooners everywhere
This is part of the problem ; fucking dickheads from across the Irish sea, slagging off the atmosphere at a stadium you visit a couple of times a year on a weekend jolly up.
Go fuck yourself
