THE WENGER THREAD

As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
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Titi Gooner for life
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Titi Gooner for life »

Steve_I wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote: Mate, you just joined the long list of previous AKB's that couldn't put up an effective, honest argument in favour of Wenger staying, and instead just started insulting other posters. Whilst some of the WOB's on here also throw the insults about too, they don't do it INSTEAD of posting their point. :roll:
fair comment, my anger has gone but needed to get it out.
Im with Steve_I on this one.

I am far from a sheep, not an AKB but respect the man for what he's done.

I think its rich that the Wenger Out brigade (the Wenger is a c**** brigade - yes thats one of the great managers in the club's history) have the neck to call AKBs "sheep" and say their dilussional and can't see the other side of the arguement.

I would say that dilussional and sheep and not seeing past their own argument applies more so to the Wenger Out brigade than anyone else here!

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FreddyTheRed
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by FreddyTheRed »

Steve_I wrote:
franksav63 wrote:
Steve_I wrote:
flash gunner wrote:I'm still against
-1
Another surprise... :roll: :roll: :roll: What will it take for you to be against the *word censored* that is Wenger? Relegation? :roll: :roll:
I just don't what folk here see. I don't selectively look for detrimental gossip from the daily rags or twatter and use them to support my argument, I don't selectively misquote others I don't ignore things that paint a different picture from the generally conceived one hereabout.

Relegation? maybe but are we near that?, no we bloody aren't and won't be FFS... that is infantile imo to suggest such a thing. I remain in the majority and find this forum sad and misguided and while I among others who refuse to want our manager out, are referred to as sheep, idiots, morons etc, I feel it only right to make the point that on this forum it is clear there is a flock mentality and like attracts like and never was there more an accurate representation of how sheep work that there is here for many.


There that's my rant done.
That's bollocks, if you check almost all Arsenal forums the Majority want him out, just because fans don't chant wenger out on the bowl doesn't mean fans is not fed up with this shit, Sure you will find 1-2 AKB's who defend the indefensible and the AKB's argument is becoming embarrassing when the facts against wenger is on the table all they come up with is sentimental shit. sorry but the tide has turned and the storm is coming.

check out for your self.

http://www.onlinearsenal.com/showthread ... er/page276
http://www.afcforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... &start=560
http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopi ... start=1500

Steve_I
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Steve_I »

FreddyTheRed wrote:
Steve_I wrote:
franksav63 wrote:
Steve_I wrote:
flash gunner wrote:I'm still against
-1
Another surprise... :roll: :roll: :roll: What will it take for you to be against the *word censored* that is Wenger? Relegation? :roll: :roll:
I just don't what folk here see. I don't selectively look for detrimental gossip from the daily rags or twatter and use them to support my argument, I don't selectively misquote others I don't ignore things that paint a different picture from the generally conceived one hereabout.

Relegation? maybe but are we near that?, no we bloody aren't and won't be FFS... that is infantile imo to suggest such a thing. I remain in the majority and find this forum sad and misguided and while I among others who refuse to want our manager out, are referred to as sheep, idiots, morons etc, I feel it only right to make the point that on this forum it is clear there is a flock mentality and like attracts like and never was there more an accurate representation of how sheep work that there is here for many.


There that's my rant done.
That's bollocks, if you check almost all Arsenal forums the Majority want him out, just because fans don't chant wenger out on the bowl doesn't mean fans is not fed up with this shit, Sure you will find 1-2 AKB's who defend the indefensible and the AKB's argument is becoming embarrassing when the facts against wenger is on the table all they come up with is sentimental shit. sorry but the tide has turned and the storm is coming.

check out for your self.

http://www.onlinearsenal.com/showthread ... er/page276
http://www.afcforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... &start=560
http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopi ... start=1500

It may be bollocks to you but not to me. let's all be selective shall we.... http://positivelyarsenal.wordpress.com/

Clash
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Clash »

Steve-I (or anyone else still backing Wenger for that matter) what is it that you are seeing that most here are not ?



Look at what Wenger has had going for him since 2006. He has:

Been given HUGE resources to spend

Been given time and patience by both the board and fans

Been shown respect (to his face) for the most part

Had backing from the media for the most part

Not been interfered with over transfers or wages

Not been interfered with over tactics or style of play

Been paid approx. £50m gross salary



And what has been produced with the aid of these very helpful things ?

The squad has been significantly weakened.

No trophies have been won

Domestic cups are still not being taken seriously enough

Our fans are divided and disillusioned like never before

A significant number of fans are bored sick of the one-dimensional style of play

The players too often look badly prepared or unmotivated ... often admitting to underestimating an opponent

Some players look clueless and even scared in certain areas of the pitch

The club now has a widespread reputation of being a selling club

Many view the club as one with little ambition

Spurs (with a 36,000 capacity stadium and a wage bill of £55m less) have caught up

The club has achieved CL qualification every year

They havent come close to winning the CL in any of those years

The bank balance has massively increased resulting in £123m cash reserves



Am I being selective and missing out all the good stuff? If so, what is it? I am not leaving it out on purpose. I genuinely cannot think of anything.

For everything in that is in that first list, I would expect a lot more positive stuff in the second list. If it is not down to the managers failings, then what is happening that is preventing him from achieving more, taking into account everything he has been given?

That second list is so sparse … surely after 8 years we need to see a change in manager?

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northbank123
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by northbank123 »

Steve_I wrote:
northbank123 wrote: All this has led people on here to conclude that we are only heading one way under Wenger - backwards. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that we look like turning it round under Wenger because we're worse every year.
Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
It's all relative - we're in 'fair shape' compared to West Ham but not compared to where we should be and where we used to be. What could possibly have given you the impression that things may improve under Wenger? We're getting worse ever single season.

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by DB10GOONER »

Steve_I wrote:
northbank123 wrote: All this has led people on here to conclude that we are only heading one way under Wenger - backwards. And there's absolutely nothing to suggest that we look like turning it round under Wenger because we're worse every year.
Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
I suppose I was a bit dissapointed that you resorted to the insults, because up to that point you had at least tried to put your argument across in a sensible and considered fashion. I haven't written you off, everyone is entitled to blow off a bit of steam.

I think we do need a bit of balance on here otherwise it would be the same Wenger out thread just repeated ad infinitum (sometimes it seems that way anyhow! :lol: ) so I like to hear the opinions of those that still support him. I don't agree with them but it's an open forum and all views should be catered for.

We mods do try and cut down on the personal abuse posted by all members as this was the remit handed to us by the owner when we re-opened. Don't be afraid to contact a mod if you feel you are being abused on here and we haven't dealt with it or missed it. The forum is for Gooners, not just Wengerhaters! 8)

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FreddyTheRed
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by FreddyTheRed »

Steve_I wrote: It may be bollocks to you but not to me. let's all be selective shall we.... http://positivelyarsenal.wordpress.com/
A pro Kroenke,Gazidis and wenger blog and anti Usmanov and you don't see the agenda? :lol:

"A single source of hope among all the doom and gloom that tends to dominate the blogosphere. A blog that looks at the big picture and the bright future that our club has even if things in the immediate present might seem tough"

My Day With Ivan Gazidis

"So next time I hear people criticising Ivan, I’ll remember the man I met on saturday, the man who does care about this club, the man who valued my opinion, the man who in a period of restricted financial activity at Arsenal, does his job to the best of his abilities. I will remember Ivan is not a greed-driven financial robot worthy of relentless abuse, he is not the sole representative of all of this club’s problems, he is a human being, and a rather nice one at that. I just hope that if Gazidis’ projections of prosperity on a level playing field come good, people give him the credit and pay him the respect that, I believe, he deserves".

Read more: http://www.goonernow.co.uk/arsenal-blog ... z2Mm1taOqf


That's Bloggers in nutshell. paid to spit this bollocks.

Steve_I
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Steve_I »

FreddyTheRed wrote:
Steve_I wrote: It may be bollocks to you but not to me. let's all be selective shall we.... http://positivelyarsenal.wordpress.com/
A pro Kroenke,Gazidis and wenger blog and anti Usmanov and you don't see the agenda? :lol:

"A single source of hope among all the doom and gloom that tends to dominate the blogosphere. A blog that looks at the big picture and the bright future that our club has even if things in the immediate present might seem tough"

My Day With Ivan Gazidis

"So next time I hear people criticising Ivan, I’ll remember the man I met on saturday, the man who does care about this club, the man who valued my opinion, the man who in a period of restricted financial activity at Arsenal, does his job to the best of his abilities. I will remember Ivan is not a greed-driven financial robot worthy of relentless abuse, he is not the sole representative of all of this club’s problems, he is a human being, and a rather nice one at that. I just hope that if Gazidis’ projections of prosperity on a level playing field come good, people give him the credit and pay him the respect that, I believe, he deserves".

Read more: http://www.goonernow.co.uk/arsenal-blog ... z2Mm1taOqf


That's Bloggers in nutshell. paid to spit this bollocks.

lol read more of it....

Bloggers/forum/internet ... it's all the same and, in the scheme of things pretty insignificant as a whole folk who use such media make up completely inaccurate cross section of general opinion. Highlighted by the fact that I never read the links you gave me because I knew roughly what you must have picked and I picked the most extreme from the 'other' side of the debate I knew about to be 'selective'. The majority view, unfortunatley for all of us that feel passionately about something, is middle of the road and the general opinion is 'MEH' I'm afraid to say.

armchair
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by armchair »

Steve_I wrote: ]Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
I would take issue that you have been abused. Could you link to the posts where you have been abused?

Steve_I
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Steve_I »

armchair supporter wrote:
Steve_I wrote: ]Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
I would take issue that you have been abused. Could you link to the posts where you have been abused?
I said clearly the fact that 'such as me' Armchair. I have not said I was directly abused but there are many posts that abuse 'AKB's' or 'Wengerfans' as I believe is your choice of term. 'such as me' meaning folk who do not want Wenger gone, get grouped as one and there have certainly been abusive terms in use towards such folk. I know you and others don't abuse but some do. Having said all that I care not what abuse I get on 'tinternetz (a cool term that) but I haven't had any 'direct' abuse here no, so I can't link you to such a post and have not said that there were any.

armchair
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by armchair »

Steve_I wrote:
armchair supporter wrote:
Steve_I wrote: ]Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
I would take issue that you have been abused. Could you link to the posts where you have been abused?
I said clearly the fact that 'such as me' Armchair. I have not said I was directly abused but there are many posts that abuse 'AKB's' or 'Wengerfans' as I believe is your choice of term. 'such as me' meaning folk who do not want Wenger gone, get grouped as one and there have certainly been abusive terms in use towards such folk. I know you and others don't abuse but some do. Having said all that I care not what abuse I get on 'tinternetz (a cool term that) but I haven't had any 'direct' abuse here no, so I can't link you to such a post and have not said that there were any.
OK Steve fair nuff.
But it sounds to me like a lot of posts from Wenger supporters and I'm paraphrasing...........
I still think Wenger is the right man for the job. without a coherent argument to indicate why
I believe that he can turn it around. Again, all the evidence points to the contrary
Its the boards fault or the board are equally culpable. Without a shred of evidence to back it up

Then theres your posts saying you dont have to justify your views and that "such as me" get abused without any evidence of said "abuse"

Its all just very vague.
I think you know that Wenger is finished as Arsenal manager. I think deep down you know but you feel that because of what he has done in the past for us that you owe him your loyalty.
I think you feel you owe him loyalty because of what he has achieved in the past not because of what he is capable of achieving in the future. You know Steve.

Just my 2cents

markyp
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by markyp »

has any manager in the whole history of football management gone so long without sucess then gone on to start winning league titles and every other title out there??? the answer is a big fat NO,so why do some people still think that Lord Wenger is gonna be able to do this??its just deluded :banghead:

Steve_I
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Steve_I »

armchair supporter wrote:
Steve_I wrote:
armchair supporter wrote:
Steve_I wrote: ]Yep I can see that's why folk have concluded that but I disagree that things will not improve. I do not feel we are as low as folk make out and in fact are still in fair shape. The article from forbes recently linked in the 'board etc', thread is where I sit in terms of how I think things are and will be.

I've said it before that I do not feel I have to justify why I feel what I feel just because others think I'm wrong when I believe it is they who are wrong. The fact thata such as me get abused and slagged of by many is what makes it so hard to comment on here. The one time I get a little angry and DB immediately 'writes me off with all the other AKBs' as simply as that.

Hey each to his own, uta.
I would take issue that you have been abused. Could you link to the posts where you have been abused?
I said clearly the fact that 'such as me' Armchair. I have not said I was directly abused but there are many posts that abuse 'AKB's' or 'Wengerfans' as I believe is your choice of term. 'such as me' meaning folk who do not want Wenger gone, get grouped as one and there have certainly been abusive terms in use towards such folk. I know you and others don't abuse but some do. Having said all that I care not what abuse I get on 'tinternetz (a cool term that) but I haven't had any 'direct' abuse here no, so I can't link you to such a post and have not said that there were any.
OK Steve fair nuff.
But it sounds to me like a lot of posts from Wenger supporters and I'm paraphrasing...........
I still think Wenger is the right man for the job. without a coherent argument to indicate why
I believe that he can turn it around. Again, all the evidence points to the contrary
Its the boards fault or the board are equally culpable. Without a shred of evidence to back it up

Then theres your posts saying you dont have to justify your views and that "such as me" get abused without any evidence of said "abuse"

Its all just very vague.
I think you know that Wenger is finished as Arsenal manager. I think deep down you know but you feel that because of what he has done in the past for us that you owe him your loyalty.
I think you feel you owe him loyalty because of what he has achieved in the past not because of what he is capable of achieving in the future. You know Steve.

Just my 2cents

Armchair, I'm not going to go trawling through threads etc, but are you telling me you haven't seen the term 'moron' or 'idiot' and many similar such terms used in reference to 'AKBs' (insert term of choice) ? If you really want me to then I will go find some, I know I need not leave this very thread to do so.... hang on a minute...

Skooner
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by Skooner »

It’s been said before but part of which side of the fence before depends on expectations and what is realistic. An often posed question by those of us who want a change of manager is “How bad does it have to get?” and that question rarely seems to get answered by those who are happy for him to stay (apologies if someone has given a direct response in these 150 odd pages). Sometimes I think they don’t answer because the person posing the question goes to the extreme and says something like “Even if he got us relegated”, but the question is valid.

Every season and over a fixed period the club needs to have football targets (financials are completely separate targets but obviously have an influence on what the football targets are). The club are highly unlikely to ever make it public but the conversations should be along the lines of:

• Top four is a must every season
• At least one trophy every three years
• Over a 3 year period don’t average more than a 10 point gap between us and the league champions

I don’t think any of those are unreasonable to expect given our resources but appreciate others may think they should be lower. Either way, if you set realistic targets and they are easily measured, if they are not met then someone needs to be made accountable.

So I guess my question to those that want him to stay is, what objectives would you set the club, and therefore by default Wenger?

clockender1
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Re: Arsene Wenger - For him or against him?

Post by clockender1 »

markyp wrote:has any manager in the whole history of football management gone so long without success then gone on to start winning league titles and every other title out there???
i agree.

clough had it. lost it.

dalglish had it. lost it.

venables had it. lost it. (he managed Barca FFS)

Robson had it. lost it (the England Manager, not that drunken plank).

George Knew. Then he didn't.


football moves on, the game evolves and coaches get left behind.

I do understand it - you need a big ego to be a successful leader, and that ego gives you the confidence to make decisions and follow your judgement. which is great when you're right, but can be a bad thing when you're wrong.

ego for football managers, futures traders and poker players has to be tempered with outside influences - Wenger, like Nick Leeson (who brought down Barings Bank) refuses to believe he's wrong, as Leeson did. so Leeson doubled up his position. and again and again, fully convinced he was right and the singapore market was wrong.

eventually he broke the bank with a eight billion pounds loss from a 20 million pound original loss.

because no one could convince him he was wrong - sound familiar ?

its the same ego that convinces poker players that their 'system' works....

Now, I hate to admit it but there is a reason that Harvard Business School pays Fergie a very large sum of money to lecture there each Summer - he is a very very good manager. not just a football manager - as others have said, he realises the need to freshen up the coaching staff, to change out the medical team, to change his tactics (like dropping rooney for the more mobile RvP last night).

as drunk and red faced obnoxious git that he is, he clearly recognises his own limitations, and the need for teamwork in management.

The Wise Woman doesn't.

neither did, clough, venables, dalglish or George etc.

So its not the board, or the stadium, or City or Chelsea - if it was why are we only 2 points ahead of Everton after 28 games ?

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