THE WENGER THREAD

[Clash]

This question is not meant as a wind-up, I am genuinely interested to know what you lot think:

Is Arsene Wenger the worst thing that ever happened to Arsenal?

No doubt some will find that a laughable thing to ask because of the success and the great memories of his first 8 years. But then take into account what things Wenger has been instrumental in since:


- taking us away from our sacred home ground;

- beginning the slow process of turning us into our less illustrious neighbours (no winning mentality, no pull in the transfer market, putting too much emphasis on how we play, not what we win etc.)

- almost single handedly destroying the infrastructure of the club with his hypocritical socialist wage structure (I say hypocritical because how many socialists do you know who get paid £7.5m a year?)

- overseeing a club go from London's finest to one that without shame charges Grade A prices for a Grade C product

- turning many long term and fully committed fans against their club in a way they would never have thought possible before he came along (with his unconventional methods, conduct, philosophy, deceit, neglect, arrogance, stubbornness, stupidity, naivety, misguided loyalty (towards players not fans) plus his inertia and lack of bottle .


If the original question still sounds ridiculous, then maybe I should rephrase the question and instead ask:

If Wenger is not the worst thing to happen to Arsenal, then who or what is?

Name me someone or something worse ( if you say Kroenke or Gazidis, remember who brought them here) and I will back down.

For me however, nobody else has done anywhere close to the amount of damage Wenger has done. If he'd left in 2006 and we'd stayed at Highbury then Wenger would have been up there among the best things to happen to our club. As it is, his lingering presence and negative influence has proved to be like a poison. One that spreads and gets worse the longer it isn't dealt with.

WENGER OUT!

[arseofacrow]

Mate, in no way is Wenger the worst thing ever to happen to Arsenal. I also think you don't have to prove it by saying who is instead. I can only say that I'm certain that he's not. To find who is may mean going back a long way in history, certainly before my time, or in the present day with Kroenke. Then you can put him down as complicit in certain aspects.

[Clash]

Mate, in no way is Wenger the worst thing ever to happen to Arsenal. I also think you don't have to prove it by saying who is instead. I can only say that I'm certain that he's not. To find who is may mean going back a long way in history, certainly before my time, or in the present day with Kroenke. Then you can put him down as complicit in certain aspects.

Fair enough mate, maybe he's driven me insane or something but I just hate him with a passion now and I cant look beyond that at the moment.

[northbank123]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

[Clash]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

Not the worst manager mate, far from it. The worst thing is what I was asking.

Those glory years 97-06 were amazing. Fantastic memories. But if they resulted in Wenger becoming untouchable and subsequently the power and influence he gained from that killed the club we knew and loved it ... then was it a price worth paying for a golden era?

I'm not sure to be honest, that's why I asked the question. But what I am sure of is that I have never felt this level of contempt towards the club or any of its managers at any time in the past. And given the chance I would take the pre-Wenger Arsenal over the post 2006 Arsenal in every aspect.

[northbank123]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

Not the worst manager mate, far from it. The worst thing is what I was asking.

Those glory years 97-06 were amazing. Fantastic memories. But if they resulted in Wenger becoming untouchable and subsequently the power and influence he gained from that killed the club we knew and loved it ... then was it a price worth paying for a golden era?

I'm not sure to be honest, that's why I asked the question. But what I am sure of is that I have never felt this level of contempt towards the club or any of its managers at any time in the past. And given the chance I would take the pre-Wenger Arsenal over the post 2006 Arsenal in every aspect.

Did mean to say the worst thing, multi-focusing with Ashes and cooking obviously not going well.

[augie]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

Can I just say again that if we compare the squad that wenker inherited when he took over against the current squad that he himself put together then we would have to say that he is dragging us way down
I know some of the pro wenker camp will point out that we are now top 4 every season and that when he took over we certainly were not but I have one word to answer that......money. The prem league is now very much an elitest league that will only have 5 maybe 6 teams challenging at the top so all you need to finish in the top 4 is for one of those teams to have a bad season - back in those days money wasnt such a factor and teams like villa etc could stand toe to toe with the big boys

[northbank123]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

Can I just say again that if we compare the squad that wenker inherited when he took over against the current squad that he himself put together then we would have to say that he is dragging us way down
I know some of the pro wenker camp will point out that we are now top 4 every season and that when he took over we certainly were not but I have one word to answer that......money. The prem league is now very much an elitest league that will only have 5 maybe 6 teams challenging at the top so all you need to finish in the top 4 is for one of those teams to have a bad season - back in those days money wasnt such a factor and teams like villa etc could stand toe to toe with the big boys

Yeah and I'm not saying that this is necessarily a better squad than that was - just that if you're asking if he was the worst thing to ever happen to the club it would make more sense to start by comparing our position now to what it was when he took over - and not to what it was in 2005 or 2006 as some people inevitably will do, even if they don't say so.

[g88ner]

Can I just say again that if we compare the squad that wenker inherited when he took over against the current squad that he himself put together then we would have to say that he is dragging us way down

Really? - dragged us way down?

Wenger arrived in 1996/97.

In 1995/96 Rioch finished 5th; we were knocked out in the 3rd round of the FA Cup by Sheff Utd and lost in the semi-finals of the league cup to Villa (as we'd failed to qualify for europe the season before, we had no european games to play)

In 1994/95 under Graham (before being sacked for taking a bung) and caretaker Stewart Houston, we finished 12th in the league... yes, 12th (losing a whopping 17 games). We did however lose the Cup Winners Cup Final to Zaragoza, but were knocked out in the 3rd round of the FA Cup to Millwall and league cup 5th round to Liverpool.

Augie, how can you honestly say Wenger has "dragged us way down" compared to what he inherited? - he took over a very average team (that only seemed to be able to raise themselves for the CWC), turned the Arsenal into something very special indeed, and has now slowly returned us to a fairly average team.

At worst I'd say we're on par with the 1995/96 team, and at best I'd say we're still a little better. Either way, I wouldn't say there's much in it and certainly not a lot worse, as you're suggesting.

[Clash]

I wouldn't ever use the glory years of 97-2006 to say he deserves an equal period of failure but if you're going to say he's the worst manager ever you HAVE to take into account his period at the helm as a whole and compare positions when we came and now.

Can I just say again that if we compare the squad that wenker inherited when he took over against the current squad that he himself put together then we would have to say that he is dragging us way down
I know some of the pro wenker camp will point out that we are now top 4 every season and that when he took over we certainly were not but I have one word to answer that......money. The prem league is now very much an elitest league that will only have 5 maybe 6 teams challenging at the top so all you need to finish in the top 4 is for one of those teams to have a bad season - back in those days money wasnt such a factor and teams like villa etc could stand toe to toe with the big boys

Yeah and I'm not saying that this is necessarily a better squad than that was - just that if you're asking if he was the worst thing to ever happen to the club it would make more sense to start by comparing our position now to what it was when he took over - and not to what it was in 2005 or 2006 as some people inevitably will do, even if they don't say so.

That's a fair point, although I do think 2006 is a valid cut-off point to use as that is when the ethos of the club seemed to changed. There is no doubt that when we moved stadiums we became something different and for me something hard to like. Its not just an illusion. Too much has changed in too short a space of time.

With regards to money in the game it has gone crazy since 1996. Some Wenger supporters have used the increase in the Arsenal share price since he joined to praise him but surely the way the game has changed and the money Sky TV have pumped in that is the case for everyone? The main thing is the football though and Augie is absolutely right to say the team Wenger inherited was far better than this team is today. Mentality wise they were in an entirely different league and when he took over they were on the up. And I think Rioch deserves a bit more credit than he gets for his one season. He did a lot of the groundwork for Wenger (getting the team passing the ball better etc.) and at the end of 1995/96 I was looking forward to the following season. Unlike now!



I cant blame Wenger for all the ills of the modern game but I don't think Arsenal needed him to come along as much as some people believe. And he hasn't actually achieved anything trophy wise that hadn't been done many times before so those who claim he has taken us to a new level are stretching things a bit.

[Blood_Gooner]

Still against and will intensify further after he presides over yet another horrific summer which cements our place as a mediocre, unambitious laughing stock of a club.


GTFO of our Club, Arsene!

[Clash]

Augie, how can you honestly say Wenger has "dragged us way down" compared to what he inherited? - he took over a very average team (that only seemed to be able to raise themselves for the CWC), turned the Arsenal into something very special indeed, and has now slowly returned us to a fairly average team.

At worst I'd say we're on par with the 1995/96 team, and at best I'd say we're still a little better. Either way, I wouldn't say there's much in it and certainly not a lot worse, as you're suggesting.

Very average team mate?

Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Bould, Winterburn, Merson ... those guys were all champions just 5 years prior to Wenger joining.

Then add the industry of Parlour, the aggression of Keown, the ruthlessness Ian Wright and the majestic Dennis Bergkamp ... I would say that other than centre midfield, that was a team that is way better than average - surely?

[g88ner]

Augie, how can you honestly say Wenger has "dragged us way down" compared to what he inherited? - he took over a very average team (that only seemed to be able to raise themselves for the CWC), turned the Arsenal into something very special indeed, and has now slowly returned us to a fairly average team.

At worst I'd say we're on par with the 1995/96 team, and at best I'd say we're still a little better. Either way, I wouldn't say there's much in it and certainly not a lot worse, as you're suggesting.

Very average team mate?

Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Bould, Winterburn, Merson ... those guys were all champions just 5 years prior to Wenger joining.

Then add the industry of Parlour, the aggression of Keown, the ruthlessness Ian Wright and the majestic Dennis Bergkamp ... I would say that other than centre midfield, that was a team that is way better than average - surely?

Then what went wrong? - at the time, I didn't expect big things from that team. I certainly didn't expect league glory, so perhaps the team wasn't as special as you'd think despite the individuals.

It's a fair reply though, and I admit we had some very good players, but the performances were often average and the fact was, we never looked like doing anything in the league and relied on doing something in the lesser cups to make our season. We finished 5th place in '96, 12th in '95, 4th in '94 and 10th in '93. We were a cup team that couldn't translate that into the league... and I'm not sure the standard in the league was that great either.

By the way, you missed out Ian Wright as well

I'm not arguing that we're better than the squad he inherited but I'm certainly not convinced that what we were achieving immediately prior to Wenger's arrival was sufficiently special to accuse Wenger of dragging us way down in comparison to the team he inherited, that's all.

[Clash]

Augie, how can you honestly say Wenger has "dragged us way down" compared to what he inherited? - he took over a very average team (that only seemed to be able to raise themselves for the CWC), turned the Arsenal into something very special indeed, and has now slowly returned us to a fairly average team.

At worst I'd say we're on par with the 1995/96 team, and at best I'd say we're still a little better. Either way, I wouldn't say there's much in it and certainly not a lot worse, as you're suggesting.

Very average team mate?

Seaman, Dixon, Adams, Bould, Winterburn, Merson ... those guys were all champions just 5 years prior to Wenger joining.

Then add the industry of Parlour, the aggression of Keown, the ruthlessness Ian Wright and the majestic Dennis Bergkamp ... I would say that other than centre midfield, that was a team that is way better than average - surely?

Then what went wrong? - at the time, I didn't expect big things from that team. I certainly didn't expect league glory, so perhaps the team wasn't as special as you'd think despite the individuals.

It's a fair reply though, and I admit we had some very good players, but the performances were often average and the fact was, we never looked like doing anything in the league and relied on doing something in the lesser cups to make our season. We finished 5th place in '96, 12th in '95, 4th in '94 and 10th in '93. We were a cup team that couldn't translate that into the league... and I'm not sure the standard in the league was that great either.

By the way, you missed out Ian Wright as well

I'm not arguing that we're better than the squad he inherited but I'm certainly not convinced that what we were achieving immediately prior to Wenger's arrival was sufficiently special to accuse Wenger of dragging us way down in comparison to the team he inherited, that's all.

Fair points mate and its an interesting question to ask what went wrong (in the league) when we had those players. Personally I would say the centre of our midfield wasn't anywhere near good enough in the time between Rocastle and Thomas leaving and Vieira joining. Graham was to blame for that and it shows how crucial midfield is.

Also regarding our league positions, I wonder if they would have been the same if teams were rewarded with CL football like they are now. Perhaps there was an element of letting places slip towards the end of the season because we were still in the cups? And that led to some misleading final positions? I don't know, maybe that's an excuse.

But as much as the word legend is overused, time has show that a lot of the players Wenger inherited either were Arsenal legends when he came or were on their way to becoming legends ... so there was a strong foundation to work with, even if it wasn't a complete team.

PS And I did mention Ian Wright (missed out the word 'of' after ruthlessness though)

[markyp]

the advent of the CL has put more pressure on AW than GG or Rioch ever had,but with qualification being a basic requisite you can bet that had it been the same back when GG was boss then we still would have qualified every year,there is no way the the pride of GG would have let his Arsenal be just also rans.to finish top four now when we have so much more money than nearly every football team in the whole world should be a formality every year,but with dickwads in charge in turns into a fucking pantomime every season until you've chewed your nails down to the quick.this summers transfer debacle is fast proving that Wenger has lost the plot and CAN NOT take us forward.please just fuck off Arsene and let somebody with some fresh ideas and some self respect take the reigns,i.e Laudrup