The Board-Finance-Kroenke

[Chippy]

Quartz, if you had £150k in the bank and a steady income, but you knew you had to pay £20k a year on the mortgage, would stop spending?

[highburyJD]

we have a 'mortgage' on our stadium
but it's hardly comparable - if our mortage becomes too much we can sell/downsize/rent it out
not really a stadium option.

Trev you haven't really understood the situation or Quartz's post (he's not an 'AKB')
SwissRamble is analysing club figures - it's whether we take those numbers as 'gospel'.
and BTW if the figures are wrong the club is committing a criminal offence.

[Chippy]

we have a 'mortgage' on our stadium
but it's hardly comparable - if our mortage becomes too much we can sell/downsize/rent it out
not really a stadium option.

Trev you haven't really understood the situation or Quartz's post (he's not an 'AKB')
SwissRamble is analysing club figures - it's whether we take those numbers as 'gospel'.
and BTW if the figures are wrong the club is committing a criminal offence.

Jesus you are a contrary *word censored*. The repayments on the loan are c£20m a year we have nearly £200m in the bank. The analogy while not exact is still a bloody good one. Otherwise why are you asking why we are not signing "marquee" players on other threads?

Did you actually read the article? It's clear the club is publishing sensible numbers and the club has a lot of money to spend before this summer's clear out.

[I Hate Hleb]

But isn't the only reason we even have to find £20m from transfers - in addition to all the extra income we generate from the new stadium - that we have had an unbalanced wage bill over the past few years where we have over-spent on wages to underachieving players and manager?

[northbank123]

But isn't the only reason we even have to find £20m from transfers - in addition to all the extra income we generate from the new stadium - that we have had an unbalanced wage bill over the past few years where we have over-spent on wages to underachieving players and manager?

Exactly. Given our broadly comparable squad with Spurs, if our wage bill was as efficient and balanced as theirs the surplus would fund a marquee signing (circa £25m + £100k/w for 5 years) each season.

[Trevor Ross]

we have a 'mortgage' on our stadium
but it's hardly comparable - if our mortage becomes too much we can sell/downsize/rent it out
not really a stadium option.
2
Trev you haven't really understood the situation or Quartz's post (he's not an 'AKB')
SwissRamble is analysing club figures - it's whether we take those numbers as 'gospel'.
and BTW if the figures are wrong the club is committing a criminal offence.

Thanks but I understand both situations perfectly. Quartz is putting forward reasons/excuses for Wenger not spending and you are supporting Quartz. Fair enough it's a free country. I just don't agree, that's all.

[highburyJD]

Trev you haven't really understood the situation or Quartz's post (he's not an 'AKB')
SwissRamble is analysing club figures - it's whether we take those numbers as 'gospel'.
and BTW if the figures are wrong the club is committing a criminal offence.

Thanks but I understand both situations perfectly. Quartz is putting forward reasons/excuses for Wenger not spending and you are supporting Quartz. Fair enough it's a free country. I just don't agree, that's all.

That's not what Quartz said. In fact he responded to you posting this:

Our operating losses have been rendered irrelevant by the huge cash reserves we've been sitting on throughout the trophyless years (that various board members have repeatedly and publicly offered to the manager), and the knowledge that the old, desperate, front-loaded sponsorship deals would soon be replaced by massively more lucrative ones. Wenger makes a profit on player sales bacause he WANTS to, not because he HAS to.

by saying this

I am someone who wants more spent on players, better players, but I disagree with things in your post.
I see that you want more spent on players, so do I, but am not sure what logical point you are trying to make with your further discussion of the finances?

The operating loss cannot be irrelevant.
If we continually make a loss we are in shtuck, so just because we have cash in the bank now, does not mean we can spend the lot.

The welcome money from property sales is almost at an end.etc etc etc -
Our cash reserves at £154M would currently only cover seven years repayments.

so he actually says (more than once) that he wants us to spend
He's just saying

Our operating losses have been rendered irrelevant by the huge cash reserves we've been sitting on

isn't actually the case.
And he's right.

[highburyJD]

But isn't the only reason we even have to find £20m from transfers - in addition to all the extra income we generate from the new stadium - that we have had an unbalanced wage bill over the past few years where we have over-spent on wages to underachieving players and manager?

Exactly. Given our broadly comparable squad with Spurs, if our wage bill was as efficient and balanced as theirs the surplus would fund a marquee signing (circa £25m + £100k/w for 5 years) each season.

each season? We'd very soon have an exponentially hire wage bill.
your star player isn't always your top earner
but he'll quickly expect to be...

[northbank123]

But isn't the only reason we even have to find £20m from transfers - in addition to all the extra income we generate from the new stadium - that we have had an unbalanced wage bill over the past few years where we have over-spent on wages to underachieving players and manager?

Exactly. Given our broadly comparable squad with Spurs, if our wage bill was as efficient and balanced as theirs the surplus would fund a marquee signing (circa £25m + £100k/w for 5 years) each season.

each season? We'd quickly have an exponentially hire wage bill...

1. Clearly this is budgeted for from the surplus if you look at my example.
2. Although this would obviously add to wage bill (no way around that if you want quality) this would then be partially offset by getting rid of player(s) that are no longer needed. In an ideal world as the squad improved year on year we would start moving on players on higher wages for higher fees.

It's a crude example and obviously adding nominal figures to it has sparked your pedantism but the basic point is despite the fact we're held out as a model of economic prudence so often, if our wage structure and ultimately expenditure was at the level it should be we could maintain our extra-cautious current approach and still afford to substantially invest in the squad. Nobody denies that the stadium has been a burden but the £20m a season we're talking about is more than we've been overpaying in wages.

[Trevor Ross]

Trev you haven't really understood the situation or Quartz's post (he's not an 'AKB')
SwissRamble is analysing club figures - it's whether we take those numbers as 'gospel'.
and BTW if the figures are wrong the club is committing a criminal offence.

Thanks but I understand both situations perfectly. Quartz is putting forward reasons/excuses for Wenger not spending and you are supporting Quartz. Fair enough it's a free country. I just don't agree, that's all.

That's not what Quartz said. In fact he responded to you posting this:

Our operating losses have been rendered irrelevant by the huge cash reserves we've been sitting on throughout the trophyless years (that various board members have repeatedly and publicly offered to the manager), and the knowledge that the old, desperate, front-loaded sponsorship deals would soon be replaced by massively more lucrative ones. Wenger makes a profit on player sales bacause he WANTS to, not because he HAS to.

by saying this

I am someone who wants more spent on players, better players, but I disagree with things in your post.
I see that you want more spent on players, so do I, but am not sure what logical point you are trying to make with your further discussion of the finances?

The operating loss cannot be irrelevant.
If we continually make a loss we are in shtuck, so just because we have cash in the bank now, does not mean we can spend the lot.

The welcome money from property sales is almost at an end.etc etc etc -
Our cash reserves at £154M would currently only cover seven years repayments.

so he actually says (more than once) that he wants us to spend
He's just saying

Our operating losses have been rendered irrelevant by the huge cash reserves we've been sitting on

isn't actually the case.
And he's right.

With respect, you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that Quartz didn't want us to spend, that's not the point, I said that he put forward reasons/excuses for Wenger not spending that AKBs would be proud of. And I believe he is clearly wrong, unless everyone else shares Wenger's ultra-conservative, negative attitude to the transfer market.

[QuartzGooner]

[@Quartz] You don't sound remotely like someone who 'wants more spent on players, better players' when you ignore the fact that swiss ramble (if you're assuming him as the gospel) said that we could be due approximately another £40m from property sales. I never mentioned prize and TV money, probably should've done. And our cash reserves could last ONLY 7 years, WOW, I'm amazed you even manage to step outside your front door every day, what with the pollution and the chance of you being hit by a buy a bus. You hero! AKBs everywhere will be proud of you.

@Trevor

First off, having supported us since the mid 1970s, and having posted on here for five and half years, I have literally thousands of my posts stating a desire for better players, and have wanted Wenger to leave his job since the summer of 2011.
Too, some of my letters on ArsenalNewsReview.co.uk lamenting the decline of Wenger.

On raising cash by selling off players:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... and-Wenger

On the decline of midfield:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... ed-the-EPL

On ticket prices rising despite quality of football declining:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... -in-droves


I also refer you to a post of mine on here from April of 2011.

For what it is worth, I was a 'founder' member of a short-lived but well meaning online pressure group called "ArsenalFCNotPlc" that campaigned solely for the club to spend more on players, that was in April 2011!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29259&p=594692&hili ... lc#p594692

I am in no way a member of the AKB "group", as you have criticised me for.

You also should have seen the frustration on here summer 2008 when we failed to buy a defensive midfielder, and how vocal I and others were about that!


Secondly, the club is contractually bound to retain £31M minimum of it's cash reserves to meet repayment requirements on the stadium and other matters.

So that leaves in the region of £120M that could be spent on transfers in and wages, plus win/draw/goal bonuses.

So we could comfortably go out and get the goalkeeper, box-to-box midfielder and striker that I have been asking for the last two seasons!

But without these players, we run a very real risk of failure to qualify for the Champions League group stages, and to qualify in the top four.
That would significantly affect revenues.

I did not purposely "ignore" the possibility of further money from property sales, but other figures I have seen banded about suggest it might only be another £20M at most with some of Arsenal's plans having been turned down by Islington Council over the summer.

So I feel we must spend, but if we do not, then those cash reserves will be needed as ticket, merchandise, TV, and prize revenues fall, plus possibly sponsorship revenues, along with the knock-on decline in value of some of our players should we further wish to sell.

I do not know any fan or commentator who has said we are likely to be in severe financial trouble in the way Leeds, Portsmouth, Bury etc have but I would advocate spending £60M on transfers themselves, plus I guess that would cause a further £10 - 12M or so on wages per season.

That would leave a nice balance in the bank, which considering the dire, and I would say emergency state of the Western World's economy, is a wise move.

I have not put forward excuses for Wenger not spending as you claim.
We could have spent more for a few years now, and spent more efficiently, as HighburyJD has shown.

But as he has pointed out, I really feel that our operating losses are a concern for a club as nominally "professional and powerful" as ours.
I know that we are a few steps behind other clubs in overseas marketing and fanbase, and that the club is slowly taking steps to remedy that.

But we are also guilty of errors: the penny pinching cost cutting in administration and match-day hospitality has affected staff morale to the point that long serving, decent and very capable staff members have moved on, and far from increasing profit by cutting costs, has declined profit because it has affected income by putting off long standing punters who feel let down by the new more spartan and less personal hospitality vibe.

Our marketing team is trying to run before they can walk with some of our overseas ventures. I regret that I am unable to say more about one matter but I heard something over the summer that backed up a hunch I had, that the marketing team are aloof, arrogant and not nearly as versed in actual mechanics of football as they need to be, to the gross detriment of the club.

Trevor, if you are "het up" and want to lay into AKBs online then go ahead, but in me you have very much chosen the wrong target.
As you have just joined the Forum then I welcome you, be aware that this Forum is very much a hang out of people who are frustrated with Wenger and the club and have been for some time.

Most posters here have been members for a good few years, and their online personality, stance on the club and on players, are fairly clear to the other posters.
After coming through a period of insults and near closure last summer, this Forum is back to being a good place to discuss all things Arsenal, and lots more besides (see the Cannonballs section), usually in a way that is respectful.
So please leave out the personal insults from your posts, especially considering you do not know me, nor have you been aware of views held on this site.

By all means make a point, discuss others' reactions to it, but if you want to tear into someone and "label" them as something without a fair hearing or a bit of background reading then you will meet a lot of considered and skilled opposition on here.

@Chippy

As outlined above, we can spend £60M on transfers without much worry.

[officepest]

Some good debate on here tonight lads, interesting reading.

[northbank123]

I like "Arsenal FC not PLC" as a slogan Quartz, always thought it would look good on a banner.

[Trevor Ross]

[@Quartz] You don't sound remotely like someone who 'wants more spent on players, better players' when you ignore the fact that swiss ramble (if you're assuming him as the gospel) said that we could be due approximately another £40m from property sales. I never mentioned prize and TV money, probably should've done. And our cash reserves could last ONLY 7 years, WOW, I'm amazed you even manage to step outside your front door every day, what with the pollution and the chance of you being hit by a buy a bus. You hero! AKBs everywhere will be proud of you.

@Trevor

First off, having supported us since the mid 1970s, and having posted on here for five and half years, I have literally thousands of my posts stating a desire for better players, and have wanted Wenger to leave his job since the summer of 2011.
Too, some of my letters on ArsenalNewsReview.co.uk lamenting the decline of Wenger.

On raising cash by selling off players:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... and-Wenger

On the decline of midfield:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... ed-the-EPL

On ticket prices rising despite quality of football declining:

http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/inde ... -in-droves


I also refer you to a post of mine on here from April of 2011.

For what it is worth, I was a 'founder' member of a short-lived but well meaning online pressure group called "ArsenalFCNotPlc" that campaigned solely for the club to spend more on players, that was in April 2011!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29259&p=594692&hili ... lc#p594692

I am in no way a member of the AKB "group", as you have criticised me for.

You also should have seen the frustration on here summer 2008 when we failed to buy a defensive midfielder, and how vocal I and others were about that!


Secondly, the club is contractually bound to retain £31M minimum of it's cash reserves to meet repayment requirements on the stadium and other matters.

So that leaves in the region of £120M that could be spent on transfers in and wages, plus win/draw/goal bonuses.

So we could comfortably go out and get the goalkeeper, box-to-box midfielder and striker that I have been asking for the last two seasons!

But without these players, we run a very real risk of failure to qualify for the Champions League group stages, and to qualify in the top four.
That would significantly affect revenues.

I did not purposely "ignore" the possibility of further money from property sales, but other figures I have seen banded about suggest it might only be another £20M at most with some of Arsenal's plans having been turned down by Islington Council over the summer.

So I feel we must spend, but if we do not, then those cash reserves will be needed as ticket, merchandise, TV, and prize revenues fall, plus possibly sponsorship revenues, along with the knock-on decline in value of some of our players should we further wish to sell.

I do not know any fan or commentator who has said we are likely to be in severe financial trouble in the way Leeds, Portsmouth, Bury etc have but I would advocate spending £60M on transfers themselves, plus I guess that would cause a further £10 - 12M or so on wages per season.

That would leave a nice balance in the bank, which considering the dire, and I would say emergency state of the Western World's economy, is a wise move.

I have not put forward excuses for Wenger not spending as you claim.
We could have spent more for a few years now, and spent more efficiently, as HighburyJD has shown.

But as he has pointed out, I really feel that our operating losses are a concern for a club as nominally "professional and powerful" as ours.
I know that we are a few steps behind other clubs in overseas marketing and fanbase, and that the club is slowly taking steps to remedy that.

But we are also guilty of errors: the penny pinching cost cutting in administration and match-day hospitality has affected staff morale to the point that long serving, decent and very capable staff members have moved on, and far from increasing profit by cutting costs, has declined profit because it has affected income by putting off long standing punters who feel let down by the new more spartan and less personal hospitality vibe.

Our marketing team is trying to run before they can walk with some of our overseas ventures. I regret that I am unable to say more about one matter but I heard something over the summer that backed up a hunch I had, that the marketing team are aloof, arrogant and not nearly as versed in actual mechanics of football as they need to be, to the gross detriment of the club.

Trevor, if you are "het up" and want to lay into AKBs online then go ahead, but in me you have very much chosen the wrong target.
As you have just joined the Forum then I welcome you, be aware that this Forum is very much a hang out of people who are frustrated with Wenger and the club and have been for some time.

Most posters here have been members for a good few years, and their online personality, stance on the club and on players, are fairly clear to the other posters.
After coming through a period of insults and near closure last summer, this Forum is back to being a good place to discuss all things Arsenal, and lots more besides (see the Cannonballs section), usually in a way that is respectful.
So please leave out the personal insults from your posts, especially considering you do not know me, nor have you been aware of views held on this site.

By all means make a point, discuss others' reactions to it, but if you want to tear into someone and "label" them as something without a fair hearing or a bit of background reading then you will meet a lot of considered and skilled opposition on here.

@Chippy

As outlined above, we can spend £60M on transfers without much worry.

I have followed this forum since day one, have read many of your posts and am perfectly aware of your views and standpoint. I know you're not an AKB and I didn't 'label' you as one in any of my posts, I simply said that what you were saying in these particular posts would delight AKBs everywhere as you were very much focusing on the negative aspects of spending rather than the positive ones (ie Spending=better players=trophies=higher revenue streams=more spending). Re the 'personal insults', I am aware of this forum's code of conduct and the issues when it shut down for a while last year, and I was certainly guilty of sarcastic mocking yesterday (admittedly not an attractive debating technique, and one which I try to keep to a minimum) but I believe it falls well short of being personal or even particularly insulting. If however you were genuinely offended, I apologise unreservedly. I haven't registered to post on here previously as I've not had the time or opportunity to continually post on often fast moving topics (and I still don't) but I feel this is a massive season for the club, and with Wenger having already proven that no matter how much Gazidis attempts to coax/bully him into spending before the season starts he will never ever change, I feel that I must do my bit in trying to help rid the club of Wenger before he does any more damage to The Arsenal.

[northbank123]

I remember Edelman saying a few years back that Dein was a mouthy *word censored* (to paraphrase ) but he was integral to our success as he pushed Edelman and Wenger. I don't hold Dein out as the magical solution to our board problems but we need a figure like him around - somebody who's desperate to succeed on the pitch and actually wants to see the club sign players.

Edelman basically said Dein badgered him about money to spend during the stadium planning and building, and pushed the cautious Wenger to sign new players and improve the squad even when he was reluctant. Chances are he was rebuffed by both more often than not but undoubtedly many of the occasions where his persistence won them over were key to our success.

It's a far cry from the situation now where the board is happy as long as we're delivering financially and nobody cares whether or not we sign anyone. And without anybody to push him the already-cautious Wenger has retreated more and more each year.

We could sack say Lord Harris of Peckham and Sir Chips Keswick and despite having a board to rival our wafer-thin squad it wouldn't make much difference given that Wenger does half of the board's job for them and they're happy to let him do so.