Ian Duncan Smith is a total twat

[LDB]

Number 5 is spot on.

The welfare state only owes people basic subsistence - a roof over your head, bills (including medical) covered and enough for food. If you want luxuries you need to go out and work for them, simples.

If you think that's harsh go and live in just about any other country in the world. Only 1 or 2 countries in Europe are more generous then we are.

This just isn't true. According to the OECD we are 11th.

http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD(2012)_ ... 8pages.pdf look at table 4.

This was in 2009. Almost all benefits are being reduced this week, including all of those things mentioned by No.5. I would hazard that a large number of people on here are going to be losing out too!

That is as a percentage of GDP and "social expenditure" seems pretty vague to me, its not referring to the amount of unconditional cash that gets put into peoples pockets just for sitting around having kids. In Germany for example they have a much bigger public pension system which must account for most of the difference between us and them. Edit: which in closer inspection of that table it clearly does!

Either way, it's no surprise to see that every country above us is in Europe - most of whom are in bigger shit then we are!

[LDB]

Ok, so I've had a proper look at that table now..

I count 7 countries that have a higher percentage of GDP that goes to "income support for the working age population". So clearly "1 or 2" was an exaggeration but of the big economies we look to be the most generous - even more then France and shit loads more then Germany and the USA. Of the relatively big economies only Italy and Spain outspend us on subsidising the unemployed - feel free to move over there

[Number 5]

Number 5 is spot on.

The welfare state only owes people basic subsistence - a roof over your head, bills (including medical) covered and enough for food. If you want luxuries you need to go out and work for them, simples.

If you think that's harsh go and live in just about any other country in the world. Only 1 or 2 countries in Europe are more generous then we are.

This just isn't true. According to the OECD we are 11th.

http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD(2012)_ ... 8pages.pdf look at table 4.

This was in 2009. Almost all benefits are being reduced this week, including all of those things mentioned by No.5. I would hazard that a large number of people on here are going to be losing out too!

As ever, I can only speak for me.

From what I get if i recall without looking it up, child benefit is being frozen and child tax credits are going up by 1%. I'll lose £50 of working tax credit. My income tax personal allowance is going up by about £500. Probably gonna balance out about even I'd say. Luckily even though I'm private sector my wage is going up by 2.75%. I went 3.5 years recently with zero private sector increase.

Inflation and cost of living goes up but I don't think its fair for benefits to rise at 3-4% when most of the working people see either a zero increase for their hard earned income or less than inflation rates.

When I got my benefits it did cover all of the rent and council tax. Water, Gas and Electric was all me. As was food shopping. In these areas if you apply yourself you can and will make savings if you get up off your arse. Changing utility supplier for best rates, getting the bogofs and what not in the supermarkets all makes your dollarpounds go further than if you sit on your arse. Same with working I guess.

I don't really keep my finger on the political pulse like you do Chippy, you know my feelings on why Sideshow Bob should be in charge but I personally think a lot had to be done to bring the whole welfare mess into order. And your not gonna be able to please all of the people, all of the time. Well not unless you invent that mythical self lubricating vagina.

But what they are saying IDS should have to do, live on £56.25 a week, can be done. I have done it. Perhaps if I lived in Hartlepool where instead of 9 months, I was looking at 9 years of it, I'd have a different opinion of it all.

[storrmin571]

Cuts Cost Lives.

[Chippy]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2 ... ut-welfare

Jim Royle talks about his life on benefits

[LDB]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2 ... ut-welfare

Jim Royle talks about his life on benefits

Typical lefty stuff in there. Take an entirely rational policy aimed at making quite modest savings and blow it into a moral crusade. I'm surprised he didn't accuse the tories of trying to kill the poor, that's the usual the level of debate the nasty left operate at.

"Who else could have dreamed up the bedroom tax, a policy so stupid it forces people to leave their homes and drag themselves around the country in search of nonexistent one-bedroom flats?"

Doesn't force anybody to do anything you fat moron. If i wanted to rent an extra room in a private property it would cost me an extra 500 quid! When we've got massive queues for social housing it makes perfect sense to try to fill up the ones we have. This isn't the 90s anymore, things need to be rationalised and people need to drop their inflated sense of entitlement and get with the program.

Sorry chippy, dont mean to aim this at you personally but this stuff just winds me up after a couple of pints

[Number 5]

Its all swings and roundabouts. Half of those "lies" I haven't read about.

My example. I have 4 children.

Up until 3 years ago I was living in a two bedroom flat with 3 kids. I knew at least half a dozen people living in three bedroom houses, using 1 bedroom as their kids had grown up and moved out.

What is the right to live in social housing until you die, no matter how many bedrooms you have or need? But there is more than one stream of thought. Mine. Fuck them *word censored*, they should down size so my family can upsize. We need it. Another. Whys that *word censored* keep producing kids when he's got no where to put them?

I'm in a three bed now because we did a tenancy swap with the inlaws.

The people out there who genuinely have more bedrooms than they need and say they can't downsize cos the properties ain't there, I know for a fact would have scores of people lining up to do a tenancy swap.

Other people i know now have to pay the bedroom tax because they are married but sleep in seperate rooms because one of the snores. And so they fucking well should pay it.

Somewhere out there right now a condom is splitting to make a family need another room in about 9 months.

[Top Londoner]

At least the Monarch got a £5m pay rise today.
Useless greedy cow that she is.

[Chippy]

Wouldn't it make more sense to build more social housing, thereby also putting more people back to work? Rather than setting ordinary people at each others throats to pay for the life styles of the rich.

EG IDS employs his millionairess wife as his £15k per year diary secretary, as Top Londoner said the queen got a £5m pay rise today and anyone earning £1m is about to get a nearly £50k tax cut. But hey we're all in it together.

[Number 5]

I look out around my local area in North West London and all that is going up is social housing. Some 100%, some 50%, almost all though has some element to social housing. But I can only see out of my windows so far.

Don't members of parliament vote for their own salaries? That'd be across all parties right? I'd say they're massively over valuing the work they do by the wage they pay themselves. Flipping it back to Cherie Blair and the human rights lawyers getting richer and richer off all those legal aid cases. Its not just the benefit shake up that sees funds appropriated to the wrong places or to those who don't need them

Hypocrisy is everywhere. Top to Bottom. And I think ultimately people will always go with what benefits them or hinders them closest to home. And what politician never looked to exploit that advantage to score a few cheap votes?

[northbank123]

Current salary for an MP is just under £66,000 a year (albeit with a generous expenses package - whether it is abused or not!). Trying to put aside the fact that politicians are not very popular, I'm sorry but that just is not a handsome wage in relation to the importance of the job they do and the complete lack of job security. You look at what top lawyers, top doctors and top businessmen earn and some of them will rack up millions a year. Like them or not, these people are in a very competitive sector and their job is to govern the people and run the country - they're not in it for the money.

Regarding cuts, nobody likes them and people's views are inevitably tempered by their own personal situation. Perfect example: my girlfriend fully supported the bedroom tax until it dawned that both of her grandparents (long separated) would in theory be caught by the measure. Somebody was on the radio yesterday complaining that the cuts to legal aid were a complete affront to justice and describing £2bn as a "small amount". This despite the fact that many of the cuts are to availability of legal aid in cases of personal injury, where if you have a real case you can easily get a reputable firm of solicitors to act on a CFA (no-win no-fee). I am by no means a staunch Conservative supporter but being a politician in opposition is one of the easiest jobs in existence - sitting back and criticising what's been proposed without having to put your neck on the line takes no balls or brains.

[Top Londoner]

I actually am of the view that most politicians are in their profession to further their own interests. Not all, but most.


Also, it is possible to live on fifty odd quid a week, for a single person, but not indefinitely and certainly not comfortably though. 'Other' living costs arise from time to time that have to be met out of the pittance paid.

[I Hate Hleb]

In most of Europe they have a limited time in which the state will support the citizen with certain benefits. When that expires, you are basically left to your own devices. In this country you can stay on the dole and live off the state for most of your life if you so desire (excluding of course those that don't have a choice), and I know many people that have spent the majority of their lives doing exactly that.

[Top Londoner]

I have a younger brother who lives like that Hlebby. He hasn't worked for bloody years now. So long as he has money for ciggies, weed and booze he is happy. He gets free dental work and his med's are free too. A council house with rent a c. tax paid.
It may end soon though.

[LDB]

Out of curiosity how much do people think they could get away with spending on food?

When I was at uni (2-3 years ago) I used to batch cook chilli con carnes and spag bols and freeze a load. I worked it out as costing me about £1-£1.50 per meal. You've then got the added cost of rice/pasta which can't be much more then 10p per serving? I also picked up dirt cheap value range chopped tomatoes and turned them into decent enough pasta sauces by adding a bit of chilli powder or whatever was in the cupboard. Breakfast porridge's are cheap enough, banana's for fruit, dry noodles for lunch.

If I stopped eating out and drinking I could easily live on £53 quid a week and would probably be healthier