THE WENGER THREAD

[dPmunky]

I think I'm just as angry at myself for actually hoping, dare I say believing, back in late december, that we might actually pull this off. I'm so tired of this, every year! It's clear we MUST be able to beat the top 5 teams to win the league and it is just as clear that Wenger is not capeable of doing it.

[turricaned]

Some more worrying comments from him today. Talking about how we need to up our attacking prowess to match City and Liverpool

It could also mean he's looking at strikers for next season. The problem with hating on the guy (to the extent that people have come up with "AKB" to shout down anyone who isn't hating), is that you end up dismissing what the guy says out of hand before you look at what it could mean.

Also managed to squeeze a typical Wengerism in there about us showing great stamina this season. Which was especially laughable given that he was talking about the title race in terms of a marathon.

Given that Liverpool and Everton have very obviously begun to flag in the last four games of the PL, I'd say he's got a point. They're going to flag much earlier next season as a result of being in Europe.

.Now our 17th season in it and the best we have done is 1 final in that time,while the chavs and the victims have won it despite not being in it 17 yrs in a row

They got much easier draws than we did the years they won it. We got knocked out by a Barca who were reigning supreme at the time.

United's wheels fell off. had they not, we'd be 5th most likely.

Man U's wheels were always going to fall off this season, because Fergie got demob-happy in the last few years of his tenure and failed to replenish his squad properly - why else do you think he was so dead set on talking Scholes out of retirement for one last season? Predictably of course, the press and fans blame the whole situation on Moyes, who despite being ineffective, did get handed a poisoned chalice.

I'd be very surprised if Chelsea don't have similar issues next season, given that Cole's been dispensed with, Terry's looking doubtful, Eto'o is beginning to flag in terms of consistency and Lampard has only signed on for one more season.

I think I'm just as angry at myself for actually hoping, dare I say believing, back in late december, that we might actually pull this off.

With all due respect, it wasn't that likely - the squad this season could be brilliant with everyone fighting fit, but Giroud and Poldi need a strong midfield to get the best out of them. The injuries were too much.

I'm so tired of this, every year! It's clear we MUST be able to beat the top 5 teams to win the league and it is just as clear that Wenger is not capeable of doing it.

Having a fully-fit squad to face them would have been nice - and I feel sure we beat LFC to get to where we are now in the FA Cup.

[mcdowell42]

Wht about the other 15 yrs in the cl what is the excuse for them.Maybe if we had come top.of our group instead of always conspiring to finish 2nd we too might have got easy draws,but of course that has nothing to do with Arsene

[armchair]

Classic Wengerite spin and prevarication from the new member turricaned.
Just a pity he didnt read the whole thread first cause every one of his tired arguments have been discussed on this thread for six (6) years ffs. And the issues surrounding them have been building from before that.

Starts off with my old favourite (and I paraphrase)......
"I'm not an AKB but........"

Then goes on reading from the Wenger apologists handbook with gems such as..........

"Who could possibly replace him? ✔
Its because of the new stadium ✔
Wenger has done a remarkable job under the obvious restrictions ✔
The transfer market is dire ✔
We couldnt afford the dizzying transfer fees ✔
Wengers hands were tied ✔
Be careful what you wish for ✔
We could end up spending loads of money and it not working out ✔
Its Chelsea and Abramovic - we cant compete ✔
Its City and the Sheiks - we cant compete ✔
Our team played more games ✔
We had players injured ✔
Our record breaking defeats/capitulations dont matter because Chelsea, Liverpool and... Everton were "humbled by Palace" ✔
Its ok cause every time we get dicked we usually win the next game. Thats mental strength ✔
We will buy in the next window ✔
Give him another season..............or two✔ "

And just to ice the Wenger suger cake, the old - "Who could possibly replace him?" one more time...

turricaned. I suggest you read through this thread. You will find that every one of your points absolving Wenger of anything at all to do with Arsenals failure to win anything for almost a decade has been discussed and shown up to lack any foundation or reasonable argument and be just what they are.........
A defence of Wenger because of a fear of change or the unknown and a degree of sentimentality.

[northbank123]

Despite painting yourself as a moderate you are probably the most ardent Wengerite I have ever seen on this forum. To the extent I struggle to understand how you can function in everyday life without him telling you how to think.

The comment about stamina is ridiculous. Top in January, out of it by mid-March. How is that good stamina? By comparing us to Everton you're completely buying into his way of thinking, we shouldn't be stacking ourselves up against them. As for Liverpool, they have blown it but after 36 games were still in with a very good chances of winning the title. That's far more stamina in the title race than we've shown in the last 10 seasons.

And maybe those comments do mean he's going to sign a class striker. Although it's more likely you've just fallen out of a time machine from 2008 and you can't believe that such a good manager could possibly make the same mistakes in the transfer window again?

Honestly, if after watching the mauling at Anfield or Stamford Bridge somebody in the pub had declared that Arsenal were 'too cautious' would you think "what an insightful point, well done that man" or "he ought to be sectioned, has he not just watch us get raped repeatedly?"?

[turricaned]

turricaned. I suggest you read through this thread. You will find that every one of your points absolving Wenger of anything at all to do with Arsenals failure to win anything for almost a decade has been discussed and shown up to lack any foundation or reasonable argument and be just what they are.........

I've been flicking through, and mostly what I'm seeing is a lot of vitriol and not a great deal of thought. We're going to be going into next season with a much stronger squad - especially if we get some more strike power and a bit more defensive depth. Man U aren't going to be much better than they were this year unless they seriously re-shape the squad, Chelsea are going to be losing at least one key player, maybe more (certainly from the regular starting XI), and the Merseyside teams are going to be in Europe and having to work much harder. Man City will retain their strength, but will be artificially limited in the CL by the UEFA slapdown - and their away form this season has not been particularly convincing in any case.

I would appreciate it if you didn't assume I worship the ground AW walks on though, because I don't in the slightest - I'm just not so blinded by the "no tactics/no dossier" issue that I think our problems this season have been all of his making.

[turricaned]

Despite painting yourself as a moderate you are probably the most ardent Wengerite I have ever seen on this forum.

See above. I'm a little saddened that it's come to insults after less than 24 hours of discussion though.

The comment about stamina is ridiculous. Top in January, out of it by mid-March. How is that good stamina?

As would any of the other top 4 teams have been if they'd lost their most effective players (and the effective nucleus of the squad) to injury in that exact same time period.

And coming back from the 5-1 Anfield drubbing to convincingly knock LFC out of the FA Cup within a fortnight definitely shows that the squad has spirit.

By comparing us to Everton you're completely buying into his way of thinking, we shouldn't be stacking ourselves up against them.

No - the fact is that Everton have been the contenders for 4th or 5th since the start of the season, not that I'm stacking us up against them. I reckoned we might be able to challenge for 2nd in December, but was highly doubtful about the title.

As for Liverpool, they have blown it but after 36 games were still in with a very good chances of winning the title. That's far more stamina in the title race than we've shown in the last 10 seasons.

Were they playing in Europe this season?

..and you can't believe that such a good manager could possibly make the same mistakes in the transfer window again?

I say again, the previous transfer window was the very first in 10 years in which his spending was not constrained by the board. Unfortunately the pickings were slim.

Honestly, if after watching the mauling at Anfield or Stamford Bridge somebody in the pub had declared that Arsenal were 'too cautious' would you think "what an insightful point, well done that man" or "he ought to be sectioned, has he not just watch us get raped repeatedly?"?

Depends what he meant by "cautious" - in terms of attack, there's no getting away from the fact that we lacked teeth in the opposition penalty area with the midfield short of players like Ramsey and Özil. We've got Steve Bould - one of the original Back Four - supposedly coaching the defence, so why we fell apart at the back during those matches I don't understand.

[armchair]

turricaned. I suggest you read through this thread. You will find that every one of your points absolving Wenger of anything at all to do with Arsenals failure to win anything for almost a decade has been discussed and shown up to lack any foundation or reasonable argument and be just what they are.........

I've been flicking through, and mostly what I'm seeing is a lot of vitriol and not a great deal of thought. We're going to be going into next season with a much stronger squad - especially if we get some more strike power and a bit more defensive depth. Man U aren't going to be much better than they were this year unless they seriously re-shape the squad, Chelsea are going to be losing at least one key player, maybe more (certainly from the regular starting XI), and the Merseyside teams are going to be in Europe and having to work much harder. Man City will retain their strength, but will be artificially limited in the CL by the UEFA slapdown - and their away form this season has not been particularly convincing in any case.

I would appreciate it if you didn't assume I worship the ground AW walks on though, because I don't in the slightest - I'm just not so blinded by the "no tactics/no dossier" issue that I think our problems this season have been all of his making.

Jam tomorrow eh turricaned......... Yet another from the Wenger supporters handbook.
We can only judge Wenger on the evidence of transfer windows past and your asertion that "We're going to be going into next season with a much stronger squad" is not based on anything tangible, rather a blind hope that Wenger will change his spots. I dont share your blind faith. That has been taken from me.

And you accuse me of assuming you "worship the ground AW walks on" which I havent, but this accusation is pretty typical of Wenger supporters in my experience - making stuff up to further their non-argument or completely disregarding facts that dont fall in line with their Wenger supporting agenda.

But hey, kick on. You're entitled to your opinion and I'll fight to the death for your right to hold i t......

[mcdowell42]

Turricaned if you think being called an ardent wengerite is an insult you should have been on here when US Marty and Babatunde were posting.

[turricaned]

If you want to criticise my article on dossiers at least have the courtesy to name me.

I wasn't criticising your article, I was responding to somebody else - and you're not the first person to bring the issue up!

In fact, I did read your article last night and found it quite interesting - though I must admit it seemed a little flavoured by an assumption of arrogance on AW's part (especially the part about "He believes that too many instructions clutter a player’s mind, leading to hesitation as a player tries to remember these instructions"). My interpretation (and, I believe, Cesc's) has it slightly differently, namely that drilling specific tactics into players and following them rigidly means that if the opposing team doesn't play the way you expect them to, you're going to be at a massive disadvantage and unable to make significant changes until half-time. By schooling the players to think for themselves tactically and providing a more general approach from the top down, then your team will be able to react more quickly and fluidly if the pattern of the game changes from the expected dynamic. From that perspective, Wenger would in fact be putting *more* faith in the minds of his players, not less.

The problem with this (and what I think Cesc was getting at a while back) is that such an approach relies on a level of experience within the squad such that they can learn from each other which, as a result of the "hiring young" policy instituted with the stadium cost spending limit, we didn't really have. Cesc talked about learning tactically from other *players* at Barca - not from coaching/management as such.

And without dossiers or better tactics we have been smashed to embarrassing smithereens by Man City and Chelsea and Liverpool.

Not having our best attacking midfielders (in a squad that is heavily reliant on attacking midfield play) had rather a lot to do with it as well IMO.

Watch the goals in recent games against Hull and the Toon - there was some beautiful stuff going on, and it was bloody effective. It would have been just as effective against CIty, Chelsea and LFC if Ramsey, Özil and Poldi had all been fit for those matches.

Our fullbacks are usually left too high up the pitch to contribute to defence.

Then we should be having a word with Steve Bould, who was brought in specifically to sort the defence end of things out. It's fair to point out that Chelsea and LFC also thought they could get away with a high line against Palace, and both sides got a bloody nose because of it, as did Everton. It would appear that Tony Pulis makes better dossiers than Rodgers, Martinez and -yes- even Mourinho.

Our one regular striker of note in Giroud is far too often isolated and lacks others making runs for him, despite being a back-to-goal man who needs to act as a pivot for others.

Which is why we have such a strong attacking midfield setup and why we can be quite badly exposed without them.

[SteveO 35]

Turricaned - can I just say 'welcome' and fair play to you.

By the way, do you like BBQs because there's a big one planned for the Summer when Arsene signs his new deal.

Pay no notice to Rodders and Augie - they obviously forgot what happened to Portsmouth and Leeds

[QuartzGooner]

Turricaned

You have also mentioned an oft-brought out argument about "If all our players had been fit we would have won something."

I do not consider this a viable argument.

There is little to no chance that our squad, competing in four trophies, will have no injuries or suspensions during a season.

It is up to Wenger to make the squad capable of handling injuries and suspensions and winning trophies.
He has not done so since 2005.

We also have ongoing problems with the recuperation of players from injury.
Again, Wenger's responsibility.

Neither do I consider arguments about Chelsea or Man Utd having easier draws than us in Europe to allow for their success.
They won it because they were better than us!

There is no allowance for 'Easier Draws" in a competitions such as the Champions League. It is the best clubs in Europe, at some point you will have to face the best. You are either good enough or not.

As for tactics/dossiers, you say "By schooling the players to think for themselves tactically and providing a more general approach from the top down, then your team will be able to react more quickly and fluidly if the pattern of the game changes from the expected dynamic."

That is just your theory.
It is proven by many other managers that if players are trained in organisation and team shape, things to resort to when the "Expected dynamic" does not happen, then they have something to fall back on.
Since the players of ours who were trained in such a way have left we have not won a thing.
Funny that!

[armchair]

Turricaned - can I just say 'welcome' and fair play to you.

By the way, do you like BBQs because there's a big one planned for the Summer when Arsene signs his new deal.

Pay no notice to Rodders and Augie - they obviously forgot what happened to Portsmouth and Leeds

Dont forget Rangers and also the money wasted by Spurs. We cant be doing with that now, can we.............?

[turricaned]

Jam tomorrow eh turricaned......... Yet another from the Wenger supporters handbook.

And every supporter of every other PL team who doesn't get the title, no?

We can only judge Wenger on the evidence of transfer windows past

The difference being that in "transfer windows past" - for the last 10 years in fact - he's had to contend with strict spending limits set by the board at a time when teams like Chelsea, Man City, Real and Barca have been given blank chequebooks to buy top-drawer players, even if they end up spending half the time on the bench (e.g. Thierry Henry at Barca)

and your asertion that "We're going to be going into next season with a much stronger squad" is not based on anything tangible, rather a blind hope that Wenger will change his spots.

Actually, there is method to my thinking - for one thing, Özil has come back from injury seemingly far more in tune with the squad. At the beginning of the season, he seemed to be completely relying on Walcott's pace in terms of placing the ball down field (unsurprising really, as he wasn't there for pre-season). Now he seems to be able to generate plays directly to Ramsey, Giroud and Poldi with equal precision - having two attacking midfielders with that kind of nous is going to make a big difference. If we can get a second pacey striker to bolster Walcott, we'll have a much more dynamic attacking setup.

And you accuse me of assuming you "worship the ground AW walks on" which I havent, but this accusation is pretty typical of Wenger supporters in my experience

That's the problem with entrenched opinions - both sides end up assuming the other only thinks one way, and that's a depressing state of affairs.

[markyp]

turricaned you forgot to mention that we could end up like Leeds and Pompey