http://www.onlinegooner.com/exclusive/index.php?id=615
usual thread starter… (posted by me on behalf of an offline gooner.ed)
Wenger’s trophy winning days are over? Suggests serious over-achievement this season. But the players know they can get a decent haul of points to keep them in contention. We’ve just lacked a couple of players this year that would have taken us over the line in spite of everything. I have to believe Wenger can still do it. If we brought in a new face I think we’d have a downturn for at least three seasons before getting back to where we are now – contenders. It’s the first time we’ve been that since 2005 in the Prem, so although we didn’t win the title, surely there’s hope now?
Has Arsene taken Arsenal as far as he can? (2/5)
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Peter Cavill
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I agree to a certain extent but (and it's a big but ) only if we have the money to spend. Whatever strength team you have got, if there is money available,it is not going to do any harm adding quality to the squad.
I think Arsene's transfer policy has generally been excellent. The profit we made on Anelka and Overmars was outstanding and Vierra and Henry were absolute bargains for instance. Like most managers, there have been mistakes. (Jeffers Wright and Wiltord spring to mind). However,in the whole time Arsene has been in charge I think we have only spent £30 million (based on all players bought and sold). An incredible record.
We have also been unlucky on occasions. In 1999, if Dennis had scored the penalty I think we would have gone on to win the double and dominate
the prem. for years afterwards.
Arsene took a while to build another winning team but the double team in 2002 and the "Invincibles" didn't need much strengthening!
Unfortunately we then had the Abramovich factor. This has affected Arsenal more than any other team. We had a team to dominate Man Utd at last and then this Russian billionaire comes along and changes everything. ( with a bit of help from Mike Riley ).
To compete with Chelski we need not only Arsene's ability in the transfer market to find bargains. We also need to buy proven quality players. Manure have the funds to do this (although mostly borrowed) and have managed to compete successfully.
The big question is, do we have funds available or not? Nobody really seems to know if we do or how much.
If we do, it will be interesting to see how Arsene deals with it, as it is not in his nature to buy really big.
I think Arsene's transfer policy has generally been excellent. The profit we made on Anelka and Overmars was outstanding and Vierra and Henry were absolute bargains for instance. Like most managers, there have been mistakes. (Jeffers Wright and Wiltord spring to mind). However,in the whole time Arsene has been in charge I think we have only spent £30 million (based on all players bought and sold). An incredible record.
We have also been unlucky on occasions. In 1999, if Dennis had scored the penalty I think we would have gone on to win the double and dominate
the prem. for years afterwards.
Arsene took a while to build another winning team but the double team in 2002 and the "Invincibles" didn't need much strengthening!
Unfortunately we then had the Abramovich factor. This has affected Arsenal more than any other team. We had a team to dominate Man Utd at last and then this Russian billionaire comes along and changes everything. ( with a bit of help from Mike Riley ).
To compete with Chelski we need not only Arsene's ability in the transfer market to find bargains. We also need to buy proven quality players. Manure have the funds to do this (although mostly borrowed) and have managed to compete successfully.
The big question is, do we have funds available or not? Nobody really seems to know if we do or how much.
If we do, it will be interesting to see how Arsene deals with it, as it is not in his nature to buy really big.
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QuartzGooner
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I think Wenger is still the man for the job.
He has been limited in transfer funds.
He likes mainly to develop players, but surely would have liked one or two more experienced names to add to squad.
Revenues will rise, and more transfer funds will be available in two years.
The existing players will improve too.
No reason to sack Wenger.
We are only a couple of wins away from the title.
In another season, with less injury, that is realistic.
He has been limited in transfer funds.
He likes mainly to develop players, but surely would have liked one or two more experienced names to add to squad.
Revenues will rise, and more transfer funds will be available in two years.
The existing players will improve too.
No reason to sack Wenger.
We are only a couple of wins away from the title.
In another season, with less injury, that is realistic.
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Red Gunner
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barnetgooner
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another mindless Adebayor-basher.... "stick Jason Roberts in this Arsenal team and he’d probably score 20 plus goals in a season".
What a load of rubbish, have Bendtner, Aliadiere, Baptista, Wiltord, Kanu, Suker, Reyes or Jeffers looked likely to get over 20 goals per season playing in an attacking Wenger team?
"I can’t remember seeing a top professional who has worse control than Ade." errr, Baptista perhaps? And in any case, who cares!? He has scored 30 goals this season ffs... people like this would rather have a striker with a perfect first touch and a 1:2 goals to shots ratio who scores 15 goals a season than Ade who has 1:4 (slightly worse than Ronaldo and Torres) and scores 30.
Ade clearly has his faults, and the amount he's offside is infuriating but most of the criticism is just bast on stupid, baseless expressions like "he needs 5 attempts to score" and "anyone could score 30 goals a season in this team" which are repeated over and over again until they seem like facts.
And as for the rest of the article..."Have Arsenal REALLY progressed over the last three seasons?" Of course we're not better than we were in 2005, it may have escaped your notice, but we moved stadiums in that time, which caused a significant restriction on transfer funds in that time.
and finally the football we play "papers over some cracks"!? What does that mean? The football we play has put us within 4 points of the financial monsters of ManU and Chelski; what cracks could it be papering over?
If you're going to come up with a controversial statement like "Wenger has taken us as far as he can" then at least base it on some decent evidence
What a load of rubbish, have Bendtner, Aliadiere, Baptista, Wiltord, Kanu, Suker, Reyes or Jeffers looked likely to get over 20 goals per season playing in an attacking Wenger team?
"I can’t remember seeing a top professional who has worse control than Ade." errr, Baptista perhaps? And in any case, who cares!? He has scored 30 goals this season ffs... people like this would rather have a striker with a perfect first touch and a 1:2 goals to shots ratio who scores 15 goals a season than Ade who has 1:4 (slightly worse than Ronaldo and Torres) and scores 30.
Ade clearly has his faults, and the amount he's offside is infuriating but most of the criticism is just bast on stupid, baseless expressions like "he needs 5 attempts to score" and "anyone could score 30 goals a season in this team" which are repeated over and over again until they seem like facts.
And as for the rest of the article..."Have Arsenal REALLY progressed over the last three seasons?" Of course we're not better than we were in 2005, it may have escaped your notice, but we moved stadiums in that time, which caused a significant restriction on transfer funds in that time.
and finally the football we play "papers over some cracks"!? What does that mean? The football we play has put us within 4 points of the financial monsters of ManU and Chelski; what cracks could it be papering over?
If you're going to come up with a controversial statement like "Wenger has taken us as far as he can" then at least base it on some decent evidence
I think we really are getting close to Arsene having taken us as far as he can.
I know that money is an issue, BUT if the board says to Arsene he has money to spend then he should f*ck off and spend it. Its not up to him to say to the board 'sorry I dont want to spend the money you are giving me because it might affect the clubs future' Arsene's job is to manage the team and not to manage the clubs finances, THAT is the responsibilty of the board and if they are not competent to do that they should get out! I cannot believe that the board keep telling anyone who will listen that Arsene has money to spend, Arsene is so stubborn he wants to do it all his way.
Im sure Arsene thinks, that there is no glory in getting results if you do it by getting players who actually have ability already and the world and his wife recognises that from day 1, but finding an unknown and bringing him on to be a world class star and getting results that way, then all the glory falls on him (ego).
Irrespective of the money we have to spend, Its know one elses decision but Arsene's to bring in only kids. Its complete and utter rubbish to think that we would not have been able to buy some experienced players (not stars) for the amount we have laid out on some of these kids who will never make it!
Another thing is Arsen's sh*t policy of wanting to get rid of anyone 30 and older and then complain that we are lacking experience and maturity, He is absolutely right....and it is coming from him
I know that money is an issue, BUT if the board says to Arsene he has money to spend then he should f*ck off and spend it. Its not up to him to say to the board 'sorry I dont want to spend the money you are giving me because it might affect the clubs future' Arsene's job is to manage the team and not to manage the clubs finances, THAT is the responsibilty of the board and if they are not competent to do that they should get out! I cannot believe that the board keep telling anyone who will listen that Arsene has money to spend, Arsene is so stubborn he wants to do it all his way.
Im sure Arsene thinks, that there is no glory in getting results if you do it by getting players who actually have ability already and the world and his wife recognises that from day 1, but finding an unknown and bringing him on to be a world class star and getting results that way, then all the glory falls on him (ego).
Irrespective of the money we have to spend, Its know one elses decision but Arsene's to bring in only kids. Its complete and utter rubbish to think that we would not have been able to buy some experienced players (not stars) for the amount we have laid out on some of these kids who will never make it!
Another thing is Arsen's sh*t policy of wanting to get rid of anyone 30 and older and then complain that we are lacking experience and maturity, He is absolutely right....and it is coming from him
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barnetgooner
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stixx; I agree that Arsene's policy of getting rid of basically all players over 30 is bizarre and misguided, and that he should'nt be worrying about the clubs finances cos it's not his job.
But don't believe all this "kids" stuff in the media; in the last few seasons we have signed Sagna, Eduardo, Diarra, Rosicky, Gallas, Baptista and Hleb, all of whom had decent experience in a good league or international level. If we sign a centre back, winger and replacements for whoever leaves of that sort of calibre/experience, we'll be fine. The author's idea of spunking £60m on Kaka or whatever is ridiculous
But don't believe all this "kids" stuff in the media; in the last few seasons we have signed Sagna, Eduardo, Diarra, Rosicky, Gallas, Baptista and Hleb, all of whom had decent experience in a good league or international level. If we sign a centre back, winger and replacements for whoever leaves of that sort of calibre/experience, we'll be fine. The author's idea of spunking £60m on Kaka or whatever is ridiculous
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Red Gunner
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But the board lied about our transfer funds, we never really had 70 millionstixx wrote:I think we really are getting close to Arsene having taken us as far as he can.
I know that money is an issue, BUT if the board says to Arsene he has money to spend then he should f*ck off and spend it. Its not up to him to say to the board 'sorry I dont want to spend the money you are giving me because it might affect the clubs future' Arsene's job is to manage the team and not to manage the clubs finances, THAT is the responsibilty of the board and if they are not competent to do that they should get out! I cannot believe that the board keep telling anyone who will listen that Arsene has money to spend, Arsene is so stubborn he wants to do it all his way.
Get your facts right
BarnetGooner - I suggest you re-read the article. The author (me) didn't mention Kaka or spending 60m on one player!
Mindless Ade basher?? Let's have a look at the players you mentioned - Bendtner - doesn't play enough games to score 20 goals a season, Aliadiere - likewise when he was here and plainly wasn't good enough, Baptista - was a midfielder not a striker, Wiltord - was played on the right for most of his time here and also played with Henry (who the ball went through 90% of the time), Kanu - not a 'striker' as such anyway, Suker - how many games did he play for us?? Reyes - a winger, not a striker and Jeffers - like Rosicky, is injured for 80% of the season, difficult to score goals from the treatment table. So you see, your argument isn't up to much either.
You don't have to be a top manager or talent spotter to see that Ade is a decent striker but he has some fairly basic faults. For me you only have to ask one question - would he be first choice striker at Man U, Chelsea, Barca or Madrid?? No, he wouldn't, because he is good but not that good.
I'm fed up of hearing from Arsenal fans who only see the world through red tinted glasses. Sometimes you have to be big enough and honest enough to see, and admit faults. You may be happy for the club to fight for 3rd/4th place for the next few years, me? I want to see us win things. We have been spoilt by Wengers early days but times have changed and we need investment to supplement the excellent work Wenger does with the talent spotting and the youngsters. If you seriously think that Arsenal will continue to sell 60,000 seats for the next few years if they aren't challenging you are sadly mistaken. Our lowest gate of the season came after we were beaten by Man U and our challenge was over, it was announced as a full house but anyone at the game could see there could only have been 54-55,000 in the stadium at best. If we allow ourselves to slip back into the chasing pack we may never reach the top again.
Finally, on the stadium fornt - it was an article around the playing staff, not stadium, hence I didn't mention the incredible training facilities we have either!!
TC
Mindless Ade basher?? Let's have a look at the players you mentioned - Bendtner - doesn't play enough games to score 20 goals a season, Aliadiere - likewise when he was here and plainly wasn't good enough, Baptista - was a midfielder not a striker, Wiltord - was played on the right for most of his time here and also played with Henry (who the ball went through 90% of the time), Kanu - not a 'striker' as such anyway, Suker - how many games did he play for us?? Reyes - a winger, not a striker and Jeffers - like Rosicky, is injured for 80% of the season, difficult to score goals from the treatment table. So you see, your argument isn't up to much either.
You don't have to be a top manager or talent spotter to see that Ade is a decent striker but he has some fairly basic faults. For me you only have to ask one question - would he be first choice striker at Man U, Chelsea, Barca or Madrid?? No, he wouldn't, because he is good but not that good.
I'm fed up of hearing from Arsenal fans who only see the world through red tinted glasses. Sometimes you have to be big enough and honest enough to see, and admit faults. You may be happy for the club to fight for 3rd/4th place for the next few years, me? I want to see us win things. We have been spoilt by Wengers early days but times have changed and we need investment to supplement the excellent work Wenger does with the talent spotting and the youngsters. If you seriously think that Arsenal will continue to sell 60,000 seats for the next few years if they aren't challenging you are sadly mistaken. Our lowest gate of the season came after we were beaten by Man U and our challenge was over, it was announced as a full house but anyone at the game could see there could only have been 54-55,000 in the stadium at best. If we allow ourselves to slip back into the chasing pack we may never reach the top again.
Finally, on the stadium fornt - it was an article around the playing staff, not stadium, hence I didn't mention the incredible training facilities we have either!!
TC
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Peter Cavill
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I agree with Tony C about Adebayor. It's not an issue about "ade bashing". I would love it if he turned into one of the great strikers,but I just don't think it's going to happen. Don't get me wrong, with his record he is definitely a premiership player and he would walk into most teams. However, I don't think he has the quality to be the main striker in a team that wants to win the Premiership or Champions League.
The worrying aspect at the moment is we obviously need to buy some quality players , as much discussed already, and not only up front.
However noises coming from the club are that we haven't got large resources to spend. This is made more problematic by the fact that we've just lost one of the best players this season, on a free. Not only have we got to replace Flamini but we didn't get any money for him either. Ooooops!!!
The worrying aspect at the moment is we obviously need to buy some quality players , as much discussed already, and not only up front.
However noises coming from the club are that we haven't got large resources to spend. This is made more problematic by the fact that we've just lost one of the best players this season, on a free. Not only have we got to replace Flamini but we didn't get any money for him either. Ooooops!!!
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barnetgooner
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Tony C; I apologise about the Kaka thing, was getting confused with this article by John the Gooner:
http://www.onlinegooner.com/exclusive/index.php?id=611
Anyway, I stand by my main point, if you wanted to say, "Ade isn't good enough to be basically our only striker for half of the season" then fair enough, but saying you could play Jason Roberts instead of him and he'd do just as well is absurd.
All of the players I mentioned; Bendtner, Reyes, Suker, Kanu, Wiltord, Jeffers, Baptista would (except Jeffers) be rated as better strikers than Jason Roberts and they all have played a significant number of games up front for Arsenal under Wenger, enough for both you and I to know that they would not score 24 league goals. Baptista, for example, may be better in midfield but he played basically all of his games for us up front (Cesc and Gilberto were always in midfield) and he started 11 league games for us and scored 3 goals, Aliadiere may have been mostly injured but he had quite a lot of chances to prove himself and didn't score enough goals other than in the Carling Cup.
The general idea that many Arsenal fans have accepted is that you can stick anyone upfront and they will score over 20 prem goals is simply false. And whether Ade would be "first choice" striker at the teams you mention I don't know, but I think he'd get into the ManU first team if he fitted with their system and he'd be, at worst, Chelski's second choice striker after Drogba.
I simply do not understand why people are singling him out for criticism (you list 3 main problems, him, the gk and Gallas), when surely a lack of a consistent strike partner, the ineffectiveness of Diaby/Eboue, Hleb's terrible goals return, Cesc's two goals since November and the unsuitability of the Toure/Gallas partnership are surely more pressing concerns!!!
I know that people will not want to pay the extortionate ticket prices if we don't win anything in the coming years, and we all want to see us win things, but what divine right do we have? Until the club is relieved of the burden of AG debt and Highbury square money kicks in (hopefully within the next couple of years), our transfer budget will not be close to ManU, Chelski and Liverpool; they can afford to spend £20-30m on players who flop and it doesn't really matter, AW prob should spend a bit more, but there's no way we can afford to do that
http://www.onlinegooner.com/exclusive/index.php?id=611
Anyway, I stand by my main point, if you wanted to say, "Ade isn't good enough to be basically our only striker for half of the season" then fair enough, but saying you could play Jason Roberts instead of him and he'd do just as well is absurd.
All of the players I mentioned; Bendtner, Reyes, Suker, Kanu, Wiltord, Jeffers, Baptista would (except Jeffers) be rated as better strikers than Jason Roberts and they all have played a significant number of games up front for Arsenal under Wenger, enough for both you and I to know that they would not score 24 league goals. Baptista, for example, may be better in midfield but he played basically all of his games for us up front (Cesc and Gilberto were always in midfield) and he started 11 league games for us and scored 3 goals, Aliadiere may have been mostly injured but he had quite a lot of chances to prove himself and didn't score enough goals other than in the Carling Cup.
The general idea that many Arsenal fans have accepted is that you can stick anyone upfront and they will score over 20 prem goals is simply false. And whether Ade would be "first choice" striker at the teams you mention I don't know, but I think he'd get into the ManU first team if he fitted with their system and he'd be, at worst, Chelski's second choice striker after Drogba.
I simply do not understand why people are singling him out for criticism (you list 3 main problems, him, the gk and Gallas), when surely a lack of a consistent strike partner, the ineffectiveness of Diaby/Eboue, Hleb's terrible goals return, Cesc's two goals since November and the unsuitability of the Toure/Gallas partnership are surely more pressing concerns!!!
I know that people will not want to pay the extortionate ticket prices if we don't win anything in the coming years, and we all want to see us win things, but what divine right do we have? Until the club is relieved of the burden of AG debt and Highbury square money kicks in (hopefully within the next couple of years), our transfer budget will not be close to ManU, Chelski and Liverpool; they can afford to spend £20-30m on players who flop and it doesn't really matter, AW prob should spend a bit more, but there's no way we can afford to do that
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QuartzGooner
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Re: Get your facts right
The stadium attendance is of seats sold rather than actual supporters present.Tony.C wrote: Our lowest gate of the season came after we were beaten by Man U and our challenge was over, it was announced as a full house but anyone at the game could see there could only have been 54-55,000 in the stadium at best. If we allow ourselves to slip back into the chasing pack we may never reach the top again.
Finally, on the stadium fornt - it was an article around the playing staff, not stadium, hence I didn't mention the incredible training facilities we have either!!
TC
Khalid
The board have not lied about money available. The club is two plcs both of which are legally required to publish accounts.
The figure of £69M was a bank balance, not a transfer fund, and was never claimed to be by the board, who have NEVER put a precise amount on the transfer funds available.
Half of that figure is aguarantee for loan repayments and cannot be spent on players.
The media too that figure and ran with a story of a £70M warchest, when the club never claimed to have anything of the sort.
....
barnetgooner - cheers mate.
The Roberts comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I really do think any decent striker would do very well at Arsenal. Ade is a good striker, but he's a good 'second' striker and not someone I want to rely on as being our main goalscorer for a season. Rather than us needing a strike partner for Ade, I think we need a number one striker who Ade will be the back up to. I thought it might be RVP but he seems to be very injury prone these days.
I think everyone agrees about Eboue.........quite why Theo didn't get a run in the side toward the end of the season is a puzzle as Eboue is poor at best and outright embarrassing with his acting and diving at times.
I really believe that centre back is our main problem, we just cannot defend against a big, bustling striker. Kolo has probably had his poorest season for some time (his standards are VERY high) but in Gallas I'm struggling to see what he really offers - he's a shadow of the player he used to be.
Of course we don't have a divine right to win things but it's so frustrating to be so close and yet so far. We have to remember that success brings in more money - look at how many Chelski 'fans' are crawling out of the woodwork! - extra investment can pay dividends if it leads to us being on TV more and going further in the CL for example. Money is tight but there is some available, as someone mentioned earlier, is it Wenger refusing to spend or the board not coming up with this supposed cash? I understand there is around 25m for transfers and wages - will be more if Hleb and Gilberto leave.
Wait and see again I guess!!
The Roberts comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I really do think any decent striker would do very well at Arsenal. Ade is a good striker, but he's a good 'second' striker and not someone I want to rely on as being our main goalscorer for a season. Rather than us needing a strike partner for Ade, I think we need a number one striker who Ade will be the back up to. I thought it might be RVP but he seems to be very injury prone these days.
I think everyone agrees about Eboue.........quite why Theo didn't get a run in the side toward the end of the season is a puzzle as Eboue is poor at best and outright embarrassing with his acting and diving at times.
I really believe that centre back is our main problem, we just cannot defend against a big, bustling striker. Kolo has probably had his poorest season for some time (his standards are VERY high) but in Gallas I'm struggling to see what he really offers - he's a shadow of the player he used to be.
Of course we don't have a divine right to win things but it's so frustrating to be so close and yet so far. We have to remember that success brings in more money - look at how many Chelski 'fans' are crawling out of the woodwork! - extra investment can pay dividends if it leads to us being on TV more and going further in the CL for example. Money is tight but there is some available, as someone mentioned earlier, is it Wenger refusing to spend or the board not coming up with this supposed cash? I understand there is around 25m for transfers and wages - will be more if Hleb and Gilberto leave.
Wait and see again I guess!!
I would point out that Ade has more goals then any other top flight forward in England. The any decent striker thing, well if Henry was only scoring 30+ and not 50+ for the invincibles, he can't have been that good 
Of course Ade misses chances and has bad games, Henry despite being a superior player and a different type of player missed chances and had bad games. The pointing out flaws is fine, pointing out that Ade has only done it once is fine but he has had an incredible season
Of course Ade misses chances and has bad games, Henry despite being a superior player and a different type of player missed chances and had bad games. The pointing out flaws is fine, pointing out that Ade has only done it once is fine but he has had an incredible season-
barnetgooner
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to put it another way, presuming RvP, Rosicky and Eduardo will miss large chunks of next season, and that Hleb stays, this is how our team is looking for next season:
Ade ?
? Cesc ? Hleb
Clichy ? Gallas/Toure Sagna
Almunia
I'd say we have to spend £10m on a centre back, £7m or so on a defensive midfielder, £10m or so on a winger; we'll be struggling to find the money for someone to play with Ade (unless Theo steps up) let alone replace him with someone better
Ade ?
? Cesc ? Hleb
Clichy ? Gallas/Toure Sagna
Almunia
I'd say we have to spend £10m on a centre back, £7m or so on a defensive midfielder, £10m or so on a winger; we'll be struggling to find the money for someone to play with Ade (unless Theo steps up) let alone replace him with someone better
