THE WENGER THREAD

[Blood_Gooner]

How exactly have we improved? We are even further away from winning the title this season than last. Actually, we were never in contention this season, so what improvement are folks on about? At least last season we were actually leaders before falling off. Reverse this season, where we started a bit shit, then picked up form, albeit never threatening the leader.

Fortuitously enough, whilst we've just about been holding our ground, the form of the usual suspects, who always finish ahead of us, has been dodgy. That has allowed us to look the better of the also rans for most of the 2nd half of the season. It's really that simple, tbh.

Also, for those trumpeting improvement, please remember that the season isn't over and we might yet end up in our usual position.

[Gunner Rob]

I would say we have improved since January in terms of our defence - we actually have a goalkeeper who now looks confident and a competent DM.

However despite having a reputation as an attacking team we have STILL not replaced RVP. Until we do so no real improvement will be made.

[augie]

Points are irrelevant regards progression. It is table position that matters. Same as every Olympics you don't have to beat the world record to get the gold you just beat what's in front of you.

There is no question we've improved.

Whilst we aren't a chance of winning we might just have to accept that Mourihno is actually very very good - he is!

To me there are three clear differences - Mourihno is substance over form - Wenger is the reverse, Mourihno gets his players to play as a team and for him, Wenger doesn't instill that sense of comraderie to me, Mourinho bought Matic - we didn't.

I'm an unabashed fan of Mourihno - can't stand his club but if I could pick one coach for Arsenal it's him.

Again to follow on from GoonerMuzz's post, if our points tally is not as good as last season, then doesn't a higher league position suggest that others have regressed rather than we have progressed ? You and others have failed to acknowledge that very relevant question - people aren't against the term progression in case it suggests a "we are sorted now", but are against the term progress suggests progress that WE as a team have progressed when all the stats say otherwise.

[You are my sunshine]

Does that mean if we get more points than the previous season then we have progressed, even if we finished 5th or below?
What if the previous years Champions get more points the following season but finish 2nd or below, still progress?
Stats will tell you want you want them to, the only one that matters to me is where we finish in the league and 2nd would be an improvement on 4th, ergo, next season improvement would be 1st...........

[IW8Goalmachine]

Does that mean if we get more points than the previous season then we have progressed, even if we finished 5th or below?
What if the previous years Champions get more points the following season but finish 2nd or below, still progress?
Stats will tell you want you want them to, the only one that matters to me is where we finish in the league and 2nd would be an improvement on 4th, ergo, next season improvement would be 1st...........

That's what Liverpool said

[Gunner Rob]

points do only say so much

in 1998 we won the league under Wenger with 78 points
last season we finished 4th with 79 points

probably what that does indicate is how weak the Premier League is these days contrary to what the SKY hype machine might tell you

[markyp]

all this talk of progress is utter utter bullshit,we have been flirting with a title tilt for 11 season now and havent won it,how the fuck is that improvement? progress would be actually winning the bloody thing,we are always so close to doing it or challenging that an improvement would see us win the league surely that would be the next step,we cant say weve improved when we are stuck in a status quo and have been since our invincibles,isnt that glaringly bloody obvious???

[Theoperator]

points do only say so much

in 1998 we won the league under Wenger with 78 points
last season we finished 4th with 79 points

probably what that does indicate is how weak the Premier League is these days contrary to what the SKY hype machine might tell you

Think you will find it shows that the top 4 or so teams have pulled away a lot from the lower and even middle ones, TBF its gotten pretty boring in that you generally know where you will be at the end from the start of the season.

Even if the league is utter dogshite the same number of points is still available.

1998 the difference between 10h and 4th was 10 points at the end of the season, last year 30 points difference, this season its 21.

In other words, as we know pretty much, money talks

[foxinthebox2001]

Looking back at the teams that started on Sunday, Chelsea had 9 players that began their first game of this season.
Costa injured
Schurle shipped out.

Our team had just 4 that kicked off against Palace, Kos, Ramsey, Alexis, & Santi.
Szczesny, out of favour
Debuchy, sub
Gibbs, sub
Chambers, squad
Arteta, injured
Wilshere, sub
Sanogo, found out.
One of the key elements in a successful season is a settled team, ok you can partially blame injuries, but there is enough evidence there to suggest Wenger did not know his best 11 in August.
Maureen did.

[augie]

Looking back at the teams that started on Sunday, Chelsea had 9 players that began their first game of this season.
Costa injured
Schurle shipped out.

Our team had just 4 that kicked off against Palace, Kos, Ramsey, Alexis, & Santi.
Szczesny, out of favour
Debuchy, sub
Gibbs, sub
Chambers, squad
Arteta, injured
Wilshere, sub
Sanogo, found out.
One of the key elements in a successful season is a settled team, ok you can partially blame injuries, but there is enough evidence there to suggest Wenger did not know his best 11 in August.
Maureen did.

There is enough evidence to suggest that le cock still doesnt know his best line up - changing ramsey to the wing again absolutely defies belief and is fcuking ramsey up as well as the team

[Gunnersaurus]

What's that got to do with anything (to fox in the box) players lose form through a season, new players take their place.

Harry Kane never started the first few games for Spurs, ended up being their best player.

Felliani was out of favour for United, ended up being their key player.

Mourhino knew his side because he's in a similar position to Wenger was in the few years previous to this where he has a first team and them back ups, there's no real competition for places there, for the first time in a long time there is competition here so it's not rocket science to figure out that he was going to take time to find his settled side and it's been especially noticeable because in the last few months the injuries have not been that bad so he's had more choice than usual.

[LDB]

Looking back at the teams that started on Sunday, Chelsea had 9 players that began their first game of this season.
Costa injured
Schurle shipped out.

Our team had just 4 that kicked off against Palace, Kos, Ramsey, Alexis, & Santi.
Szczesny, out of favour
Debuchy, sub
Gibbs, sub
Chambers, squad
Arteta, injured
Wilshere, sub
Sanogo, found out.
One of the key elements in a successful season is a settled team, ok you can partially blame injuries, but there is enough evidence there to suggest Wenger did not know his best 11 in August.
Maureen did.

There is enough evidence to suggest that le cock still doesnt know his best line up - changing ramsey to the wing again absolutely defies belief and is fcuking ramsey up as well as the team

Personally, I think Coquelin and Cazorla have formed a handy partnership in the middle of the pitch (backed up by results) and Ramsey has played well in parts on the right in the last few games.

You couldn't argue with Ramsey in the middle when he was in the form of last season however, when he's not at that level imo he's still a tad too undisciplined.

[StuartL]

Points are irrelevant regards progression. It is table position that matters. Same as every Olympics you don't have to beat the world record to get the gold you just beat what's in front of you.

There is no question we've improved.
Whilst we aren't a chance of winning we might just have to accept that Mourihno is actually very very good - he is!

To me there are three clear differences - Mourihno is substance over form - Wenger is the reverse, Mourihno gets his players to play as a team and for him, Wenger doesn't instill that sense of comraderie to me, Mourinho bought Matic - we didn't.

I'm an unabashed fan of Mourihno - can't stand his club but if I could pick one coach for Arsenal it's him.

I don’t agree that “There is no question we’ve improved”.

For many years now, even when we had a less talented squad, we have been capable of putting together superb runs of form during the season like the run we’ve been on in the last few months. The problem is we seem completely incapable of putting a whole season together. At the moment the only difference between this season and last is that last season we started well and led the league after Christmas and fell away and this season we started poorly and then have come on strong. The end result will be the same i.e. a top four finish without a genuine title challenge.

I’d certainly agree we have our best squad of players for quite some time with regards ability, but the same overall failings are there and until we do put a complete season together I would say any progress is negligible.


This team is yet to prove it can deliver when it really matters.

Very well put Skooner the Gooner

I think in terms of "progress" I personally, hope that Wenker now concedes that playing with a proper DM, in Coquelin, is giving the defence the protection it has needed ( and been crying out for, for years) Arteta and Flamini were just not up to the job, although Arteta forfeited his normal game to try and do the required job as best he could.

He may now also see at last that Sczeszeszesney as no 1 keeper was being foolhardy and that the defence has far more confidence with Oooospinaaaaaaa behind them.

Through sheer luck these 2 key area's have been improved upon, just wish it had been done sooner, along with the big physical centre back as Per has been a bit of an embarrassment.

If only he could make subs when the game needs them
Adjust the tactics depending on opposition
Get us to attack at pace and not just play keep ball with no penetration
Drop players who are not performing (Ramsey)
Stop playing players out of position (Ramsey)

Then next season I would have a bit more optimism about avoiding another groundhog day season.

[augie]

Looking back at the teams that started on Sunday, Chelsea had 9 players that began their first game of this season.
Costa injured
Schurle shipped out.

Our team had just 4 that kicked off against Palace, Kos, Ramsey, Alexis, & Santi.
Szczesny, out of favour
Debuchy, sub
Gibbs, sub
Chambers, squad
Arteta, injured
Wilshere, sub
Sanogo, found out.
One of the key elements in a successful season is a settled team, ok you can partially blame injuries, but there is enough evidence there to suggest Wenger did not know his best 11 in August.
Maureen did.

There is enough evidence to suggest that le cock still doesnt know his best line up - changing ramsey to the wing again absolutely defies belief and is fcuking ramsey up as well as the team

Personally, I think Coquelin and Cazorla have formed a handy partnership in the middle of the pitch (backed up by results) and Ramsey has played well in parts on the right in the last few games.

You couldn't argue with Ramsey in the middle when he was in the form of last season however, when he's not at that level imo he's still a tad too undisciplined.

I'm not one of those that has lost patience with ramsey but likewise I don't agree with shoehorning him into the team in a position that doesn't suit him. Cazorla and coquelin have (for the most part) formed a good partnership, so I agree 100% that ramsey doesn't have the automatic right to play in his more natural centre midfield position - however it also should be obvious that a manager should pick his best team and that does not necessarily mean his best 11 players, so he should be picking a more natural player for those wing positions. Wenker has never seemed to grasp the concept of different skill requirements for different positions, and his refusal to recognise that has continued into this season where we have seen arteta, ramsey, ozil and cazorla all played out of position (not to mention our full backs being played at centre back although that was by necessity), and for me that disrupts the balance of the team and gives us no width as well as overcrowding the middle of the pitch where our small playmakers need space to shine

[Swifty]

if our points tally is not as good as last season, then doesn't a higher league position suggest that others have regressed rather than we have progressed ? .

No not at all - the entire league could improve in quality or regress - the points tally is not comparable. As Gunner Rob pointed out - we won the league in 98 with less points than we got last yr - your logic suggests that last seasons 4th was better than the 98 title.

Points are apples and oranges year to year.

What we can compare is performance against the main 4 Chelsea/City/United/Liverpool:
13-14 P 8 W 1 D 3 L4 F7 A 18 D -11

14-15 P 7 W 2 D 3 L2 F11 A 9 D +2

That to me shows a significant degree of progress in terms of top level competitiveness.