THE WENGER THREAD

[rodders999]

It's also realistically the best we can hope for with Wenger.

Agree with this, but would go even further by stating that Arsenal finishing 2nd under Wenger is us vastly over achieving while the club is under his stewardship. Probably still find a way to cock it up mind so normal service may be resumed by season end.

[BFG4]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/tv-show ... john-cross

Wenger's bum buddy is at it again. Easy question to Cross, does that mean that Wenger will be at the club until he dies because he aint ever winnign the title again, regardless of what investment is put into the side.

[IW8Goalmachine]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/tv-show ... john-cross

Wenger's bum buddy is at it again. Easy question to Cross, does that mean that Wenger will be at the club until he dies because he aint ever winnign the title again, regardless of what investment is put into the side.

the comments under it are f**king enraging

[DB10GOONER]

This obsession with the points total strikes me as people being very selective and subjective about their argument regarding progress. The points total is only relevant to the season that the points are earned in. You can technically win the PL with less points than got you to 2nd or 3rd the season before - depending on how other teams do. So for me it's down to where you finish. If you finish 4th and then the following season you finish 2nd then you have made progress and only an absolute moron could not see that.

Therefore if we retain the FA cup and finish second then yes we have made progress.

The problem is it's progress within a restricted area; that of the mythical "Top Four Finish". Second place is not champions and finishing 2nd is still just another place within that top four. It's also not good enough that a manager that takes home £7million a year (now £8million) hasn't won even one title in the last 10 years. So whilst it's progress, it is still (after all these years) not good enough.

It's also realistically the best we can hope for with Wenger.

So are you saying that, for example, finishing 4th in a truly competitive high quality league, is worse than finishing 2nd in a weak league ? I can see what you are saying about looking at points accumulation is very selective, but then you cite finishing position as a measuring point when it too is subjective and fails to consider the level of quality of our team or of our opponents

Well, you've taken an extreme example but still I'd say yes. If by finishing 4th you don't get into the CL but by finishing 2nd you do, then surely finishing 4th is worse. The quality of the league has nothing to do with it as you can only progress within that league and you can only play the teams in front of you. Every team in that league will face the same teams at what ever level of quality they are at. For me points is subjective, overall finishing place is objective. You finish in relation to the teams in the league that season, not in relation to the teams in another hypothetically "better quality" season.

But I do qualify this by again saying, that perceived "progress" is within the confines of the catch-all phrase "Top Four". And so whilst it is progress in the plainest definition of the word it is still not good enough for a club that pays a manager £7million+ a year over a decade and charges the highest ticket prices in the PL. We can't win it every year, accepted. But we should have won it TWICE in the last decade and didn't because of Wenger. Can anyone honestly see us winning the PL anytime soon whilst Wenger makes the same mistakes over and over again? I can't.

[DB10GOONER]

It's also realistically the best we can hope for with Wenger.

Agree with this, but would go even further by stating that Arsenal finishing 2nd under Wenger is us vastly over achieving while the club is under his stewardship. Probably still find a way to cock it up mind so normal service may be resumed by season end.

Agreed also. I have been under the impression for a couple of years that we have almost been winning games in spite of Arsene rather than because of him. Even the FA Cup. He fucks with the team and we just about win games that we should walk through.

TBH I'd be surprised if we do actually attain 2nd this year....

[augie]

This obsession with the points total strikes me as people being very selective and subjective about their argument regarding progress. The points total is only relevant to the season that the points are earned in. You can technically win the PL with less points than got you to 2nd or 3rd the season before - depending on how other teams do. So for me it's down to where you finish. If you finish 4th and then the following season you finish 2nd then you have made progress and only an absolute moron could not see that.

Therefore if we retain the FA cup and finish second then yes we have made progress.

The problem is it's progress within a restricted area; that of the mythical "Top Four Finish". Second place is not champions and finishing 2nd is still just another place within that top four. It's also not good enough that a manager that takes home £7million a year (now £8million) hasn't won even one title in the last 10 years. So whilst it's progress, it is still (after all these years) not good enough.

It's also realistically the best we can hope for with Wenger.

So are you saying that, for example, finishing 4th in a truly competitive high quality league, is worse than finishing 2nd in a weak league ? I can see what you are saying about looking at points accumulation is very selective, but then you cite finishing position as a measuring point when it too is subjective and fails to consider the level of quality of our team or of our opponents

Well, you've taken an extreme example but still I'd say yes. If by finishing 4th you don't get into the CL but by finishing 2nd you do, then surely finishing 4th is worse. The quality of the league has nothing to do with it as you can only progress within that league and you can only play the teams in front of you. Every team in that league will face the same teams at what ever level of quality they are at. For me points is subjective, overall finishing place is objective. You finish in relation to the teams in the league that season, not in relation to the teams in another hypothetically "better quality" season.

But I do qualify this by again saying, that perceived "progress" is within the confines of the catch-all phrase "Top Four". And so whilst it is progress in the plainest definition of the word it is still not good enough for a club that pays a manager £7million+ a year over a decade and charges the highest ticket prices in the PL. We can't win it every year, accepted. But we should have won it TWICE in the last decade and didn't because of Wenger. Can anyone honestly see us winning the PL anytime soon whilst Wenger makes the same mistakes over and over again? I can't.

So to follow through your thought process, does that mean that our performance in this seasons champions league is no better or no worse than last season ? Last season we had napoli and marseille in the group before we were knocked out by reigning champions bayern, whilst this season we had anderlecht and galatasary before being knocked out at the same stage by might monaco - doesnt feel that we performed as well this season does it ?

[Theoperator]

May have been posted elsewhere by Wenger quoted yesterday "you dont change a team unbeaten in 8 games!"

So how do you explain changing both the backs and GK in the Semi final of the cup, especially when one hasnt played a game competitively for 3 months and had a prospect of 120 minutes play .

I also notice thats the second match that we havent had subs till the 80th minute. Can somone wake him up please at 70. Its a joke.

[DB10GOONER]

This obsession with the points total strikes me as people being very selective and subjective about their argument regarding progress. The points total is only relevant to the season that the points are earned in. You can technically win the PL with less points than got you to 2nd or 3rd the season before - depending on how other teams do. So for me it's down to where you finish. If you finish 4th and then the following season you finish 2nd then you have made progress and only an absolute moron could not see that.

Therefore if we retain the FA cup and finish second then yes we have made progress.

The problem is it's progress within a restricted area; that of the mythical "Top Four Finish". Second place is not champions and finishing 2nd is still just another place within that top four. It's also not good enough that a manager that takes home £7million a year (now £8million) hasn't won even one title in the last 10 years. So whilst it's progress, it is still (after all these years) not good enough.

It's also realistically the best we can hope for with Wenger.

So are you saying that, for example, finishing 4th in a truly competitive high quality league, is worse than finishing 2nd in a weak league ? I can see what you are saying about looking at points accumulation is very selective, but then you cite finishing position as a measuring point when it too is subjective and fails to consider the level of quality of our team or of our opponents

Well, you've taken an extreme example but still I'd say yes. If by finishing 4th you don't get into the CL but by finishing 2nd you do, then surely finishing 4th is worse. The quality of the league has nothing to do with it as you can only progress within that league and you can only play the teams in front of you. Every team in that league will face the same teams at what ever level of quality they are at. For me points is subjective, overall finishing place is objective. You finish in relation to the teams in the league that season, not in relation to the teams in another hypothetically "better quality" season.

But I do qualify this by again saying, that perceived "progress" is within the confines of the catch-all phrase "Top Four". And so whilst it is progress in the plainest definition of the word it is still not good enough for a club that pays a manager £7million+ a year over a decade and charges the highest ticket prices in the PL. We can't win it every year, accepted. But we should have won it TWICE in the last decade and didn't because of Wenger. Can anyone honestly see us winning the PL anytime soon whilst Wenger makes the same mistakes over and over again? I can't.

So to follow through your thought process, does that mean that our performance in this seasons champions league is no better or no worse than last season ? Last season we had napoli and marseille in the group before we were knocked out by reigning champions bayern, whilst this season we had anderlecht and galatasary before being knocked out at the same stage by might monaco - doesnt feel that we performed as well this season does it ?

I see your point augie, but we didn't play against every other team in the CL competition. In the PL, we do. I look on cups and leagues (and shit half cup/half league things like the CL ) as different things. Cups can be very random with a freak result in a one off match deciding how a club does in the entire competition.

So I'm not sure why you want to follow my thought process into a different situation with different criteria?

[Gunner Rob]

since Mourinho returned to Chelsea we have played them 5 times

won 0
drawn 2
Lost 3

Goals Scored 0
Goals Against 10

maybe we should just try and score a goal against them next season?

[markyp]

since Mourinho returned to Chelsea we have played them 5 times

won 0
drawn 2
Lost 3

Goals Scored 0
Goals Against 10

maybe we should just try and score a goal against them next season?

When you think about it its even more pathetic,Wenker not only hasn't worked out how to beat Mourinho in 13 attempts but now add to that the fact he hasn't worked out how to fucking score either in the last 5,this has got to be some sort of record on both fronts surely??

[SteveO 35]

Season 2014/15

Games v Chelsea & Spurs

Played 4 won 0 drawn 2 lost 2


Progress...? Yeah right

But we have progressed!

Putting your sarcastic and negative hat to one side, can you honestly not see an ounce of progress relative to the last few years? - you asked me about progress, so I listed some but you haven't replied.

Where the fuck were you when Eboue, Denilson, Song and Bendtner were in the team at the turn of the decade? - honestly, we've progressed since then. I'm sure of it.

When your idea of progress, is relative to the Eboue/Song/Denilson/Diaby midfield then you know how desperate you are.
FFS with due respect, I'd say that Palace have a better midfield than that shower now. So is that the ambition our fans have? Shocking. As long as you pick the lowest common denominator - which you seem to, it's no surprise you've been banging on about progress every passing year! I guarantee that 5 years from now we'll still be in the wilderness and you'll be talking "progress"

You sure your name ain't George Osbourne?

ONE IKECHUKWU......THERE'S ONLY ONE IKECHUKWU

[GoonerMuzz]

I'm not sure we could ever quantify if we have progressed this season, personally i wouldn't say we've improved much if any, rather it feels more like to me we've stood still and most of those around us have regressed, some of them by a long way.

I know what DB10 means about progression being objective or subjective dependant on how you look at it but if we end up with less points than last season but in a higher position i'm not exactly sure what it says about us as a team in terms of progression.

I do think it means that either the other teams around us were worse than last season or the teams outside the top 4-6 were better....

[Swifty]

Points are irrelevant regards progression. It is table position that matters. Same as every Olympics you don't have to beat the world record to get the gold you just beat what's in front of you.

There is no question we've improved.

Whilst we aren't a chance of winning we might just have to accept that Mourihno is actually very very good - he is!

To me there are three clear differences - Mourihno is substance over form - Wenger is the reverse, Mourihno gets his players to play as a team and for him, Wenger doesn't instill that sense of comraderie to me, Mourinho bought Matic - we didn't.

I'm an unabashed fan of Mourihno - can't stand his club but if I could pick one coach for Arsenal it's him.

[Skooner]

Points are irrelevant regards progression. It is table position that matters. Same as every Olympics you don't have to beat the world record to get the gold you just beat what's in front of you.

There is no question we've improved.
Whilst we aren't a chance of winning we might just have to accept that Mourihno is actually very very good - he is!

To me there are three clear differences - Mourihno is substance over form - Wenger is the reverse, Mourihno gets his players to play as a team and for him, Wenger doesn't instill that sense of comraderie to me, Mourinho bought Matic - we didn't.

I'm an unabashed fan of Mourihno - can't stand his club but if I could pick one coach for Arsenal it's him.

I don’t agree that “There is no question we’ve improved”.

For many years now, even when we had a less talented squad, we have been capable of putting together superb runs of form during the season like the run we’ve been on in the last few months. The problem is we seem completely incapable of putting a whole season together. At the moment the only difference between this season and last is that last season we started well and led the league after Christmas and fell away and this season we started poorly and then have come on strong. The end result will be the same i.e. a top four finish without a genuine title challenge.

I’d certainly agree we have our best squad of players for quite some time with regards ability, but the same overall failings are there and until we do put a complete season together I would say any progress is negligible.


This team is yet to prove it can deliver when it really matters.

[DB10GOONER]

I get the feeling that some people on here are over-reading the term "made progress" as if anyone that says "we've made progress" is also saying "well that's that - we are now great and everything is fine".

That (for me anyway) couldn't be further from the truth.

I do think we have made progress, in the most basic definition of that term, but progress comparable with trying to fill a large empty bucket with water by using a teaspoon. We've thrown a couple teaspoons of water in there, so have made progress, but we are nowhere near filling that bucket.