As we're unlikely to see terraces again at football, this is the virtual equivalent where you can chat to your hearts content about all football matters and, obviously, Arsenal in particular. This forum encourages all Gooners to visit and contribute so please keep it respectful, clean and topical.
Speaking for myself, Wenger has had three 'Second chances" -
- The MKIII Wenger team, failure of his 2007 - 2008 team to win the title, but it came close.
- The MKIV Wenger team, failure of the transitional 2008 - 2011 period - one I will associate with Diaby, Denilson, Bendtner etc.
- The MKV Wenger team, 2011 - 2014 failure of his Cesc and RvP lead team to win the title.
We are now in his MKVI Team, what I will provisionally call "The Alexis Sanchez Team".
If we did win the title in 2016 or 2017, then no, I would not want Wenger to continue beyond the summer of 2017.
For all the reasons I outlined in my previous post, but mainly, that it is not just about players, it is about Wenger's tactics and training routines.
I wanted him gone summer 2011, but am realistic enough to know that under Stan Kroenke, Wenger will be in place until the end of his contract summer 2017, barring a scandal.
We might get a new assistant boss, or head coach, but Wenger on £7 - £8M per season, is not running off.
We have had pro-Wenger types on here before, few of them last long.
This Forum is 90% "Wenger Out," has been heading that way for six seasons.
Particularly since summer 2011.
Not through blind prejudice, but through a gradual process of debate, discussion and argument.
You make some decent points to be fair. However, I think counting the years 2007 - 2010 as a second chance is a bit harsh. There was always going to be a transitional period so soon after the breaking up of the invincibles, moving to the emirates etc. also, you mention the cesc rvp lead team. Fabregas left for Barcelona at his own request, just as he was coming into his prime. Any team would miss a player as important as he was for us. He left a huge hole in midfield which we still haven't found the right player to fill. Then van pisses off to Manchester after only one good season for us. Obviously we should ideally have more depth to the squad so we can cope with a few players leaving. But these guys were (are) world beaters, and any team would miss them. We also lost a lot of other key players around this time. Ones like Nasri who left purely for money. Not much wenger can do about a lot of this, in modern football if a player wants to go, they go. These players left for their own reasons, ranging from wanting to play for their boyhood heroes, to being plain greedy
The Wenger you refer back to ceased to be a football force in the summer of 2008.
FAILURE?
Why is it harsh to count 2007 + a failure?
We did not win.
The Invincibles won the league May 2004.
So our 2007 - 2008 team had three seasons of rebuild.
Our budget was cut, but not to the extent we were paupers.
We had less to spend on transfers, but we spent high on wages.
Cesc, Hleb, Flamini and Rosicky were a very good midfield...we had a good Sagna, a pacy Walcott and Adebayor had his good season, yet still were not good enough.
Why did Henry, Cesc, RvP and Nasri leave when they did?
Because they knew they were not winning the title again under Wenger at Arsenal.
You have argued my point for me.
REPLACING PLAYERS?
"Any team would struggle to replace them?"
Not true.
Chelsea got rid of Mata and Luiz, look where Chelsea are now.
OTHERS HAVE BOUGHT BARGAINS WE FAILED TO BUY:
We failed to make cutting edge signings for too long.
Southampton have assembled a decent squad on a budget, why did we miss out on Mane?
Other decent players have gone to clubs out of the top four....
Why did we miss out on Bony yet Swansea got him?
Or Coutinho?
Yet persist with Bendtner?
SUMMARY - WENGER IS NOT THE WAY FORWARD:
The only defences of Wenger I consider are that his transfer budget was cut 2005 - 2008, and that he lost the sounding board, scouting, negotiating and networking skills of Dein in 2007.
Against him?
He took too long to bring in a replacement for Dein and has made multiple poor in-game decisions, most infamously he inexplicably took off Pires in the Champions League final.
Wenger tipped the balance too far to youth, too far away from power players in favour of smaller framed technical players, over-played players when fatigued, allowed a sloppy defence, allowed sluggish movement with too much sideways passing and slow build up play, even when he saw that fast power football was exciting and successful 1998 - 2004!
Hill-Wood did not make those decisions, Wenger did.
Wenger is in his job because he delivers top four football and makes money for Kroenke, but his title winning years are long gone.
OK, done my bit, now some other Forum regular please put forward your anti-Wenger arguments.
I find it funny that everytime a player left us many especially AKB think they left for greed or any other reason except to win titles. It's the same thing as they will blame anything and everything for our failure except blaming Wenger.
Cloaked Gooner...
As ludicrous as this may sound this is not an anti Wenger forum, it is not a Wenger bashing forum.. This is a pro Arsenal forum and the vast majority on here , myself included, believe that Arsenal FC with Arsene Wenger as manager is on a repeat cycle to nowhere..
We recently dug up some old posts here from back in the day. Most at that time were willing to show patience with Wenger as possibly a mark of respect for his achievements. Now time has eroded that patience and replaced it with anything from frustration to hate. That is not our fault, we are loyal Arsenal FC fans , we want our club to compete in the top two competitions open to us (Premier and Champions Leagues). Yes we moan about those two competitions for their financial influences on the game we love, but when we are in them we do actually want to win them. What I do not want ,or more accurately, care for anymore is the worshiping of a European Competition by my club because of said financial benefits while showing little capability and less desire to actually attempt winning it.
I now support a football club that in the manager's own words sees finishing fourth in a two or three horse race as an achievement, I now support a football club where players with any ambition up sticks and leave. I have slaughtered them as mercenaries on this forum , but I support Arsenal they don't in reality. They are footballers , maybe the want bigger pay packets elsewhere but they also want success and honours that are not coming to London N5 anytime soon. I and we can console , or have consoled ourselves in the past, that their (former players) heads were turned by Arab or Russian money or by Spanish whore masters. Wrong in reality and equally in reality we know it and in fact if Sanchez and Ozil depart this Summer we will really know why. I would imagine if both of the above do leave we will be a lot less critical of them.
I now support a football club who's manager cannot see the most basic of failures on a football pitch from ten yards where I and everyone else can see it from a stand seat or a TV screen. For example , Danny Welbeck at Tottenham , honest lad Danny I have great time for his endevour . But his manager said "Danny , rights side of midfield today"...That was a hole filled on the pitch by Arsene..next player please. So early in the game despite leading we were getting hammered , a young fullback was getting exposed and overloaded. I saw it in my Dublin living room staring at the TV, only one person didn't and he was the only one that mattered. That is the manager of Arsenal FC..
Our manager is making increasingly erratic statements like how we sacrifice the Champions League for FA Cup success. Blackburn, Man Utd away 0-4 and 0-2 , Sunderland , Stoke... was that the success he speaks of ? If we qualify for the Champions League 2015-16 I haven't aclue who we will play but I can confidentially predict when we will get knocked out and that will be nothing to do with FA Cup priorities.
We come on this forum because we are loyal Arsenal supporters, I would like nothing better than coming on here reading and writing posts about a competitive Arsenal FC (no one demands success only demand is to be competitive) . I live in a City where demands for success by "fans" often means changing sport and jumping on successful bandwagons. I have no interest in that for myself or my club.
We are tired of mediocrity , tired of excuses , tired of promises, tired of losing our better players, tired of having our passion for our team drained to a point of loving our club but not caring about our results , we are tired of so much and because of that we are tired of Arsene Wenger as our manager.. He is manager and everything is his responsibility. .
CloakedGooner wrote:I know a lot of you have very anti wenger views, but can I ask a legit question out of curiosity? IF wenger did make the right purchases in the summer, and we win the title, how would you feel about the man? Would you be willing to give him a second chance? What would he have to do to make up for those eight trophieless years?
Not entirely sure if you're on a wind up or not so i'll answer honestly for now. I want Wenger gone he will never win another Championship with Arsenal his tactics are dated and even his buys are on the most part average to poor, he plays players out of position and fails to get the best out of them and quite frankly he is not fit to be Arsenal manager anymore IMO.
Personally I don't give a fuck about top 4 or European Cup qualification as we stand no chance of winning the damn competition and are further away from it as we have EVER been. I'm a football fan not an accounts fan so the money of top 4 means fuck all to me I want to win the league ANYTHING else is failure.
To answer your question I f by a miracle we were to win the league with Wenger I would happily admit I was wrong but unfortunately that will never happen
I agree with you about the bank account. If it could be proved that it's just sitting in an account like some people suggest, I would be really pissed off. I simply can't believe the manager wouldn't use the money if we had it. After all, why would it benefit him to leave it in the clubs bank account? Sadly we cannot know for sure.
However im sure we both hope you will feel the need to admit you were wrong about us being champions sometime in the near future
CloakedGooner wrote:I know a lot of you have very anti wenger views, but can I ask a legit question out of curiosity? IF wenger did make the right purchases in the summer, and we win the title, how would you feel about the man? Would you be willing to give him a second chance? What would he have to do to make up for those eight trophieless years?
Not entirely sure if you're on a wind up or not so i'll answer honestly for now. I want Wenger gone he will never win another Championship with Arsenal his tactics are dated and even his buys are on the most part average to poor, he plays players out of position and fails to get the best out of them and quite frankly he is not fit to be Arsenal manager anymore IMO.
Personally I don't give a fuck about top 4 or European Cup qualification as we stand no chance of winning the damn competition and are further away from it as we have EVER been. I'm a football fan not an accounts fan so the money of top 4 means fuck all to me I want to win the league ANYTHING else is failure.
To answer your question I f by a miracle we were to win the league with Wenger I would happily admit I was wrong but unfortunately that will never happen
I really, really don't understand this line of "reasoning"?
Of course it's big to admit you were "wrong" but how can Wenger winning a single league title in the space of a 12 year period prove his critics wrong? No way does it do so. One league title in 12 years, especially given all the appalling failures preceding it, is a horrendous record. I'd also like to remind everyone what happened the last time Wenker won a league title - he lorded it over all Goonerdom, started playing God and lived off that league title for a whole decade
Even if by some miracle, the stars all aligned, pigs flew and Whitney Houston rose from the dead to sing a song about "mental strength" I would still want him gone because it's a ridiculous situation that a single league title in 12 years would be enough to "prove critics wrong"....
flash gunner wrote:You're quoting a blog as undeniable proof? How do you know those figures are correct? I
tchy stop believing everything you read on the Internet if it backs up your slanted view on things
Oh dear you've had a mare! That "blog" is written by a former investment banker, using DIRECT access to Arsenal accounts. It isn't an opinion piece, they are analysed figures from the Arsenal PLC balance sheet -which is in the official domain. So, the part that is, you know, "in black and white" is the bit on the Balance sheet that details the cash reserves (i.e. money sitting around in an account). It isn't made up by anyone, they are Arsenal's own figures
But yeah sure. It's just "some blog"
Do they teach finance in Essex?
flash gunner wrote:You're quoting a blog as undeniable proof? How do you know those figures are correct? I
tchy stop believing everything you read on the Internet if it backs up your slanted view on things
Oh dear you've had a mare! That "blog" is written by a former investment banker, using DIRECT access to Arsenal accounts. It isn't an opinion piece, they are analysed figures from the Arsenal PLC balance sheet -which is in the official domain. So, the part that is, you know, "in black and white" is the bit on the Balance sheet that details the cash reserves (i.e. money sitting around in an account). It isn't made up by anyone, they are Arsenal's own figures
But yeah sure. It's just "some blog"
Do they teach finance in Essex?
How do you even know he was an investment banker? You can't pick and chose who you believe off the internet because it suits you. My understanding is Arsenals accounts are available to everyone if they want or can be bothered to read/study them (I cant)
Itchy instead of reading and believing anyone who vaguely goes along with you train of thought, bumming up anyone who agrees with you and throwing insults at those that don't YOU get the figures, study them and give us your view then I'd be happy to read it not some semi anonymous bloke off the internet
CloakedGooner wrote:I know a lot of you have very anti wenger views, but can I ask a legit question out of curiosity? IF wenger did make the right purchases in the summer, and we win the title, how would you feel about the man? Would you be willing to give him a second chance? What would he have to do to make up for those eight trophieless years?
Not entirely sure if you're on a wind up or not so i'll answer honestly for now. I want Wenger gone he will never win another Championship with Arsenal his tactics are dated and even his buys are on the most part average to poor, he plays players out of position and fails to get the best out of them and quite frankly he is not fit to be Arsenal manager anymore IMO.
Personally I don't give a fuck about top 4 or European Cup qualification as we stand no chance of winning the damn competition and are further away from it as we have EVER been. I'm a football fan not an accounts fan so the money of top 4 means fuck all to me I want to win the league ANYTHING else is failure.
To answer your question I f by a miracle we were to win the league with Wenger I would happily admit I was wrong but unfortunately that will never happen
I agree with you about the bank account. If it could be proved that it's just sitting in an account like some people suggest, I would be really pissed off. I simply can't believe the manager wouldn't use the money if we had it. After all, why would it benefit him to leave it in the clubs bank account? Sadly we cannot know for sure.
However im sure we both hope you will feel the need to admit you were wrong about us being champions sometime in the near future
yes we can, the manager when asked what he would do with a load of transfer money said he would give it back, cant remeber exact amount, but its a oft repeated and easilt sourced quote. that answers that question.
the reason behind that is his ego/project, firstly project youth, bringing through avergae joes giving them big contracts in the hope they come good, that he has finally started to abandon, thats what lumbered us with diaby, BN52, denilson, sensderos, djorrou etc for years.
his ego comes into it in wanting to prove all his critics wrong, that rather than take on board what they are saying, like almunia isnt good enough for example, or we need a strong ball winning DM, he comes out with his 'havent worked a day in football' quotes, and persisitently and rigidly carries on doing what he has in the vain hope he will prove his critics wrong. failing to replace RVP or adebayor even, and lack of defnsive midfield and the other neglected areas of the squad that have been clear for years (lack of replacement for mad jens) are evidence enough of this.
flash gunner wrote:You're quoting a blog as undeniable proof? How do you know those figures are correct? I
tchy stop believing everything you read on the Internet if it backs up your slanted view on things
Oh dear you've had a mare! That "blog" is written by a former investment banker, using DIRECT access to Arsenal accounts. It isn't an opinion piece, they are analysed figures from the Arsenal PLC balance sheet -which is in the official domain. So, the part that is, you know, "in black and white" is the bit on the Balance sheet that details the cash reserves (i.e. money sitting around in an account). It isn't made up by anyone, they are Arsenal's own figures
But yeah sure. It's just "some blog"
Do they teach finance in Essex?
How do you even know he was an investment banker? You can't pick and chose who you believe off the internet because it suits you. My understanding is Arsenals accounts are available to everyone if they want or can be bothered to read/study them (I cant)
Itchy instead of reading and believing anyone who vaguely goes along with you train of thought, bumming up anyone who agrees with you and throwing insults at those that don't YOU get the figures, study them and give us your view then I'd be happy to read it not some semi anonymous bloke off the internet
flash i fear ur baba baiting/dislike is cloudinmgn the issue that AW sats on scrooge mcduck levels of cash.
flash gunner wrote:You're quoting a blog as undeniable proof? How do you know those figures are correct? I
tchy stop believing everything you read on the Internet if it backs up your slanted view on things
Oh dear you've had a mare! That "blog" is written by a former investment banker, using DIRECT access to Arsenal accounts. It isn't an opinion piece, they are analysed figures from the Arsenal PLC balance sheet -which is in the official domain. So, the part that is, you know, "in black and white" is the bit on the Balance sheet that details the cash reserves (i.e. money sitting around in an account). It isn't made up by anyone, they are Arsenal's own figures
But yeah sure. It's just "some blog"
Do they teach finance in Essex?
How do you even know he was an investment banker? You can't pick and chose who you believe off the internet because it suits you. My understanding is Arsenals accounts are available to everyone if they want or can be bothered to read/study them (I cant)
Itchy instead of reading and believing anyone who vaguely goes along with you train of thought, bumming up anyone who agrees with you and throwing insults at those that don't YOU get the figures, study them and give us your view then I'd be happy to read it not some semi anonymous bloke off the internet
flash i fear ur baba baiting/dislike is cloudinmgn the issue that AW sats on scrooge mcduck levels of cash.
maybe it is mate but one of the things that piss me off is blogs (even more than Baba) and people directly quoting from them as if they are the truth. This is the internet 3/4 of the stuff on it that's isnt porn is utter bollocks. We used to have an AKB poster on here called piresistable who did exactly the same thing and he pissed me off too. This forum is about opinions of people who post on it not other people indirectly IMO. You can't say 'you're talking shit and here's someone else to prove it'
Getting back to the subject I think it's clearly obvious we have cash by the fees for Ozil and Sanchez don't even trust Wenger anymore with the remainder of the cash either
Baffled by the quote from Wenger that '72 points will get 4th spot', but it does underline his mediocre ambitions.
He is saying its cool to take 21 points from the last 33, or we can afford to lose 4 from the last 11 games and should still attain our goal.
Personally I would say to the players we want to get 84 points, that is try to win the final 11 games and lets see where that takes us.
It says everything you need to know about Wengers style of management, and the stagnancy of ambition at board level. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... ances.html
pisses off to Manchester after only one good season for us. Obviously we should ideally have more depth to the squad so we can cope with a few players leaving. But these guys were (are) world beaters, and any team would miss them. We also lost a lot of other key players around this time. Ones like Nasri who left purely for money. Not much wenger can do about a lot of this, in modern football if a player wants to go, they go. These players left for their own reasons, ranging from wanting to play for their boyhood heroes, to being plain greedy 
No way does it do so. One league title in 12 years, especially given all the appalling failures preceding it, is a horrendous record. I'd also like to remind everyone what happened the last time Wenker won a league title - he lorded it over all Goonerdom, started playing God and lived off that league title for a whole decade 
maybe it is mate but one of the things that piss me off is blogs (even more than Baba) and people directly quoting from them as if they are the truth. This is the internet 3/4 of the stuff on it that's isnt porn is utter bollocks. We used to have an AKB poster on here called piresistable who did exactly the same thing and he pissed me off too. This forum is about opinions of people who post on it not other people indirectly IMO. You can't say 'you're talking shit and here's someone else to prove it'
